The Devil You Don’t Know
In The Devil You Don’t Know, Lindsay, Cleveland, and their guests discuss personal growth and development by taking chances and getting out of your comfort zone. Topics range from whimsical to serious and everything in between but are always relevant to growth and development.
The Devil You Don’t Know
Joy Is A Practice, Not A Prize
Joy isn’t a prize for perfect living; it’s a practice we return to, especially when life is messy. We dig into the courage to be joyful through a blend of ancient wisdom and lived experience—bhakti teachings from Krishna Das, the Bhagavad Gita’s call to renounce the fruits of action, the Dhammapada’s peaceful mind, and Galatians’ fruit of the Spirit. Along the way, we challenge the Western habit of conditional happiness—“I’ll be joyful when…”—and show why orientation beats control: act with integrity, release the outcome, and let happiness follow like a shadow.
We share stories from concerts and counseling rooms, where chanting, prayer, and mindful awareness make space for pain without letting it rule the day. Joy as devotion isn’t denial; it’s the daily choice to turn your heart toward love—recognize, allow, investigate, nurture—and to tell the truth with the people you live with instead of hiding in isolation. From navigating family friction to finding gratitude in small moments, we offer practical steps: offer a breath, repeat a mantra, have the tough conversation, and start again when the mind wanders.
If cultural scripts sell joy as performance and success, we argue for a rooted joy that grows like fruit—slow, steady, and real. Whether you’re drawn to chanting, scripture, or quiet meditation, the path is the same: stop running, be present, and keep coming back. Listen now, then share your takeaway with us. If this resonated, subscribe, leave a review, and pass it to someone who needs permission to rest in their joy.
Please email us at Gettoknowthedevil@gmail.com
This is Cleveland.
SPEAKER_01:And this is Lindsay.
SPEAKER_00:And this is another episode of The Devil You Don't Know. Lindsay, what are we going to be talking about today?
SPEAKER_01:The courage to be joyful. Ancient wisdom for a happier heart.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, today's episode is about a radical and deeply counter-cultural idea. And that is joy is not a reward for life well managed. But as I've been trying to argue with uh this this knucklehead over from Florida over here, uh, but a courage we practice, a devotion we return to again and again. And this is not about pretending everything is fine, and I think that's what people get get twisted about being joyful or expressing joy and happiness. It's not, you know, what do people call it? Toxic uh toxic positivity. Toxic positivity. It's not spiritual bypassing or forced positivity. It's about where we place our heart, especially when life is hard. Um, Lynz, I know there's two guiding voices that you always look to on this, and this is Tara Brock and Chat Cornfield. And today we're also gonna welcome in the voice of Krishna Das, whose teachings uh through chant and storytelling remind us that joy is not something we manufacture, but something we surrender to. What do you what are your thoughts about that?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I mean, we can't create joy and happiness in our lives. Right. And we have to learn to be kind of content with the way things are and to surrender to them.
SPEAKER_00:Right. One of the things that Krishna Das uh often says is we don't sing to feel good, we sing to feel what is there. Now, you tell me what that means because you often accuse me of of of avoiding my emotions. So what is he talking about there?
SPEAKER_01:Well, we it you know, basically it's like we do things, right? Because they have to be done. We don't do things as, you know, a distraction or an avoidance or avoid doing them really. We do things so that we can be present in them, right? And we and we have to do things that are not always going to be comfortable for us, right? Um, I was laughing because you and I go see Krishna Das a good bit, and I we have two very different experiences. Um singing and dancing in the aisles, and you're just quiet with your eyes closed, taking it all in.
SPEAKER_00:And I was actually gonna say say that. It's ironic that it that that's what he says. We don't sing to feel good, we sing to feel what's there. And when you go to a Krishna Das concert, right, um, you see a wide, varied set of experiences from people dancing in the aisles to folks like me who are more meditative to folks who are really having a really emotional reaction uh to it. And I think that's really, you know, important what he says there.
SPEAKER_01:Right. Well, he says that um, you know, when I saw him recently, it was interesting. He he had a very interesting life growing up. You know, I think some, you know, abuse at home and you know, not the greatest um upbringing. And he always wanted to be a rock star. And he was, you know, big into drugs in college. I think he played basketball in college. But anyway, he said he always wanted to have a he always wanted to sing, he always wanted to have a band. And so he jokes now that, you know, if he had the kind of band that he thought he wanted to have, he'd probably be dead. Yeah, I'm sure. And he goes, So now I have a band, and I'm very successful. Super successful, right? But he's chanting the names of, you know, of gods, and that's that's what his type of music is, right? It says Hindu devotional music, and you just chant the names of the divine.
SPEAKER_00:Right. The Bible often talks about the fruitages of the spirit, and that we have to cultivate the fruitages of the spirit, knows of love, joy, mildness, self-control, um, and a few other things. But joy is important to cultivate, right? Mildness, self-control, happiness. These are all fruitages of the spirit. But I want to talk about this idea in part one of this podcast, the trap of conditional happiness, which is something that we find in in Western and capitalist cultures, which most of us are taught implicitly or explicitly that happiness is conditional. For instance, if you don't understand what I mean, I will be joyful when, like, say for instance, when things calm, I will be joyful when I fix myself, I will be joyful when the pain goes away.
