The Lesson Of Betrayal Is Self-Trust

Betrayal can make you question everything, not just the person who hurt you. We start with a deceptively simple line we heard from Krishna Das: “the lesson of betrayal is trust.” Then we pull it apart from every angle, because betrayal trauma isn’t only about broken promises, it’s about the moment your inner compass starts to wobble and you wonder, “How did I not see this?” 

We connect the emotional experience to psychology and neuroscience, including why rejection can register in the body like physical pain and why rumination kicks in after a major rupture. We talk about the nervous system, hypervigilance, and the way your brain tries to rebuild a sense of safety by replaying the story on a loop. And we get personal about how humiliation, grief, and a cracked sense of reality can turn into a long season of second-guessing your own instincts. 

From there, we move into the real work: self-trust. We explore how attachment and people-pleasing can lead to self-betrayal, why boundaries are not cruelty, and how learning to say no can be the cleanest form of healing. We also look at spiritual growth and post-traumatic growth, where pain strips away the illusion that another person or institution can permanently hold your center. If you’ve ever feared that opening your heart again makes you “naive,” this conversation is for you. 

If this hits home, subscribe, share it with a friend who needs it, and leave a review so more people can find the show. What’s one boundary that helped you trust yourself again?

Please email us at Gettoknowthedevil@gmail.com

Transcript

Catching Up After Two Months

SPEAKER_01 0:00

This is Cleveland. This is Lindsay. And this is another episode of The Devil You Don't Know. Uh, it's been a minute, and I apologize, and I'm gonna say it again. We're gonna be a little bit more regular.

SPEAKER_02 0:12

Well, that's what he's saying, but he never really follows through on that, so let's see.

SPEAKER_01 0:16

Well, he to in our defense, you know, I feel like Kenny Rogers, and I was just actually literally singing it as I was recording or as I was pulling out the recording equipment, and we've been on the road quite frequently. Uh it's been about I actually looked uh at uh at our at our episode log, and it's been about two months to the day since we dropped our last episode, which was March 26th. Today is now May 24th, so it's almost two months, and so thank you for everybody who continually downloads and listens to the show despite the long absence. But tell the folks, you know, we've been on the road quite frequently.

SPEAKER_02 0:50

We have been. Well, we went on our empty nest trip for two weeks to Nevis and then immediately came back and had a college pickup, and ten days later another college pickup, and now we're in Vermont, and yeah, so it has

Nevis Trip And Boutique Luxury

SPEAKER_02 1:02

been busy. But um, let's talk about Nevis for a minute. Yeah, let's talk about. Oh, that place was amazing. I don't even want to tell anybody where it was because there's only 18 rooms. But it was a wonderful place that deserves so wonderful.

SPEAKER_00 1:14

We can't keep it all to ourselves.

SPEAKER_01 1:18

You it might pop up. Okay, so we won't say the name of it, but it was awesome. You could say that it was Hotel Montpelier.

SPEAKER_02 1:24

No, it was the Montpelier Plantation and Beach Resorts. No, the word resort is not a little bit more.

SPEAKER_01 1:29

Maybe I'm trying to confuse, maybe I'm trying to confuse people.

SPEAKER_02 1:32

A resort is big. Don't you think something is big when it's called a resort? Yeah, but it had a resort feel. It was great. No, it did not have a resort feel at all. Have you ever been to a big resort? No, I never. Because I don't let you go. I never want to. Right. So it is not. It is a boutique hotel. It has 18 rooms, it's got 60 acres of property. I think there's more monkeys on Nevis than there are um people, but it was just a fabulous, fabulous little boutique hotel with the best service. Yes, it was. Everywhere you turned, 20 staff doing whatever it is they do, raking leaves, picking things up, cleaning, sweeping, singing, and making drinks.

SPEAKER_01 2:10

And Muffin followed me around, making sure that I wasn't working, was also a big plus. That is true. But you still managed to sneak away and work. One time, maybe twice. Uh what was great about it, and then we definitely jump into our main topic, is the to just to give you an idea of how great this place is, the four seasons is located on the same island. Um, and the four seasons, which is infinitely more expensive, there's some folks that came over from the four seasons that had stayed the four seasons and was like this place, because of the size and the intimacy of the staff, um, felt like even more luxurious than the four seasons.

SPEAKER_02 2:46

Well, the four seasons is a resort. I'm sure there's children, children's areas, I'm sure it accommodates far more people. And what was nice about this was just the level of service of from the minute you arrive, I swear I joked that they must like keep eyes on you on video with pictures for people to remember your name.

SPEAKER_01 3:05

Oh, I'm sure.

SPEAKER_02 3:06

Because every single person remembers your name after about five minutes of you being there. You're, you know, by the time you get up to have your welcome cocktail with the receptionist, the bartender knows your name. Caddy and never forgets your name.

SPEAKER_01 3:22

Beautiful, the beautiful young man, Caddy, and he has a great sign above his bar. What is the sign? The caddy shack. The caddy shack. Awesome place. Awesome, awesome place.

SPEAKER_02 3:31

Yeah, but really, really special little place, and twice daily housekeeping meant I never needed to clean Cleve's drawers off the floor because someone else did it for him.

SPEAKER_01 3:40

And uh twice daily. Twice daily. Twice daily. So the little bit of a transition.

Vermont Weather And The Pivot

SPEAKER_01 3:46

We're in Vermont today. Uh we're here for the Memorial Day week, and and I I just we you we're I just it's been interesting. How's every time we come to Vermont, it's it's interesting.

SPEAKER_02 3:56

It rains every single time or snows, and it's never warm. It's never warm. I don't believe that we have ever once seen the sun in Vermont.

