The Devil You Don’t Know
In The Devil You Don’t Know, Lindsay, Cleveland, and their guests discuss personal growth and development by taking chances and getting out of your comfort zone. Topics range from whimsical to serious and everything in between but are always relevant to growth and development.
The Devil You Don’t Know
Stop Trying To Figure It Out
Ever feel like you’re doing mental gymnastics to “figure it out,” only to wind up more anxious and less present? From a windy couch in Naples, we unpack the modern obsession with certainty and why it keeps us looping instead of living. We draw a clear line between problems to solve and mysteries to live—think broken appliances versus identity, timing, love, and purpose—and share how attachment to outcomes quietly fuels stress.
Cleveland shares how leaving a corporate job without a perfect plan led to more freedom than endless planning ever did. Lindsay brings tools from mindfulness and therapy that turn panic into presence, including the surprising power of taking just the next honest step. We trade stories about overtracking, overplanning, and the moment you realize that allowing isn’t quitting—it’s refusing to force what needs time. Along the way, we talk proactive versus reactive living, how action creates clarity, and why you can’t spreadsheet your way to a meaningful life.
If thinking harder hasn’t helped, it’s probably not a thinking problem. You’ll learn simple prompts to break the overthinking loop—What is truly being asked of me now? What one step can I take without the whole plan? Can I trust myself to learn as I go?—plus a grounded approach to making an impact where it counts. Less outrage, more local love. Fewer invented problems, more attention to what’s real.
Press play for a conversation that feels like a deep exhale: funny, candid, and packed with practical shifts you can use today. If this resonates, follow the show, share it with a friend who’s stuck in “figure it out” mode, and leave a quick review to help more listeners find us.
Please email us at Gettoknowthedevil@gmail.com
This is Cleveland.
SPEAKER_00:This is Lindsay.
SPEAKER_02:And this is another episode of The Devil You Don't Know. Live from Naples, Florida. I guess, even though we're recording it, but live from Naples. Well, we're recording it live. We're recording it live. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:So pre-recorded live. Pre-recorded from Naples, Florida. Live. Live. Live. Live. Okay. How are you doing? Good to see you. I always see you. And I love it every time.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, it's been a good vacation so far.
SPEAKER_00:Great vacation.
SPEAKER_02:Love it here. We had some really I'm gonna do a commercial for what is it? Trusted Home Saves? Trusted Home Save. Trusted Home Saves.
SPEAKER_00:Again, you always do their commercial. We don't need to do it anymore. But if you need someone to watch your pets, just pay for that service. It's fancy.
SPEAKER_02:It was good. I mean, no, no, it was good. The family did a good job. I was a little nervous there. You know, I'm always nervous.
SPEAKER_00:You're always nervous, and it always turns out to be okay because they have a background check.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, it always turns out to be really good and it was a good time. So it's a great time. So before we get started into today's topic, what is today's topic, real quick?
SPEAKER_00:Oh, today is stop trying to figure it all out. The liberating art of allowing things to unfold.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, there's gonna be a little extra noise. I want to just warn you guys because we are not in an ideal uh setup over here.
SPEAKER_00:Um, that's very true. It's a nice house, but it's just I think it's not it's not the right place for us. It doesn't have like a good as you just working space as I drop the microphone that I'm holding. Sorry.
SPEAKER_02:I think you need to tighten that up a little bit.
SPEAKER_00:I don't know how.
SPEAKER_02:Where it's I don't really know how.
SPEAKER_00:All right, I'm just gonna hold it tight. I think I'm just gonna hold it tight. But but anyway, we're down here in in Naples, Florida, and and we absolutely love it. And every time we come home, it's harder and harder for me to get Cleve to actually get on an airplane to come home when it's time. Uh we have a few days left, but yeah, you really love it here, don't you?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, it's great. You know, I always tell folks that I listen, I was very anti-Florida like most people in the Northeast for a long time. Um and then I came down here and I saw the light and I wasn't so brainwashed anymore. And this is Naples, Florida is honestly a beautiful uh place to live. We're gonna go go see one of my former co-workers uh tomorrow Friday.