SPEAKER_01:Um it's always contingent upon something else.
SPEAKER_00:Right. And and Krishna Dash speaks about this very plainly that it's an illusion. He says that when we spend our lives trying to rid ourselves of fear, uh, of our grief, of our messiness, we before we allow ourselves a love to be happy or be happy. And it goes kind of back what we said in in our last episode is you just gotta go out and do it. What do you what do you think about that?
SPEAKER_01:Well, you do. You do things, as I said earlier, because they have to be done.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Right. And we don't go and do things for an end result, right? We don't do things. Well, I mean, a lot of people I think do. But I think the point of that and what you're saying is that we shouldn't have this calculated end goal in mind.
SPEAKER_00:Right, right. You know, the bag the Bhagit Vargita uh teaches in Arjuna um in chapter two, verse 38, established an equaminity. Perform your actions, abandoning attachment to success or failure. And and once again, it goes back to this idea of what we talked about in our last episode and what you just said is just do it, right? Go out and live. You know, part of what makes our relationship work, you know, I think, is that we just do it. Right. And you taught me that.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, absolutely. Because another thing, when you were saying that early, earlier, um, what came to mind for me is that there's also a quote in the Bhagavad Gita that says the renunciation of the fruits of action is superior to meditation, which itself is superior to knowledge. And there's a number of ways to say that. But again, it's just you, you know, what you do is you have to give up, you know, don't give up on the action, but give up for the desire for the result of that action.
SPEAKER_00:Right. And so what Krishna Das, or what these both these scriptures translate into, which is equivalent to a scripture in the Bible, which is Krishna Das translates this into having a lived experience. You show up as you are and you offer that, right? There's a story in the Bible where uh a young woman comes to the temple and she only gives like two shekels and donations, and people are laughing at her and deriding her and you know, making all types of fun of her. And Jesus is like, wait, wait, wait, wait. This is who she is. This is what she had to offer. And this is all she had to offer, right? And because this is all she had to offer, she actually gave more than you did because she showed up how she was, she wasn't fake and she wasn't pretentious, and she offered that.
SPEAKER_01:Well, and it shouldn't be that we're judged on what we can give, right? Because there's plenty of people who don't have the resources and and they can still, you know, they don't have to give something physically. They can still be present.
SPEAKER_00:I think moving on into this idea of joy as a fruit, not as a performance. I think what happens in in in Western culture, especially when we see it in our fiction, uh, you love a lot of Hallmark movies. And I've noticed like in in in in an in there's like a trope that's come up frequently in Hallmark movies where it's love, where it's not only uh the boy meets girl, but boy and girl run a successful business and and they find joy not only in love, but in being successful at what they're doing. Have you noticed that like lately in the trend of Hallmark movies, that it'll be like a love story and financial wealth is tied into it?
SPEAKER_01:Yes, you're also forgetting the part where they always have one fight and break up, and then they remember that they're just madly in love with one another. But the reason I like those kinds of things, I don't like anything that activates my nervous system, right? That's a very predictable type of movie that I watch. I don't want to watch the news, I don't want to see things that are coming up. I am very happy to be oblivious, I always say. Um, and sometimes you tell me I do need to know some things about the world. Um, I prefer to walk around a little bit, you know, with with kind of like uh rose-colored glasses, I guess you would say. But that's why I like those kinds of things because it's just this little moment of pleasure of watching something, and then I just go on with my day. I don't like to feel anxious. So I do whatever I can to avoid feeling anxious.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, yeah, I don't disagree with that. But what I'm talking about is I feel like sometimes the media that we look set look at, and I don't mean to pick on Hallmark movies because they they're they're good. My my old boss was like your dad. My dad loves Oh, your dad. Oh yeah, my old boss, my senior vice president at the company I used to work for, he would frequently talk about how he loved Hallmark movies and he loved Hallmark movies. It's like a little escape. Yeah, Christmas movies. But what I'm talking about is this idea that not, and it's not just Hallmark movies are guilty of this, but that joy is something to be achieved, right? Whereas the Bible teaches us in the Christian uh Christian uh Christian tradition that joy is not an achievement, it's something that you cultivate like a fruit, right? It's something that you work at. It's not like, yes, I have a million dollars and now I have achieved joy.