SPEAKER_01 4:04

I'd say, you know, our friend Lane, who who always invites us out, was like, I think it's you guys, but I actually just looked it up and researched it. The hottest it gets in Vermont, at least this part of Vermont, is 81 degrees.

SPEAKER_02 4:16

But what about the sun?

SPEAKER_01 4:18

I don't know. I didn't ask if the sun ever comes out.

SPEAKER_02 4:21

Okay, because the sun is never out when we're here. I mean, it's just pouring rain here. So yeah. Okay, so let's let's

The Lesson Of Betrayal Is Trust

SPEAKER_02 4:28

get into it.

SPEAKER_01 4:28

So, what are we talking about today, Linz? And I'll let you just get into it and you introduce the topic, um, and we'll go in.

SPEAKER_02 4:34

So, today what I wanted to talk about was the lesson of betrayal is trust. Okay, so yeah, well, so I was listening to a podcast, the call and response podcast by Krishna Das, and he says the lesson of betrayal is trust. And you know, it sounds backwards when you think about it, right? Because betrayal to us typically means that someone has done something to us at heartbreak, right? We have fear, we're cautious around people because somebody breaks that trust. And so our natural instinct is to protect ourselves more carefully the next time and going forward. But what he meant by that was that he suggests that betrayal does not only teach us about other people, it teaches us about ourselves. And more specifically, it teaches us how to trust ourselves. And so that's what I wanted to talk about today is how the pain of giving ourselves away can eventually become the doorway back to our own inner strength, wisdom, and self-trust.

Why Betrayal Feels Like Pain

SPEAKER_01 5:34

Yeah. What's what's interesting is there's a neuros that neuroscience actually supports this idea of how deeply betrayal affects us. Um, there was a recent study from UCLA that found that the emotional rejection and betrayal activate many of the same brain regions as physical pain. And so I've actually sat down and tried to explain this to people, and that's why heartbreak doesn't just feel emotional. People literally experience heartbreak in the body. What do you think about that?

SPEAKER_02 6:02

Well, what I wanted to say is that physical pain is not an actual emotion. Right. Right. And so I think when you think about this topic, it actually refers to emotion.

SPEAKER_03 6:10

Right.

SPEAKER_02 6:10

Right. And emotional pain can come from both physical pain and obviously emotional pain, right? Or from relationships.

SPEAKER_01 6:18

And it's interesting because science does say that social rejection does activate the this this part of your brain called the interior cortex, the interior cingulate cortex, which is the same area in which we process physical pain. So I think what happens with this idea of betrayal and when people feel pain, it just no, who wants to feel pain?

SPEAKER_02 6:39

No, nobody does. Nobody wants to be hurt, right? And so when we think about like what does betrayal feel like? Right. I mean, you've been betrayed in your life, right? Everybody has. But you know, what did it feel like for you? And when it when it happened, right, I I actually want to ask you the same question is like, did you put it on the other person? And now, years later, would you put it more on yourself?

SPEAKER_01 7:01

Uh okay, so to go back to your first question, I will tell you, um, and I've been betrayed numerous times in my life. Um, and I don't want to go too much on a tangent, but I'll answer both of your questions, right? I'll say this uh betrayal uh cuts deeply uh because trust is you've you've trusted someone and you've let yourself be open by nature, right?

SPEAKER_00 7:22

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 7:23

Um when someone you love, when someone you believe in, um, and we open our hearts up to that person, you are absolutely stepping into great uncertainty.

SPEAKER_02 7:32

There's a level of vulnerability.

SPEAKER_01 7:33

Right. And when I offered up what I thought was honesty and loyalty and tenderness and hope, you know, I believed that those people that betrayed me, you know, and in this case it was my wife and then somebody who I thought was my best friend, um, it it hurt, you know. And so I asked myself a series of questions of like, how did I not see this? How was I so naive? Um, can I trust anyone again? Can I even trust myself? And I think that was the deepest wound for me, is I just felt like I was just like off base, right? Um, part of my work with working with clients, and I'm working with a couple of people who are kind of going through this right now, and and I think for them, it it's like the biggest thing that that hurts them is how did I fall for this dumb, for this dumbness, right? Like how did I how did I allow myself to get here? And I'll tell you to go back to answer your question, as a young person, I blamed myself, right? I blame myself. Sometimes, like I'd be like, oh, they betrayed me, but then I really felt like a fool for it myself, right? As an older person, I realized that I'm not in control of of, and I had a whole conversation with Lane about it last night. Um, that I learned from from somebody that worked in government, hey man, you know, you're not in control of how other people what they choose to save themselves, right? And and and sometimes people unfairly put their needs above your needs, even if it's somebody that you thought loved you. And I've come to understand that, right? And and so I think the way I think about betrayal now is as a 50, as a 53-year-old, is a 52 going on 53-year-old is like, ah, you know what? I gave that person the benefit of the doubt. It didn't work out.

SPEAKER_02 9:10

So, yeah, it's it it it just is what it is. And I think what happens as a result is that we start to judge ourselves, right? And we lack confidence in our own instincts, judgment, decisions, our own perception of ourselves.

SPEAKER_01 9:23

Yes. You know, psychologists actually describe betrayal uh trauma as uniquely destabilizing because it damages, to your point, our sense of reality and our sense of safety. And it's why people replay events over and over again afterward, because the brain is trying to reconstruct itself, you know, reconstruct what happened so that it never happens again, right? And and that's a fine thing, right? You know, Scott Galloway in his book Notes on Being a Man says we can look at things as losses or we can look at things as lessons. And what I've come to learn with betrayal is I'm just gonna look at it as a lesson.