SPEAKER_00:Friday? Yep. Tomorrow we're going to my parents' house. We bowed out of the uh the New Year's Eve dinner at the club with the limited menu. The limited menu, which is like the only vegan option, was like a wet noodle and some plus the word on the street is that the Christmas cactus isn't doing so well, so I'm not sure if you really need to be around Bob any extra.
SPEAKER_02:Listen, we can get him a new Christmas cactus. I already offered, so we'll we'll we'll we'll do that. I think I just a joke I'm gonna get him a new It looked fine the other day, you know.
SPEAKER_00:It looked really good, actually, better than when we were there. I thought so too. I mean, you really messed that thing up in October.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I thought so too. I thought it looked really good. So maybe it needed some new it needed some new life. But what is today's topic that we're talking about?
SPEAKER_00:Well, I just said what it was.
SPEAKER_02:Say it again. I was I'm just I maybe I followed.
SPEAKER_00:Are we done with the banter?
SPEAKER_02:Are we? I don't know. We're still bantering a little bit.
SPEAKER_00:I don't know. Last night we went to the sugar shack. Oh, that was great.
SPEAKER_02:Sugar Shack Downtown.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I really just you know what it is here? It's like people are friendly, it's so clean. I mean, they have like a garbage pickup every day over in the world.
SPEAKER_02:That's what it is I was like, how many times are they picking the garbage up?
SPEAKER_00:And you know what I said to you? How much garbage do you see on the streets?
SPEAKER_02:None. Zero.
SPEAKER_00:I've not seen one piece of litter.
SPEAKER_02:Listen, at the at the first annual Sugar Shack Downtown Winter Block Party.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, wasn't that fun? We had live music. Yeah. In the park and at the restaurant. So good. It was great. We had a good time. Yeah, and I got to hang with Steph, who lives a little north of here, like three and a half hours north of here, and she came down to hang with us, which was fun. I also went to the corkscrew sanctuary. You didn't come. No, not this time. But we uh did the two and a half mile boardwalk, which was really lovely, and there was this otter, and it was swimming in the water, and you can hear it, and everybody saw it except for us, because by the time we came, it was like, you know, in this bush.
SPEAKER_02:But you heard it though.
SPEAKER_00:We heard it, and I kept waiting for it to come back because I always want to see some wildlife there. But you said you saw some crocodiles or something. No, alligators. I saw two alligators. Yeah, okay. Two alligators and some birds. I saw some a lot of birds, and that was really about it.
SPEAKER_02:It was it was warmer than I mean today, one of the reasons. Yeah, that's one of the reasons why we're recording today is because it's been a pretty warm week, but I think uh today, tomorrow, and uh Friday are gonna be. I think Friday is back in the 70s, but today and tomorrow at least are the coldest days of the week.
SPEAKER_00:That is true, very true. But it's it is, it's really been really nice. We rented bikes and we've been biking every day, taking long walks. The one hot day that we decided we'd go to the beach and walk. It was too busy to get a parking spot. It was crazy. So yeah, but anyway, we can move on if you're ready.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, if you're ready. Well, do you want to talk about bread for 15, 20 minutes?
SPEAKER_00:Uh sourdough?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:No, I haven't made any yet, but I actually ordered some more flour to the house and I'm gonna have Lila feed my sourdough.
SPEAKER_02:Okay, because the queen mom is. Yeah, that's right.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, she's gonna feed it for me. Yeah. And I told her to put the heat on, get the environment nice and hot for my my my dough to my like, you know, the sourdough, like the you know, the sourdough stuff to like bubble and rise and double in size. And she said it was uh seemed like an intense amount of work for her. An immense immense, not intense, immense amount of work for her. She had to find my food scale, and then she couldn't find the flour, so I had to order her another 10-pound bag from Wegmans with the grocery order, and you know, all that good stuff.
SPEAKER_02:I think immense and intense are uh both the same when it comes to asking teenagers to do anything for you that they're not interested in in doing.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, no, she's a but she's actually such a good kid, the Queen Mom, and she's going to she's gonna do it for me. She was ready. I I was actually, she was ready, but we had to stop because there was not enough flour. And I there's a bag of flour. Maybe you put it somewhere before the folks came to house sit, because that seems like something you might do. So it might turn up because it was nowhere to be found. Yeah, because it was. You know where it would be a great place to put it if you're gonna do that? Inside the pantry, but it is not there. Yeah, maybe it's under the bench. I don't know. Because you had two bags of flowers, from what I remember, right? You had like a blue and a red bag. Well, yeah, but they're different kinds of flowers. Oh, okay. So don't be messing with my sourdough accessories. Okay, we'll not. We'll see anyhow.