SPEAKER_01:Right. But it's just of being okay with where things are, right? Because when we can relinquish that or, you know, renunciate the end result, as we were saying earlier, I think that you do find joy in the everyday. And and we should, we should, right? We're we're sitting here still in Florida in a beautiful place. And every time I go outside, I'm like, this is really beautiful, right? And you know, and then I am very grateful that we have the opportunity to do that and to be here and to travel and to do the things that we get to do in our life. Um you know, I'd like to say that you and I are like very rarely in a bad mood. I think that, you know, we do try to find gratitude and joy in all of the little things.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. In Galatians 5, we're told that the fruit of uh fruit of the spirit is of uh is amongst several things. I'm just gonna just start off with these first ones love, joy, peace. Fruit grows when it stays rooted, right? And Krishna Das echoes this teaching from the bhakti perspectives where he reminds us that chanting, repeating the name of God is not simply about self-improvement, it's about building that relationship and learning that there's something larger than our fear. Can you speak to that a little bit?
SPEAKER_01:Well, that there's always right, it's it's we chant the name of the gods because it's something that's supposed to bring us joy.
SPEAKER_02:Right.
SPEAKER_01:And, you know, it's not, it's not, uh, it is not a self-improvement, but in a way, it for me anyway, it's a way for me to kind of get lost in myself a little bit. Right. And and you know, that's how I that's how I think about it. It's it's it it gives you this moment of it's very peaceful, right? It is a very joyous thing, and it brings joy to a lot of people. And I think that for me, that's that's what I take away from it.
SPEAKER_00:Right. You know, he goes on to say the mantra doesn't take away the pain, it gives you a bigger place to put it, right? And that bigger place, whether we call it God, spirit, Jesus Christ, Rom, awareness, it's where our joy lives.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and I was I was um thinking about this also last night. I told you I was listening to in my meditation training, we have all these modules, and I was listening to something I think about self-forgiveness via self-care. And one of the things that the presenter was saying, and I want to remember his name because Lama Rod Owens was doing this talk about forgiveness, uh self-forgiveness via self-care. And he said that one of the things that we have to learn how to do is to, when we go into a place, he says, even the grocery store, for example, like everybody in there is going through something. Right. And we have to realize that, you know, things are, you know, everybody has these issues. Instead of internalizing and like looking for this end result and looking for this happiness, that there's everybody has something going on. Right. And, you know, often we're all here for the same purpose.
SPEAKER_00:Right, right. You know, there's a game I'm playing right now, I was just talking uh to Hunt about, it's called Metaphor uh Refantasio. I've uh it came out a year ago uh by Atlas Studios, and it's Atlas always makes these games that are about like deeper stuff that are going on and behind the scenes emotionally. There's a little side story that occurs toward the end of the game. There's a church called the Sanctus Church, and one of the characters comes across like um uh a congregation, that the congregation is suffering, and the more they pray, the more they're suffering. And she tries to tell them that it's not it's it's not that your praying is wrong, is that you're not living in harmony with prayers. Like you're seeking, you're seeking God to help you through prayer and not doing anything else behind it. You were getting ready to say something to me.
SPEAKER_01:I was because that's something that reminds me, I wanted to actually talk to you about that now that you said that, because what I think often about is organized religion. And organized religion is not for me. And that was something I remember growing up. And I said this to you. It's like every time there's a holiday, everyone runs to church. Right. But they don't go to church every other Sunday in between. Right. Well, not not, you know, most people don't. And that we are taught in religion, right? And I think you've said this too about growing up in the Jehovah's Witnesses, is that we have to, you know, have this external God and He's gonna fix everything and make everything for us. And that's what people believe. So we're gonna pray and pray and pray and pray. But in reality, that's us just looking to the external.
SPEAKER_00:Right. And, you know, I had a conversation with one of my good friends, love this dude to death, and we had a disagreement on this because I wrote my book, Waiting for White Jesus, and we have our certain philosophy. And my philosophy, and and and this is what we're talking about here, is that joy is not something that God gives you. When Yufa is talking to that sanctist congregation in this game, you know, about the prayer and they're getting worse from their prayers, it's she's saying is like you're not actually doing the things that God is expecting you to do, which is to work for your own joy. Right? You know, when I was talking to my buddy about finding joy and he's loved this dude, but he's often deeply depressed, is well, I have to wait on God. Or I have to wait on this. And Lindsay, why is that why is that in direct opposition of everything that you've learned uh in your in your own life?
SPEAKER_01:Well, uh, it's when we're waiting for someone else to do it. First of all, we're, you know, not present in what's going on. So we're not, you know, we have this end focus, which you and I talked about the last time with that staircase that you had referred in our previous episode. We're always looking for the next thing. We're never actually in the moment. Right. Right. And that makes us miss things.
SPEAKER_00:Right. Often. So so when Krishna Das says the mantra doesn't take away the pain, the mantra, the mantra, uh uh the mantra, who does that uh I sound like what's the name from 90 Day Fiance? Uh the the weird I don't know, I don't know. Mantra. We don't watch it anymore. The mantra. Uh the mantra doesn't take away the pain, it gives you a bigger place to put it. What does he mean by that? Like what does that mean?
SPEAKER_01:Well, I think it gives you uh, you know, there's there's it gives you, I'm trying to think of how I want to say this, but that there's, you know, there's there is a there's there's a people, I guess, or gods or something that you can rely on, right? Right to ease, to ease what's going on within you is how I would interpret that. And how, you know, it allows you to kind of put yourself out there.