SPEAKER_02 9:57

But I think we have to look at more most things in our life as a lesson. Right. Right. And we were talking about that yesterday too, and you know, just as a little segue, but we learn often just as much from things that are not positive in our lives than we do from the things that bring us great success.

SPEAKER_01 10:13

Can I ask you a question? Sure. How often have you found people that ruminate over and over and over again about the various betrayals that have taken place in their lives?

SPEAKER_02 10:25

Um most of the time. Right. I have very, very few people I work with. And and I'll and I'll say this, right? Because the people that kind of understand that other side of it, that I had a role, I can make a choice, I can do things differently, they don't last long in therapy because they do the work and move on. Right. It's the people that keep coming back week after week after week that are constantly rehashing and rehearsing, this is what happened. Oh my gosh, this is what happened, this is what happened, you know, and then rehearsing for what's gonna happen the next time. What's gonna happen? What would I do? And they're never actually in that moment of just being with what happened.

SPEAKER_01 11:02

Now, now there is a scientific reason for this because when you go through something that's dangerous or something that subverts your sense of reality, your emotional stress increases levels of uh level, it increases cortisol levels and activates survival responses in the nervous system. So that that rumination after betrayal is definitely linked to your to your brain's threat detection system. And it makes you on high alert for more betrayal. And it makes you on high alert on like is my sense of reality like distorted. So question that I have for you is do you think the hardest part of betrayal is losing trust in

Rumination And Losing Self-Trust

SPEAKER_01 11:40

other people or in losing trust in yourself?

SPEAKER_02 11:44

I think it's losing trust in yourself, is what's hard. Because if you trust yourself, then those betrayals, even though you are you know going to experience pain or discomfort and from them, right? The more that you trust yourself, then the more that you can acknowledge the emotion, pick up the pieces, and move forward.

SPEAKER_01 12:06

So so this moves us into the idea of you have to feel safe enough to give yourself away, right? So now that you've and so tell us more about that concept. What does it mean giving yourself away? How does that fit into betrayal and and also into healing?

SPEAKER_02 12:20

Well, what we do is we attach ourselves to other people, right? We attach meaning, identity, security, and love to other people. And so we become attached to them. And so what we do often is betray ourselves for that other person, for that relationship. And in a way, it's what we've talked about in the past of compromising our authenticity for the acceptance. So we lean on them emotionally, we let their approval shape us, and sometimes we hand over our self-worth to other people.

SPEAKER_01 12:51

Right, right. You know, there there is a an idea in the Bible, and I'm gonna probably paraphrase, I don't feel like researching and fact-checking myself in this moment, uh, because I know I'm correct in this, where Jesus says that I've come to divide and I've come to like bring a sword to a house to divide uh fathers from sons and mothers from daughters and brothers and you know, all these things. Because I think the lesson of the Bible, and I talk about it in my book, Waiting for White Jesus, is is this idea is eventually, here's the truth of it. Somewhere in our lives, people are gonna let us down. It doesn't matter, right? You you you you know, and and it doesn't matter how they let you down, as they are gonna let you down. One day your father's not gonna be there, one day your mother's not gonna be there, one day your wife, your your brother, your sister, either it's gonna be because of physical distance, it's either because they betrayed you through an affair, or some people might be, hey, they betrayed me because they died. But it's eventually understanding that by putting your trust in somebody else, that eventually, somehow, somehow, that is going to come to an end. But that doesn't mean that it's not right to give yourself away, but it means that when giving yourself away, that you kind of have to understand that you are exposing yourself to the possibility, or not even the possibility, but the inevitability of some kind of betrayal of some kind. What do you think about that?

SPEAKER_02 14:06

Right, absolutely. And it's not to say that loving other people or, you know, identifying with them is wrong.

SPEAKER_03 14:13

Right.

SPEAKER_02 14:14

Right. It's just that what it does is it nobody else can kind of permanently hold our center for us. They can't keep us grounded, they can't keep us tied to our authenticity.

SPEAKER_01 14:26

Yeah. And I think what Krishna Das said in that particular episode of Call and Response is that portrayal often feels painful because we realize in in attaching to ourselves to some to an idea.

SPEAKER_02 14:37

We've abandoned ourselves. Right. We have compromised things that are important to us so this other person will like us. And, you know, we very rarely find relationships where there's no compromise. Right.

unknown 14:50

Right.

SPEAKER_02 14:50

And and and I mean in not in a sense of like you like our compromise of you empty the dishwasher and I'll wash the pots and pans, right? I mean that in our relationship, I can fully be who I am and you can fully be who you are. And do we like all those things in each other? No, not all the time. You love them. You do. I love them. You do. I know you love when I come in hot. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 15:13

Oh, who's a harsh startup? We love it. Wow, what? It's better than chocolates and roses when you're just like, ah, what are you talking about?

SPEAKER_02 15:22

Right. But but you know, and that's the thing is so we we, you know, we kind of abandon ourselves and we compromise who we are often because we want to be a part of the group, we want to be accepted, we want to have friends, we want to have, you know, a romantic partner.

SPEAKER_01 15:38

But that so there was a young lady in that particular episode of Call and Response who asked that question because she had been in a group that she felt ultimately betrayed her. And what what what KD said at the end is that strangely that the realization that sometimes betrayal is painful because we realize we abandon ourselves is realizing that and understanding that is actually what sets us free. What did KD mean by that?

SPEAKER_02 16:04

By that, what what do you mean? Like by that by abandoning ourselves?

SPEAKER_01 16:07

We eventually by realizing that the thing that hurt us the most is that we abandon ourselves.