SPEAKER_02:So this one is called Stop Trying to Figure It All Out. The liberating art of allowing things to unfold. What made you think of this one?
SPEAKER_00:Well, I was listening to uh a podcast recently and I heard someone say, you know, not everything is figure out. Right. And then I thought about a conversation I had recently with my own therapist of like, I just need to figure this out. I need to figure this out. I'm I'm you know, I'm trying to figure out how I can make this happen, you know, about something in my life. And she was like, Well, why don't you just stop and wait until the new year? Right. And I was like, Oh, that's a novel idea. Stop thinking about it, see how things unfold. You know, this was maybe about a month ago, between November and January. She goes, and then you can hit the ground running. But she's like, Why do you have to figure it out right now?
SPEAKER_02:I I agree with that. Even in my own therapy, and I have to go back to to therapy eventually myself. Uh is my own personal therapy. She used to ask me, why does everything have to be an A? Right. Um, and that's a question that I still ask myself. But we live in this culture that's obsessed with answers, you know, career clarity, relationship certainty, uh, purpose healing. Um but I honestly believe that some of the most important parts of life literally aren't meant to be solved.
SPEAKER_00:Right. And I I really do believe I was saying to you earlier that things unfold the way that they are supposed to unfold. And and it depends what you believe in, right? But there is some higher power out there, whatever it is, and things unfold the way that they are supposed to. And so even if they seem really awful, often on the other side of it, and I mean you can speak to this because you left a corporate career suddenly, you know, because of your own discontent. Um, but you you you sit here and you think and you mull over this, and everything is terrible, and I hate this and I hate this, and then you make one change and look at the trajectory that your life has taken. When you left that job a year and a half ago, did you think this is what you'd be doing now?
SPEAKER_02:No, no, no. Um here's some quotes that that you that you have, and it makes me think about what you're talking about, which is here's one, you don't need the whole staircase, you just need the next step.
SPEAKER_01:Right.
SPEAKER_02:And I think what happens is when you're trying to figure stuff out, and I've worked with clients who with on this who are unhappy in their jobs or unhappy in their relationships, and then I give them the example of me just leaving mine, and they were like, Well, dude, that's you, and it's true, that is true. Like a lot of books I read, you know, are like you do have to have something else next lined up, or you should you should think about your future. But here's the thing like you just said, it all worked out, right? Some some some puzzles aren't there to solve, they're gardens to tend. Um Right.
SPEAKER_00:And when I when you say that about the staircase and just worrying about the next step, we we spend so much time kind of projecting and future tripping that that's what ends up causing us so much anxiety and stress.
SPEAKER_02:Right.
SPEAKER_00:Right. Instead of worrying about what's gonna happen, you know, in 2026, 2027, when you're, you know, 55, when you're 60, what if you just are in the moment and you just say, Oh, I'm gonna make this choice right now, and you take that next step.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, there's there's multiple uh thinkers that I've read recently on this topic about stop forcing things and things will just work out. Um, me leaving the job, and I talk about it a lot, but me leaving the job, you know, I was very worried for a very long time that things weren't gonna work out.
SPEAKER_00:Right.
SPEAKER_02:And things actually have worked out far better than I thought they ever could.
SPEAKER_00:Well, and you said yesterday, I think when we were out riding or walking, you know, I wouldn't be able to be here right now if I still worked in corporate America, and I wouldn't be able to go to Tortola next month, and I wouldn't be in St. Kitts in April. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, and now we're talking about getting a long-term stay down here for the summer to, you know, really kind of immerse ourselves in a neighborhood and spend time here. So, you know, this is not anything you would have ever been able to do if you didn't make that one snap decision that day to say, you know what, this is no longer for me.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. But why is it that you think people are reluctant to make that snap decision or, you know, to leap into the unknown?