SPEAKER_00:Right, right. I want to spend a couple of minutes talking about somebody we know that I'm not gonna name, but he is a son of mine. Uh and he's been getting on everybody's nerves because he's got a lot of problems, right? You know, and hey, he could come on the show and defend himself and talk about himself. I'm not gonna talk about him in the space, but it it it without giving him an opportunity to defend himself, but he's got a lot of problems, and instead of looking internally toward himself, he's constantly what is what does this guy do? He tries to tears other people down. He go ahead.
SPEAKER_01:You Well, I think it's it's it doesn't even have to be, we don't even have to talk specifically about him. Yes, because this is what a lot of people do. Is that instead of and I said this about him specifically this morning, instead of turning to himself and saying, This is how I'm perceiving the relationship between myself and my parents or my siblings or whoever, it's pointing the finger and and saying, like, you know, I I'm mad at you for this. Right. I'm mad at you for this. And in reality, we when an when a situation occurs, and I wasn't in your life when he was little, but when a situation occurs, there's always going to be two different perceptions of the situation. There's gonna be yours and there's going to be his. And then there's gonna be actually be what happened. Right. And as Gabor Mate says, we don't react to the situation, we react to our perception of the situation. And that is where we start to then get in our head, and then we want to blame everyone else. And in reality, you know, what we need to do is that when we are triggered and there is a situation and we do have an emotional reaction to it, we have to look at ourselves and say, what wound is that opening in me? I wonder why what happened today is making me feel this way. Right. And I do that all the time. I said it to you even the other night. Like it that, you know, sometimes, you know, being around family brings great sadness because it's like there were things in my childhood that maybe could have been different. And we could have, I could have had a different childhood. And sometimes I grieve that, right? Um, or, you know, mourn that childhood, but I don't turn around and point my finger at the people who did the things that they did. Right. Instead, I look at it and say, you know what, this is out of my control. I could either sit here and be upset about my childhood, or I could be grateful for the life that I have right now because all the things that happened to me led me to the place that I am now.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. You know, the Bible and the Bhagavad Gita all say that spirit, that this, that love, joy, and peace are not natural states. They say it is a fruit that you have to work at, right? I can think of many examples and many places that I've been. I'm gonna go see a colleague tomorrow, a former colleague tomorrow, excited to see him. He's excited to see us. And I'm not gonna talk negatively about anybody and anything that ever happened to me because I don't know what would be the benefit of that. Right. I choose joy.
SPEAKER_01:Yes, and you also made a choice in your life that was a difficult choice to make, but look at how much happier you are now.
SPEAKER_00:I think I think part of the reason why you wanted to to do this episode, this this whole idea, is I think the courage to be joyful. You know, I I've seen I I was telling you yesterday, and I know that's what it is, is what what was what kind of was the insp inspiration for you, is I saw so many people talk about like 2025 was the worst year that they've ever had. And I I don't get it because the last, you know, my dad died in the last five years, but the last five years of my life where I've chosen to be joyful and ex and look for the joy and thing, is as Jack, as Jack, uh, as Jack Canfield says in the Success Principles, I've decided to keep a victory log, right? And not a log of of the things that I've that I've that I've lost, but the things that I've gained. And even though I've lost a lot of things, I I've probably lost a hundred things and gained 10. But I'm happy about the 10 things that I gained. And I'm not worried about the 100 things that I lost in the last five years. And what was crazy to see is I had an awesome 2025. It was was it difficult at times? Was it scary at moments? Was I like, oh, we're gonna have enough money for things? Yeah, there was a lot of that in there. So I'm not saying guys, like, oh, this is this is toxic positivity, but I continued to believe, right? Right. And and I see all these people that, well, 2025 was terrible for me, and 2024 was awful for me. You what what is 2026 gonna be for those people, Lynn?
SPEAKER_01:Well, it's probably gonna be more of the same. Right. Right? Because, you know, and I would think that most people are, I I can't say for sure, but most people who had like such a horrible 2025, I think were getting sucked into the quagmire, as I like to say, instead of just focusing on themselves. So I mean, I don't I can't think of, you know, it's funny because I I said it to you also when we were talking about that. And when you said you were noticing all these people saying this, I was like, I can't think of one year of my life that was like the worst year of my life. No, even the worst year of my life. I don't even know when it would have been.
SPEAKER_00:I could tell you the worst year of my life, but even the worst year of my life going back and looking at 2009 and 2010, man, it was still a there was still opportunity to be had, right? And so what I want to ask you as we move on to part three is the practice of turning the heart. So we work with a lot of people, and you've worked with a lot of damaged folks and people who've had a lot of trauma, especially as you learned uh compassionate. Inquiry. How do we practice joy even when life feels heavy?