SPEAKER_02 16:12

Well, I mean, I think first of all, I think that that's a higher level of thinking for people. People have to understand that. Right. Right. And so if you can understand that, then you can start to look and see where you compromised or where you weren't so authentic. Right, right. And right, but you have to have that level of understanding, right? And the problem is that we, especially you and I, right? And I think most therapists, we work with a lot of people who it's like, woe is me, woe is me, woe is me, right? There's somebody in my own personal life who everything is everybody else's fault. Right, right. Right. And I'm not gonna, you know, put that person on blast, but it's like when they don't get the job, it's the other person's fault. When something goes wrong at work, it's the other person's fault. And I just can't imagine living like that.

SPEAKER_01 16:53

Here's here's here's here's my take on it, and I agree with you. And this is where I think uh uh Krishna Das was talking about that personal liberation, is at least this is my interpretation of it. I've had a wife who's betrayed me, I've had jobs that have betrayed me, I've had friends that have betrayed me.

SPEAKER_02 17:08

Family betrays.

SPEAKER_01 17:09

I've had family that has betrayed me, right? And if I was stuck on ruminating and and and asking myself over and over again, you know, why did I let this happen? How did these things happen? Why did I let myself get into that situation? I would still be stuck there, right? However, how I've pro uh progressed forward in life is understanding that, hey, maybe I compromised a bit of myself to be in a situation that wasn't working. I compromised myself to be in a religion that I obviously don't believe in anymore.

SPEAKER_02 17:37

Right. And I mean, who like the biggest culprits of compromise are people pleasers. Right, right. Like my yeses, you know, it's like you, you know, it's like everything is yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. And, you know, your your yes doesn't really mean anything if you don't know how to say no. And so people who compromise the most are often people pleasers. I don't want to do it, but I'm going to.

SPEAKER_01 17:57

Right. You know, I've had people be like, well, that's not like, you know, we we I had a client, you know, who had um who had an argument with a with a relative because they were like, well, this is what family does. We just stick with each other. Uh, you know, my son said something the other night that was kind of like the religious me would have been, well, well, I need to understand why this person cut their family off and I need to have an explanation. And no, you don't.

SPEAKER_02 18:18

You absolutely don't. It's actually interesting because this conversation that we're having right now ties directly into that. Right. Right? When people cut somebody out of their life, they trust themselves. Right. This person is not adding value to my life. This person is hurting me deeply, right? This person is impacting me from being able to fully be who I am and to live my best life. And so, you know, when you had that conversation, I was very triggered, right? Because I have my own family stuff. And I very much disagree. I think 100%, you know, you can, and I said this a couple of weeks ago. I did a meditation workshop with Clean Food Dirty Girl. And I said, like, if if we sat here and and people, you know, treated us the way that the voice in our head treats us, we would get them out of our lives if they were friends, right? But we allow that voice to live in us and talk us into all of these things that don't align with us.

SPEAKER_01 19:13

But there are a lot of people that stay in toxic situations. Listen, I'll use my last employer as an example. I am not mad at them, right? No. If if if it was up to me, I actually you should be grateful for them, right? And find gratitude in that. And I do, right? Because if it was up to me, I'd probably still be there and I would have had a long, prosperous career there, right? However, I could not, and I don't blame anybody, I could not do the job in the way that I was asked to do the job, and that was a hundred.

SPEAKER_02 19:38

Well, you could have, but it didn't align with the job.

SPEAKER_01 19:40

It didn't, and I would have betrayed myself. Right.

SPEAKER_02 19:42

But in the beginning, I bet you did betray yourself for many years until you were like, screw this, this is really messed up.

SPEAKER_01 19:49

Because I grew up in a family that was like,

Self-Betrayal Through Attachment

SPEAKER_01 19:51

we do what Jehovah says, we do what the brothers want, right? We do what's better for the organization. I grew up, I was in a marriage that was I was told that if I was a good husband, that I would have tolerated my wife's behavior, you know. And I grew up in corporate America, which is which is which corporate America, and there's a lot of you guys in corporate America who is if you want this job, if you want this paycheck, you have to sell out part of your way and you do it our way.

unknown 20:17

Right.

SPEAKER_02 20:17

Even, you know, even teaching is like that now as a segue, right? And then we'll get back on topic. But I've had a lot of clients We are on topic. I've had a lot of clients who are teachers, and teaching is not what teaching is used to be. Now, with all these tests and all these standards, you are expected to teach a specific thing all the time. And you know, and so the thing is people go into teaching because they like working with children, right? I love working with children. I wouldn't last 10 minutes as a classroom teacher. I would not because I, well, you know, I don't follow rules anyway. So um, but I just I don't, I don't like, you know, it's like I want to do something where I can be who I am. Right. Right. And so, you know, I've been lucky to start teaching meditation a bit, and I am like that's what I love to do. Like I can actually be who I am. I could say what I want to say, I could share what I want to share about my life. I can invite other people to do the same. And, you know, and even as a therapist, I can be who I am. I can tell people, you know, how I feel when certain things come up. I can also tell people, you know, when they need to shift their perspective a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 21:20

Right. And so here's the thing, guys, is we don't want you to think you're weak because you need attachments. In fact, John Boldby's attachment theory states that emotional bonding is the fundamental, uh, is the fundamental to psychological security. However, attachment theory also says that humans are biologically wired for emotional connection and safety through relationships. So I want you guys to understand, first and foremost, that becoming deeply attached to a thing or to an organization or to an idea or to a person is not a weakness. It's part of being human, right? But modern psychology also tells us that self worth. Can become deeply tied to another person's approval, and that's where betrayal sets in. Because our self-worth, and please listen to me clearly: your self-worth should never be based on what the crowd thinks about you. And the thing about betrayal is it exposes just how much of ourselves we've handed over to other people emotionally. And that's where the betrayal hurts. Like right now, at 53, I give zero Fs about what people think about me, right? I mean, I care about what you think about me, right? But I still, if I spent all day being like, oh my God, and you know this because you come home and stuff is still wrong sometimes. But if I spent my whole day saying, like, oh my God, oh my God, what does this person think about me? I'd be miserable.