SPEAKER_01:Well, we have to allow what is feeling heavy to be there, you know, and to sit with it, to see what's triggered. And we have to realize that there's healing to be done, yes, but that doesn't mean that we're alone. And I think that's a lot of the problem is that, you know, when we do feel that things are heavy, instead of talking about them, right, we isolate ourselves. And that's what we see a lot with clients. And then they come to us and they unload. Right. Right. And and I and I think I've said this too. One of the frustrations I have with a lot of my clients is like you have a partner that you live with. You live together. Why are you telling me this and not them? Right. Right. Right. I mean, when I am feeling off or you're feeling off, or something happens, we sit and we tell each other. And it's not a practice that we've always had. And one of the things I like that you say, and I do tell a lot of my clients, is that I say, my husband and I are both therapists, and we're still learning to communicate with each other. But, you know, we we do tell each other when things aren't right, or even if it doesn't have anything to do with the other person. If I'm feeling really badly about something, I can come to you and I can tell you that. And I know that you're gonna support me and you're gonna give me, you know, the love and the support that I need in those moments. And I think we one of the biggest things that we do is isolate ourselves.
SPEAKER_00:Right, right. I got that from Jack Canfield and from Terence Real, which is like, hey, if you are in a relationship with somebody, just be honest, right? You you know, there were times in the past we'd be cleave, are you all right? Are you all right? And I would lie and be like, yeah, I'm great. And actually, I'm not. And what I learned from both of those people is do you need to be honest and you need to be, you know, be be uh, you know, it goes back to what Tara Ro Brock says about rain. Recognize, allow, investigate, nurture, right?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, you just nurture yourself. You give yourself love. She even practices rain, right? Here's this like meditation master teacher here who practices this for herself.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and Krishna Das teaches it even simpler. He says, keep turning your heart in the right direction. What does Krishna Das mean by that, Lynn?
SPEAKER_01:Well, I mean, really, what is the right direction? Right. Um, but but we just, you know, we have to just allow, right? And and I think he means that the mind is like a storm. We don't argue with it, we just allow it to be there, right? We hold it and hold it with love and hold it with compassion and self-forgiveness and whatever else it is that you need in those moments.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it goes back to our previous episode is sometimes we, and of course no one likes pain, and of course no one likes um problems, but we go back to it as this is a problem to be solved, and Krishna Dash and both with Tara Brock says this practice of turning your heart in the right direction means I'm not gonna try to necessarily solve what this thing is, but I'm gonna sit with it. What is this thing trying to teach me and what I can take away from it?
SPEAKER_01:Right. And we do learn from all of those experiences. And I I said this also with you yesterday when we recorded a different episode is that we learn sometimes what doesn't work for us just as much as what we what does. And I tell my clients all the time, you know, what you don't want is equally as important as what you do want.
SPEAKER_00:Right. This this is mirrored in the Psalms where it says, Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew the spirit within me, which is also mirrored in the Dhammapada, which is the mind is the forerunner of all things, and with a peaceful mind, which you always try to stress to me, happiness follows like a shadow. So joy doesn't begin with control, right? And which is something you've often tried to teach me, like can I cause I what what what do I do? I try to control, control, control, control.
SPEAKER_01:But I do want to go back, and I'm interrupting you for a minute because we've been talking a little bit about, you know, the struggle that your son has been having with family. And it's like you said, what did you say? Happiness follows like a shadow.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, that's the Dhammapada.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. And so I love the Dhammapada. Have you ever read it? No, gonna read. I love it. I've been reading it again recently. But what I wanted to say was that, you know, happiness follows like a shadow. Like I think the thing is, is that with this particular child of yours is that he leaves it in the shadow and he never finds anything. Every single thing is so negative and woe is me. And like, I have to have this pity party for myself. And and then he wonders why people don't want to hang around with him. And it's like, because everything is like, you know, think of Eeyore, right? And then he the Pooh, which is like, oh, bother, everything's a bother, right? And it's, you know, and it's I, you know, I think, and that's really sad for him, right? And so I do have compassion for him in that way because I really do hope that in this lifetime he can find happiness. But the reason that he struggles with work and he struggles with dating and he struggles with family relationships is all because of this major pity party he's having for himself.
SPEAKER_00:Right. And he's not alone in this, right? I was talking to somebody last week who disagreed with me, but then went and said everything that I just said, just in their own way. Is there is a whole generation of young men that are out there that do not know how to find joy, right? Scott Galloway talks about it in his in his book, uh the notes on being a man. Multiple people talk about it, and joy does not begin with control. Joy begins with orientation. It is like you could try to control, control, control, control, control, or you could accept, you could be like John McCain was when he was a prisoner of war. And hey, this is the bullshit, this is the bull that I gotta deal with today. I don't want to deal with it, but let me try to figure it out the best way that I can. So it begins with orientation. What does that mean to you? Begins with orientation.
SPEAKER_01:Well, we can't control anything. That's what I wanted to say, right? But we just have to, I mean, I guess orientation, I wasn't thinking of it like that, but it's just like getting to know things the way that they are, right? I mean, what is an orientation? You learn about something, right? So it's the same as like sitting there and investigating and learning.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, look, look, look, let's look, let's talk about yes, let's go back to yesterday. Let's go back to me bugging out about the car. About where's the car? Where's the car? Where's the car? That that was that's that's an example of it. I can't control where the car is 1900 miles from here. And like you said, even we even when we were in um a St. Kitts.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, in Virgin Gorda, and the, you know, and Huckleberry Tim is having the house party and people are flooding the backyard, and there's white claws all over. You could see them in the camera inside the house. Wait, what can you do from a couple thousand miles a day on a remote island away, right? What can you do from that remote island? You can do absolutely nothing.
SPEAKER_00:And so in that case, I gotta reorient myself, right? And be present instead of instead of worrying about where the car is at or worrying about what he's doing. I have to, you understand now why why orientation is is important because it means be mindful, be present where you're at. Enjoy the beautiful woman that's sitting across from you at the table, that's eating uh her breakfast as I'm eating mine, and stop worrying about all this other stuff that you literally can't control, right? And once again, it goes back to a lot of of what we've learned. Joseph Gwynn talks about in his book, Don't Believe Everything You Think, right? It did what the Dhammapada says. It says, happiness will follow like a shadow. Right. Right? That means you don't have to do anything if your mind is peaceful, if you let go of trying to control everything.
SPEAKER_01:Well, and and that's the thing, because the more that you try to control, the more that you stay out of the moment. And then, you know, and and then you start to drive every. I mean, you were driving me crazy about the car. My God, it was going on for days.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah, yeah. You were right though. I go back and look at it, especially, and you know, when I think about people that were, I was not successful with at work, right? You know, certain people that, you know, going back to previous jobs and not just the last one, the worst managers that I ever had were control freaks, right? Yep. You know, like they were people that constantly had to control, control, control, control. And the problem is when you try to micromanage and you try to control, not only are you driving yourself crazy, you're driving everybody else around you crazy. And you're actually not effective when you're trying to control everything.
SPEAKER_01:Right. You're not, because you're not in the present moment. And and again, and it's like the only thing I said yesterday you can control are your own thoughts, words, actions, behaviors, the things that you do. You know, we sure it would be great if we could, you know, control people to do things the way that we would like them. Right. But we aren't always going to agree with the way that people human, as my meditation mentor Sharon would say. We aren't always going to agree with the way that people human. Right. More often than not, we won't agree with it.
SPEAKER_00:Right, right. So I want to I want to move on for a second and I want to talk about joy as a devotion, not denial. I I think part of the problem that people, certain people have, and and you said this about atheists the other day, is that atheists that I I can't remember, it was a saying that you said that somebody said that atheist is somebody who hasn't necessarily experienced the wonder of life or whatever it was.
SPEAKER_01:Well, well, it was that atheists, um, Krishna Das said it. He said something about atheists haven't, um, that's because they haven't like witnessed anything yet.
SPEAKER_02:Right.
SPEAKER_01:Right. Something along those lines. Right. And they haven't seen a real, like, glorious, like had a really glorious experience or had something, you know, almost, you know, happen that's almost like seems like it could never happen. Yeah, like, or have things just kind of fall into place for them, right? Like people that haven't witnessed that yet.
SPEAKER_00:Right, right. And I just and I and listen, as somebody who of faith, I've seen a lot of unexplainable things happen. And I think another thing too that that that causes people to to have to be atheist or have lack of belief or lack of or believe that there's nothing out there is they do not understand that suffering is part of life. Right. So I I I think people think, well, if God was real or if all of these things were real, well, then why is suffering? And Krishna Das makes it very clear, and even the Bible and other holy books, but Krishna Das makes it very clear that joy does not mean that there's an absence to suffering. Suffering, unfortunately, is part of life. Um, Jim Roam says, in Jim Roam, I love Jim Roam. Jim Ron, I tell us the clients all all the time, is always prepare for winter. How many times does winter come? A year, Lindsay, even here in sunny Florida. How many a year, right? Although it's kind of nice here. Yeah, but it's in the 40s. But but but winter comes or rainy seasons come. There are inclement seasons in no matter where you go in the world.
SPEAKER_01:And there's inclement seasons in life.
SPEAKER_00:Right, right, right. So speak to that. So speak to so speak to that. So speak to that, those inclement seasons in life.
SPEAKER_01:That's just whatever we go through, right? We're always going to have ups and downs. Not everything is always going to work out the way that we want it to work out. We're not always going to agree with the things that happen around us. So we could sit there and we can woe is me and pity party and everything is terrible and I'm so sad. Or we can just say, oh, this is just kind of part of the path.
SPEAKER_00:Right. Well, I'm gonna go back to Krishna Daz for a second because as you said before, he speaks openly. He's like, if he would have a joyful life that he thought he deserved, he said he'd be dead.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Right. And why is that?