SPEAKER_02 22:47

Right. Well, and I think it's that, right, a part of that is is questionable because it's not that you don't care what people think about you. Right. Right. You you do don't, you know, I always say I don't want my name in people's mouths in a negative way. Right. I don't want to be associated with negativity and doing, you know, things that are kind of unethical. But the thing is, is that there's a part of you that's like, oh, well, kind of like this is the way I do things and this is who I am. And so she married me. So if it's not done when she gets home, right? And and and I do, and I do that with you too. I'm like, the things that used to bother me when we first got together, I'm just like, eh, like, I mean, we can have a fight about it every day, but like at this rate, it's been 10 years. How many of these things are you really going to change? And how many of these things am I really going to change? And so it's also trusting yourself to, you know, a big part of trusting yourself is just being able to be who you are. The messy parts, the parts that say things they shouldn't say, right? Right. But it's just that you shouldn't hurt another person intentionally.

SPEAKER_01 23:48

That is, and I agree with that, right? So that idea. So please, please take Lindsay's point and in into consideration that it's not that you're going to be like our president of the United States who just is like, I'm going to do and say what I want, and I don't care who I hurt and I don't care what.

SPEAKER_02 24:01

But it is Well, that's like a lack of empathy. That's that's a much larger mental health issue.

SPEAKER_01 24:07

But it is also understanding that you, as my friend Kurt uh says, deserve to have main character energy, right? And if you're always worried about what other people think and what other people are gonna say, and how does this relationship or this rejection uh look upon me, then hey, you're betraying yourself. Esther Perell talks that says that that betrayal not is not only about breaking being um the trust being broken by the other person, but is disrupting the story and the reality that we have built around the relationship itself. And I think that is what hurts. Like when my wife cheated on me, right? And I found out and I got confirmation that she cheated on me with multiple people, people I knew, people I've shaken shaken hands with, yeah, that hurt like badly. And it shook me to the core where it made me feel like a piece of dumb piece of garbage for a long time. And then it took me in like years, like maybe three or four years, to realize that that wasn't my problem, that wasn't my fault. You know, I was blind, but like a great epic, like a great quote that I once.

SPEAKER_02 25:14

But that reminds me of you being in a situation where everyone around you knew what was going on and you didn't. And that has to be incredibly humiliating, too, which probably adds to the betrayal.

SPEAKER_01 25:22

So, how about this? There's a great quote that uh from a wonderful episode of This American Life that it's not that love was blind, but everyone was blind for the sake of love, right? And so, what that quote kind of meant is like everybody knew in this particular situation what that story was about. Everybody knew what was going on, but because acknowledging the truth of a matter would have destroyed that particular family, and because that family loved each other so much that they all participated in a in a great lie that was clear to everybody else because they loved each other so much that they betrayed themselves and they betrayed the idea of of what it meant to be true to themselves for the sake of love. And that is something that I will never ever ever ever ever do again uh for a job, for a woman, for a situation, for a friend. And that's what what I've learned about myself from my own lessons about betrayal.

SPEAKER_02 26:14

Right. And let's segue into this real lesson, you know, is self-trust. Right? It's not that we should never trust anybody again. It's you know, but it's more of we need to come back to ourselves. Yeah. Right. And that self-trust is not believing you're never going to get hurt again. It's believing that you can survive these things without losing yourself. And that's a big difference between the two.

SPEAKER_01 26:36

Yes, yes, yes. And people who trust themselves, and this is what I've come to understand, is I can love deeply without abandoning my common sense and my intuition. I can be open without ignoring red flags, because we all have red flags. Believe it is not, as wonderful as I am. Lindsay will tell you there are numerous red flags, even you don't have red flags.

SPEAKER_02 26:55

Okay, red flags are like when you should turn and run the other way.

SPEAKER_01 26:58

Trusting yourself, thank you, babe.

SPEAKER_02 27:00

Trusting you have some messy habits, but it is what it is. That's why I was so happy for someone else to pick your clothes up off the floor for two weeks. And so I love you.

SPEAKER_01 27:10

Ladies, if you want to save your marriage, uh, even if it's to another woman and they are messy, uh, go to Hotel Montpelier, where they have Montpelier, where they have twice-daily housekeeping.

SPEAKER_02 27:20

And they will clean your husband's draws off the floor.

SPEAKER_01 27:22

Off the floor. I left them there on purpose because I just was like, hey, this they gotta earn their money. Um, but it also means that you can survive disappointment, trusting yourself. It means that you can recover from heartbreak, it means that you can learn without becoming hardened, and it means that but that that it that we've taught us that it means that you don't you've just learned that to live with the suffering. And I kind of think that's what life is. Like trusting yourself, like Jason Pargin says this great in one of his TikTok videos that in your life, your life is going to come to an end at least three times, right? And what he means like that, that there's gonna be at least three situations, hopefully you live long enough, where something that you believed would never come to an end is unapologetically gonna just come to an end one day, and you have to deal with it, right? That'll be a job, it'll be a marriage, it'll be a loss of a loved one. And we, and those are all, as Jason says, they're betrayals. But maturity and understanding is is understanding I can live despite being betrayed. And I trust myself enough that this hurt, all these hurts that are inevitable, and all these betrayals that are inevitable, right? As my handler used to say in the government, that all these betrayals are

Boundaries Saying No And Culture

SPEAKER_01 28:34

inevitable, it's just learning to live with those betrayals.