SPEAKER_01:Because Well, because he said he was using drugs, he wanted to be like a rock and roll star, and now here he is, like a vegetarian, right, who doesn't use substances, who literally has created a successful life out of chanting the names of Hindu gods. And so that is what he does.
SPEAKER_00:And so even though he speaks openly about addiction and about self-doubt and about grief, his teachings are soaked in joy, right? Because joy in Bhakti is not about the happiness of life, it's about living and finding joy in the midst.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it's living from a place of love. Right. It literally living from a place of love. And and you know, Dharmont Mitra says, love everyone, forgive everyone everything.
SPEAKER_00:And so when, and so when he's telling you to have joy in the midst of life, in a Jimmy Buffett way, what does that mean?
SPEAKER_01:Just be happy all the time.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, what does Jimmy Buffett say? Um, I was I'd rather live while I'm dying.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, like die while I'm living than live while I'm dead. Right, right. Yeah, live every single day like it's your last day.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I'd rather die while I'm living than live when I'm dead. And there are a lot of folks out there that are not joyful, that are seeking to excuse or or or to or or fall back into their trauma that are living while they're dead.
SPEAKER_01:Right. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Right.
SPEAKER_01:Well, that and that's think about most people that you see um when you're a therapist, right? Because uh, you know, and I hate to say this because I think in therapy, the number of clients that come in and get the do the work, right, and then get um discharged, right, is far fewer than the other people. Right. And, you know, and it's like those people like they wanna like, you know, they want to live while they're alive. And then there's the other people who want to come every week, as Gabor Mate says, and just tell you the story, the really depressing story about how everything is wrong and then never wants to change anything, right? And those are most of the people they want to come and get stuck in their story, right? And that's what's happening with um your son, also. He's stuck in this story instead of looking at all the glorious things that are happening around him, right?
SPEAKER_00:He's stuck in this story. But but that's what people want. And here's here's a crazy thing. I love comic books. Love comic books, right? The biggest difference between Marvel and DC comics is DC has let their characters grow and change, like Superman has a son, you know, Batman has a son, like Wonder Woman has a daughter now, and they kind of let their characters grow and change and go through stuff, right? Because people deserve to change, right? Marvel, on the other hand, has stagnates, and Spider-Man has been even they they took away his marriage to Mary Jane. They always keep the status quo. They they don't let the characters grow, they don't let the characters change. And I think and Marvel is more popular in DC because even though there are a segment of the fans like me who's like, no, let these characters grow, let them change, let them become different. You know, in 30 years of me being alive and 52 years of me being alive, I've gone through a lot of changes, right? But I think what happens is that people, like you said, they get stuck in their story. My a good friend of mine, Val Nichols, used to call it being a prisoner of comfort. And I think what happens, I don't know, I know what happens to people is that they would rather stay stuck in their story.
SPEAKER_01:Well, because there's a lot of fear in getting out of the story. There's a lot, right? Change creates fear and anxiety. What is anxiety? It is the fear of the unknown. Right, right.
SPEAKER_00:And one of the authors that I love um says that part of the reason why people are obsessed with the internet or follow TikTok is because it when you follow somebody who says there's a conspiracy and life is out of your control, it actually absolves you of your success or your failure. When you say, well, Donald Trump is the reason why I'm failing, or the Somali fraud is the reason why I don't have anything, you are actually taking away responsibility from yourself to feed.
SPEAKER_01:Right. There is a reason you have them and there's a way out of them.
SPEAKER_00:Right.
SPEAKER_01:But people look to aggravate themselves by or they look. Well, and Donald Trump is one person. Right. Right. And that's what makes me so crazy. Do I like him? No. Do I think he's like a petulant child? Yes, absolutely. I do. Um, but you know, I also realize that he doesn't really control anything in my life. Right. You know. Right. And he is not the cause of my happiness. Right. Or the days that I don't feel as great. Right, right. We're control of that, right? Absolutely. You know, you know, you can look at him and you can blame him, or you can look at your life and say, you know what? I'm gonna heal myself. I'm gonna work on myself. The the Upan, I'm probably saying this right now. Oh, the Upanishads. The Upanishads say what? You know what the Upanishads are? No, tell me. Oh, it's another spiritual text. It came actually before the Dhammapada. Oh. So it's the one of the first ones. Um it's a the meaning actually of Upanishads is sitting near.
SPEAKER_00:Okay. And what is that? So it's there's a scripture in there that says, I can't read it because it's Oh, well, it basically it translates to Brahman is bliss itself.
SPEAKER_01:And so Brahman is the ultimate unchanging reality, like the single supreme cosmic spirit or universal principle that is the source, sustainer, and end of all existence.
SPEAKER_00:So when, so when the how do you say it again? Uh uh Upanishads. So when the Upanishad says that Brahma is bliss itself, what does that mean? How does that translate to our modern lives?
SPEAKER_01:That we, you know, we can't change reality. And so we have to, you know, learn to, you know, that reality is reality.
SPEAKER_02:Right. Right.