SPEAKER_02 28:36

Right. And and what it can teach us is not paranoia, right, not emotional numbness, but inner grounding. Because ultimately trusting yourself means that knowing that even when your life breaks your expectations, you are still allowed to be connected to your own true self. You are still allowed to be connected to your own true self. Right. You know, and I think that's, you know, one thing that I remember in our relationship, and I, you know, it's it's funny because it's a story that I always, always remember and I always think about it with self-trust. And the interaction that we've had around this same story was when we were supposed to go out that night to the Harlem Yacht Club, and I hate the Harlem Yacht Club. I find the service is terrible. I hate the Harlem, the food is disgusting, the drinks are awful, and I just don't, I don't like to go there.

SPEAKER_01 29:22

You remember I kind of said that in front of the server and she got pissed?

SPEAKER_02 29:25

Yes, you did.

SPEAKER_01 29:27

I feel bad. I'm sorry. You know what?

SPEAKER_02 29:29

But it was it was honest. You're being honest. Um, but remember, we were gonna go, and I was like, you know what, I'm not gonna come, I don't like that place. And you got so upset with me, and you said, Well, everybody that we're going out with is gonna think you're antisocial. And do you remember what I said?

SPEAKER_01 29:43

I you well, you said the truth, which I understand now.

SPEAKER_02 29:46

What did I say? I don't care. You don't care, and that's fine. I don't care. I'm not antisocial, I just don't go to places that I don't like to go. And then you read the book, whatever, no more sky, and you came to me one day and you said, I have to apologize to you because I realize that you say no when you mean no, right? And that was like a big moment in our relationship because now you're like, no, she doesn't want to go. I'm not even gonna ask her.

SPEAKER_01 30:10

But here, here, I want to I want to talk about a cultural piece on that before we move on. And so for many, and I don't want to uh uh sound biased, but for many communities of color, and this is and when I sit down with a patient of color, this is often something they struggle with, right? Is there's this idea, and it's not bad, right? Because Europeans are very much more individualistic, and there's a lot of research on Europeans being more individualistic, that they understand there's this whole idea in Star Trek that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one. But there are times that the needs of the one may outweigh the needs of the of the many, right? And we have to understand in those points in our lives, what are they, right? My individual sanity is far more important than the sanity of the of the people I work with, than my job, right, than my family. I need to be sane. And if you have to put yourself first, right, and if I am betraying myself, if I'm sticking in a marriage or in a relationship or at a job or in a family, right, that is making me not be myself, then that's my fault. It's also not fair to the other people, right? But that's a topic for another day. Right, right. So research and resilience shows that people who are actually are actually far more emotionally adaptable than they think. And people and pain only feels permanent when we're inside it, right? What does that mean to you that pain only feels permanent when we're inside it?

SPEAKER_02 31:32

It well, in those moments when our emotions are running so high, right? Heartbreak, grief, it feels like it's never gonna go away. Right, right. We can't think about what's on the other side of it.

SPEAKER_01 31:43

Right, right. But research shows that humans are incredibly adaptable and are very resilient, are resilient and can rebuild. And it goes back to what Jason Pargin says, right? You will be be betrayed by something, by a circumstance, at least three times in your life, maybe more. But when you have the capability to start again, it's when you get caught up in that belief that I'm too stupid and I can't believe I let myself fall for this thing, and I can't believe that I let myself fall for this person. That is where you go wrong, right? And studies have shown that resilience and post-traumatic growth show many people develop stronger self-awareness and better boundaries after they've been betrayed.

SPEAKER_02 32:26

Yep, absolutely. Well, because what happens is you start to realize, right? And and and it goes back to some things that we've experienced even with the kids, right? When one of them was dating someone who was very clear they didn't want to be in a relationship. Right. You can't change what people want. Right. And so, yes, you can go ahead and betray yourself and think that you can make that person fall in love with you and make them want to be monogamous and make them want the same things that you want, but you can't. And so when something starts off with self-betrayal, right, why is it ever gonna end well for you?

SPEAKER_01 32:58

It's not, it's not. This person told you this as as Maya Angelou says, once somebody tells you who they are, believe them, right? And you're betraying yourself by trying to put anything else.

SPEAKER_02 33:08

Yeah, and I'll go a step further because I can't remember who said this to me, but people tell you who they are within minutes of meeting you. Right, right. Right? And and and they show that in their behaviors and they show that in the way that they act and the way that they interact with people and the way that they treat you.

unknown 33:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:22

So I want to ask you a question. Sure. Does self-trust mean that you'll never make a mistake again? No, absolutely not. What does self-trust mean?

SPEAKER_02 33:30

Well, for me, what it means is that I don't allow these things to fluster me. Right. Because I know that I'm okay with the choices I make. Right. And I always say that if you are okay with the choices that you make and the things that you say, the things that you do, all of that included, then it really doesn't matter what other people think. Right. It's about living authentically. I mean, sure I'm gonna make mistakes. Of course I am. I mean, you're going to. We all make mistakes, right? We all make mistakes. And so the fact of the matter is that we can't just let that destroy ourselves.

SPEAKER_01 34:04

And for me, self-trust doesn't mean that I'm listening I know I'm I'm human, right? I'm only there's a song by the Human League. I I want to sing it. And it's but I'm only human. I'm born to make mistakes. Uh, I will not sing it uh for copyright information.

SPEAKER_02 34:17

Right, but it's also this thing of right, we can always come back to ourselves. Right. We can always come back to ourselves. And we can always, we can always take accountability. Right. So if we do make a mistake and it does, you know, if we do unintentionally hurt someone else in the making of that mistake, we can take accountability. And that's that's the thing that that we don't think about is that we can rectify these things. And if someone else doesn't want to accept the apology, that's okay. That's on them, that's their stuff.

SPEAKER_01 34:42

And what did what did what did he say Gandhi said? Like when somebody acts like what they don't like, he said his well, no, I think Maharaji, Maharaji said it, that he's like, he somebody came to Maharaja and was like, hey, I've been apologizing and apologizing. Um uh oh, was it no, it was the Dalai Lama. It was the Dalai Lama. Somebody came to the Dalai Lama and said, Hey, I've been apologizing and apologizing.

SPEAKER_02 35:02

And they're not forgiving me, they won't accept the apology, they won't accept the apology. And what did he say? You didn't kick rocks? Yeah. He said he can go kick rocks, but it was through a translator.

SPEAKER_01 35:10

And he said, and and and KD asked the what what did what did the Dalai Lama really say? And what did he say the Dalai Lama really said?

SPEAKER_02 35:16

It was something like he can go eat shit. Yes, and he's like, and he was but the translation came across as he can go kick rocks. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 35:22

And and that's the Dal, he was like, Oh my god, that was the Dalai Lama, who's probably one of the holiest, righteous people on perth on earth, said that you that if somebody won't accept your apology, then they can go eat shit. And so here's here's this for me. So what self-trust for me means, and I'll go back to it, it's not that Cleveland is never gonna make a mistake again. It's not like I'm never gonna be betrayed again or I might not betray somebody. It's that I know that I have the ability to recover, I have the ability to learn, and have the ability to stay connected to myself despite those things.

SPEAKER_02 35:51

And loving yourself and and being authentic means that you get to forgive yourself of that and relieve yourself of the burden.

Spiritual Growth After Betrayal

SPEAKER_01 35:58

Let's talk about betrayal and what it means for spiritual growth.

SPEAKER_02 36:01

Yeah, so a lot of a lot of spiritual teachers talk about suffering as a kind of awakening. Not to say that, you know, pain is good and we need to have pain, but it strips away illusions. So it's, you know, the illusion that another person can complete us, rescue us, validate us permanently, or protect us from uncertainty. Right. And so while that realization hurts, it can also return us to something a little bit more stable.

SPEAKER_01 36:31

Right. I I grew up in this religion that was like, you know, which treated God kind of like this magic genie, which was like just trust in Jehovah and everything's gonna be all right, and trust in the organization that everything's gonna be all right. Believe in me, I'm with the high command. Um that's a lyric from a song. Like, but that is what I bel that is what I believed in, right? Many of us in our institutions, be they Republican or Democrat, we look externally, right, for salvation, right? We look external- Absolutely. And and and then ultimately, when Donald Trump lets us down, right? When Joe Biden lets us down, when Kamala Harris lets us down, when these very human people let us down, all of a sudden we feel betrayed and disconnected, right? These things don't validate us. No, they don't make us. We make ourselves. So beneath all of that, right, there's still something trustworthy in us, and we need to work on our awareness, our presence, our resilience, and our spirit. And the lesson becomes I can lose my image of someone else and still not lose myself. So somebody can let you down.

SPEAKER_02 37:38

Right. Well, and and one of the things that Krishna Das talks about with human relationships is that they're beautiful, but they're imperfect. Right. And people fail, people change, people act from fear, ego, confusion, woundedness. We're all going to emotionally react to things. But the one thing that's always there is that there is, we have awareness, presence, resilience, spirits, like whatever you want to call it. We that's exactly what he means when he says, I can lose my image of someone else and still not lose myself. And that's what I said, right? We can always come back to our true nature.

SPEAKER_01 38:10

What's what's interesting is in many spiritual traditions, be it Buddhism, Stoism, Hinduism, they all teach that suffering reveals where we are attached to the certainty of to the idea of certainty and permanence, right? And psychology even has a term for the positive transformation that happens after uncertainty or after suffering a post-traumatic uh um uh a stressful situation and calls it post-traumatic growth. And researchers have found that people who that many people emerge from painful experiences with deeper spirituality, with stronger boundaries, and a greater appreciation of life. Uh, a question I have for you is do you think pain reveals truth, or is there anything useful about betrayal and pain that can help us change our perspective?

SPEAKER_02 38:59

Yeah, what was the first part of it again? Just pain what?

SPEAKER_01 39:02

Reveal truth.

SPEAKER_02 39:04

I I think it depends on the situation. Sure, sometimes it can, right? It can reveal to us that we did abandon ourselves, right? But you know, some people are just mean people. We've talked about that. There's some people who are just not kind hearted. Right. And so, you know, that that, you know, I think it depends on the sit on each situation and independent independently.

SPEAKER_01 39:27

I want to move on and I want to open with a segment because this is what I felt

Love Again Without Abandoning Yourself

SPEAKER_01 39:31

for many, many years, right? Moving forward without closing your heart to others or yourself, right? One of the things, and I never thought I was gonna love again. Oh I thought I was gonna make love to women, but I never thought I'm glad you chose me. Oh, I'm glad you chose me. But one of the things that I like the big cleave rest his soul, wherever he may be in his journey. Um, he told me that that woman that hurt you is not all other women. And it is not fair to deny the many things and the gifts and the joys and the even the weirdnesses and the idiosyncrasies, as my boss used to call them, cleavisms about yourself, to someone who wants to share that with you. So moving forward, you have to move forward from betrayal without closing your heart, right? And so what pain whispers to you, and I can definitely tell you this is true, don't trust, don't open, don't risk. And that's one I still struggle with, which don't risk.

unknown 40:23

You don't need anyone.

SPEAKER_01 40:25

But a closed heart is not healing. A closed heart actually keeps you frozen in place, right? And I have somebody that I'm working with right now who's been stuck, and I'm trying to help that person realize, hey, you're you're frozen in place because Well, because what I tell people a lot is like if if you don't change things, things aren't going to change.