SPEAKER_01:And so we have to learn to just let it be. Right. And when we can find that and realize that we don't have to change, work on changing our reality and focus energy on changing it, then that's where we find that bliss, right? Which is that, you know, unending joy.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. What's the song Everywhere You Go, Always Take the Weather With You? Everywhere you go, who take the weather with you.
SPEAKER_01:What does that mean? Well, every if, you know, here's the thing. Life's issues are gonna follow you no matter where you go. Right. I always say that. If you're happy, you're right. And you and I talk about that all the time because I say I always want to live in somewhere warm. And you're like, well, you know, I don't care where I live, you're like, because I'm always happy. And I said, Yeah, but I just feel better physically in warm weather. Yes. And and so for me, am I would I be happy here versus happy in New York? I I would be happy in both places. I just happen to like the warm weather a little bit more. Yes. And so, you know, that's not the determinant of my happiness. If you told me I had to go to live in Alaska for something, you know, I would suck it up and buy some warm clothes and go. But, you know, the happiness, it's it's you know, if your happiness, your sadness, life's struggles are going to follow you no matter where you go physically.
SPEAKER_00:That's that's the whole point. Whereverywhere you go, always take the weather with you, right? Jesus says in the Bible, the kingdom of God is with it with is within you. And where I think people get it twisted is that they think that means that God is constantly like pouring energy into you and like you know, no. What Jesus means is that you have to have that mentality that the kingdom of God is always within you.
SPEAKER_01:Well, and the Bhagavad Gita says that at the moment of creation, a portion of God becomes part of the soul of every living being, right? And so that in a way can also equate to the kingdom of God is within you, right? There's a portion of God in every single one of us.
SPEAKER_00:Right. And Krishna Das says something that agrees with both of those statements is we are not trying to get somewhere else, we're trying to stop running. Yeah, don't chase things, right? Just be, be where you are. Yeah, yeah. And when we stop running, when we rest in what you always like to remind me of of being present, or in meditation, or in prayer, or in song, the joy is already there like a shadow.
SPEAKER_01:Um yeah, I mean, you because like that's the one thing in our relationship, right? And I know we both have things about each other that drive us nuts. Like for me, I know my procrastination drives you crazy.
SPEAKER_00:And for me, your repetitiveness drives me crazy because you'll tell me the same thing a hundred times, and I'm just like, oh my god, but that's but that's me trying to exercise control, and I'm understanding that the repetit the repetitive nature of my is how I'm trying to control reality, and it doesn't really matter.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and then I understand from my therapist too that you know procrastination is a trauma response. Right.
SPEAKER_00:So I want you so if you don't mind, I'd like you to give us the closing reflection on what we talked about today.
SPEAKER_01:Well, so it's to, you know, not chase things, to practice just being present, being okay with yourself, and then maybe making an offering to yourself, offer a breath, you know, offer your fear, offer your unfinished heart. And you can find a practice that works for you either through chanting. I mean, I'm a huge fan of chanting. I love Krishna Das. Um, you know, maybe saying a prayer or praying if that's you know what you believe in. Um and just sitting quietly and allowing yourself to be there, holding yourself in compassion and in love. And that's, you know, not forcing something else to be present, not trying to force yourself into joy or happiness, and but also not turning away. From you know the difficult and unpleasant feelings.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, one of the things that Krishna Das says is that joy is not something you force, it's something that flows when you stop turning away. And as he likes to remind us, just keep coming back. That's the practice.
SPEAKER_01:Right. And I did take a course called The Power of Awareness as we wrap up, and in that was a prerequisite to my meditation training. And in the power of awareness, that was something that they said is that I can't remember who it was, but she said that it things, you know, when things are difficult, like and and when the mind wanders, right? We can always start again. You can always come back and start over.
SPEAKER_00:I think it's Elvis Costello has a song called Rip It, Rip It Up and Start Again. Oh, okay, I'm gonna restart saying it. But as like, but yes, you can rip it up and you can start again, right? Like it doesn't mean that it's it's it's all over, right? Um for more resources, including teaching from Tara Brock, Jack Cornfield, and Krishna Das, as well as the sacred texts and chants referenced today, uh visit our show notes.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, they all have podcasts. I actually absolutely love Krishna Das's podcast. It's called um Call and Response Podcast, and the episodes are really short, which I love. And so you some of them are seven, eight minutes long, some are 20 minutes long, and they're just filled with great little pieces of wisdom.
SPEAKER_00:If if for those of you who had a rough 2025, and I'm not saying that there are folks that didn't have a rough 2025, I probably had a rough 2025 just because I've been enjoying the show, I've just been enjoying my life, didn't realize it. But if this episode touched you, right, in 2026, I want you to consider sharing with someone who may need permission to rest in their joy. Um, that's all I got for me. So this has been Cleveland and Lindsay. And until next time, keep turning your heart toward love. And it's time for our bike ride. Boom boom. And this has been another episode of The Devil We Don't Know.