SPEAKER_02 40:45

Right. Right. And so, you know, like, you know, on the other side of it, right? The opposite of that, right? I I will love again, but I'll love consciously. I will listen to myself, I'll honor my own boundaries, I won't confuse attachment with truth, and I will not abandon myself for connection, right? Because that's mature trust, not, you know, not blind trust in others. And so that allows us to navigate our life in our own capacity more honestly. And so when we have those things, right? Because every time we meet someone, right, we have the choice to put out our expectations of what we need in a relationship and what we want in a relationship. And that other person has the opportunity to say, yes, I can give it to you, or no, I can't. And in that moment, if they say, No, I cannot give this to you, and you choose to make them try, you've already abandoned yourself. And that's what people do. People are so afraid they're never gonna find anybody else, they're gonna be alone forever. I'm getting old, I want to have kids. And it says, but to me, it's do you want to have all of these things that you want to have with someone who you can't be yourself around?

SPEAKER_01 41:49

Like somebody I know, they're married to a person that they don't trust. We know who I'm talking about. Oh, baby, I don't know if I want him to see what's in my bank account.

SPEAKER_00 41:58

Right. It's like, what are you talking about? What's what's happening here?

SPEAKER_01 42:03

But here's the thing that's that person's journey, and you know, if that's what works for them, that's what works for them. But Brene Brown work emphasizes that vulnerability is something is necessary for meaningful connection. Um, Scott Galloway talks about in his last chapters of his book, um, notes on being a man, that a real man understands that he's gonna go into a marriage and have this idea of what Scott calls negative equity, which is you are going to give more of yourself than you receive in return. That's with your wife and your children. And if you look to your children as your source of joy, oh boy, oh boy, my friend, are you mistaken, right? Because your job is not to gain joy from your children, your job is to teach your children to not be their friends, but to help them navigate their lives in a way that they become full, functional, independent adults who understand that they must lead themselves, right? And if you burden them with your ideas, you're already asking them to betray themselves. And that's not what a good father is.

SPEAKER_02 43:00

My whole young life I lived in a betrayal of myself. Right. And then I just picked up the pieces and was like, this is not for me.

SPEAKER_01 43:09

But if you go into anything, any relationship, and Scott says, because there's so much vulnerability in starting a family and marrying a woman or marrying a man or marrying, you know, whoever you marry, because there's vulnerability, you better be damn sure that you marry the right person, right? Because they are eventually gonna hurt you, right? You know, there's Terence Real says in his book, Us, that the person that hurts you the most is gonna be the person that you're married to, right? And he's that you don't, your real relationship hasn't started until you realize that the person that you wake up one morning is like, oh sh, oh snap. Right, this person sold me a bill of goods. And is realizing that this person that you're married to betrayed you the moment that they married you because they put on a fake version of themselves to get you. And that's when the work starts, right? So so psychologists have found that the emotional suppression and avoidance actually increase stress and anxiety, anxiety over your time. So closing yourself off can feel protective in the short term, but often it prolongs the suffering, right? Um emotional and avoidance is associated with higher long-term anxiety and emotional distress. So all I'm saying in a long-winded way is you just have to, if you want to heal and you want to live life, live it knowing that you have to give of yourself to others, right? But choose the right person. But never, never not trust again. But just be smarter. And I think that's the that that's the lesson of betrayal, right? Which is what you just said. Be smarter about the people you connect yourself with or the situations of the organization.

SPEAKER_02 44:36

Absolutely. And uh and and if this is a good time for you to wrap up, let's talk just a little bit briefly about how I think what Krishna Das says is

Resilience Takeaways And Closing

SPEAKER_02 44:45

right. Maybe the lesson of betrayal really is trust. It's not because betrayal is acceptable, it's not because pain is necessary, but it's because sometimes losing trust in an external situation forces us to discover a deeper trust within ourselves. A trust that says, I can feel pain and remain whole. I can love without without disappearing, I can lose someone else without losing my center. And perhaps that one of the hardest and most important spiritual lessons, you know, that we'll ever learn is this.

SPEAKER_01 45:16

And I think I want to go back, I want to revisit that part. I can lose someone else without losing my center. And I think that is the hardest thing about being betrayed. When you have a job for 40, 50 years, when you have an identity that is wrapped around a person or a job or religion or faith, and when inevitably that thing fails, because it is gonna fail. But I hate to tell you this, it's gonna fail.

SPEAKER_02 45:41

The one thing that I will say, and this is the last thing I'm gonna say, love yourself. So, whatever it takes, learn to love yourself. Do the things that you love, treat yourself with love, and then just let that radiate around you, and the right people are going to find you. And I really stand by that because I love myself, and there's very, very few things that I've done in the last probably, you know, years that I could count even, probably not even on one hand, the one time the time that I have done something, right, right, that causes someone else pain.

SPEAKER_01 46:11

And that perhaps, my friend, is the hardest and most important and spiritual lesson we will ever learn. My final thought on it is this what's hopeful, and I'm I'm a real big believer in resilience, and you know, I'm I'm I I participate with the Hope program, is what's hopeful is that resilience research shows that most people eventually return to emotional equilibrium after a heartbreak or a great betrayal. And many of those people become wiser, they become clearer about boundaries, and because they don't want to get hurt again, are more connected to themselves afterward. And I think that's the most important thing. As as Gabor Mate concluded his talk in the United Palace uh many months ago, for God's sakes, the most important thing uh in life is knowing who you are and being who you are, and being good at who you are. Thanks for listening. Um, this has been Cleveland and Lindsay, and we'll see you next time.