SPEAKER_00:Because I think people get in their head. There's a lot of fear. And so there's the fear, and I've talked about this too, and the compromise of, well, if I do this, then I'm gonna disappoint other people. Right. And so often what do we do? We compromise what is true to us and what feels authentic to us. That gut feeling, we compromise that and we ignore that for acceptance.
SPEAKER_02:I I one of the things that I know for a fact, and I learned this in grad school and have read it in multiple places, that people crave certainty, right?
SPEAKER_00:If you ever think about those Well, I don't, which drives you.
SPEAKER_02:No, it drives me nuts, right? But if you ever think about those, those those moments in life, um you know, it's it's the uncertainty that keeps you unsettled. And I think what happens when you try to figure out life's but big questions, you're not really answering, you're not really in search of an answer. What you're in search of is certainty. Um, and certainty is something that life rarely offers.
SPEAKER_00:Absolutely. And you can get the dream job and and you know, have this great salary and you're still miserable. Yeah. Right. And so it's like, sure, there's a lot of certainty in that, but again, what do you do? You compromise your own values and who you are and what you want.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. The problem is our minds are constantly scanning for this final answer, like, well, if I get this, then at last I'll be at last I'll be happier. If I get this, then you know, I need the house, or I need the job. And and and I and when you look at rich people, and there are a lot of rich people out there that are miserable.
SPEAKER_00:Well, and here's another example. I think I said to you is that um there's a a a student, another student in my meditation training with me who has cancer, sadly. And he came, he went on a retreat and he came to the monthly meeting and he said that he had this realization on retreat that like he can sit here and he can worry about the cancer and what the outcome is gonna be, but he could get hit by a car tomorrow walking across the street to get into his job. And and then it's you spend all of this time wrapped up in the what-ifs and what if I don't heal, and what if I die from this, and what is the treatment gonna be like? And then you're already you've wasted time, right? Because every moment that you spend worrying about what's going to happen to you, you're not in the present moment enjoying your life as it is.
SPEAKER_02:The problem when you try to figure out, when you're always trying to figure everything out all the time, is it leads you in this constant state of anxiety, right? I think the figured out mindset treats uncertainty as a threat instead of a natural condition.
SPEAKER_00:Like you see me when I'm spazzing out, it's typically but you always have to figure it out, and I love you so much, it makes me so crazy. Like I think I've said to you a hundred times this week, Ruth. We had a family watching the house and they're using the car. Well, what are they gonna do with the car keys? And when are they gonna bring the car back? And are they gonna take the car? Where are they gonna take the car? And I was like, I I I don't know. And just stop asking because you know where they're gonna put the keys when they're done? On the kitchen table, like I asked them to do, and then the whole thing is done. And guess what? You spent all that time this week bothering me about the car, which was driving me nuts, which I told you every time. I was like, please just stop with the car. Right. And and and where's the car now?
SPEAKER_02:It's I don't know where it's at.
SPEAKER_00:It's at the house. And where are the keys? They're at the house. Yeah, at the house, but okay.
SPEAKER_02:Well, you know, uh the college drop-in is probably driving it all over the place.
SPEAKER_00:Uh no, no, no, he's not. He's in the city. He went out in the subway.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. But but that's the problem, is that uh certainty or trying to figure something out specifically assumes that there's only one correct answer or only one way to get to a thing, and that actually causes more anxiety when frequently there are multiple paths to get to the one thing that you want, right? Um, and I can testify that looking for a certain answer or always trying to figure out a certain thing actually keeps my nervous system activated, right? And when you meet people that are constantly trying to figure stuff out or constantly trying to get the answer to a sudden to a question, it leaves them in a state of urgency and hypervigilance.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. And it keeps you questioning, right? What should I have done? What should I do in the future? And and it's it's you're constantly like revisiting, you're rehashing and you're rehearsing. So you're rehashing what happened, you're rehearsing for the future. And so you're never actually in the moment, and then you're missing the opportunities that do come your way.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, and it sounds like instead of getting clarity, what you get is what I get is you get looping thoughts, you get second guessing, you get mental exhaustion. You know, I had to just be quiet. When I was, when we were trying to eat breakfast, and that's why I said, you know what? And I'm looking at where the car is and and whatnot, I was wasting my time. And it and and I was exhausting myself.
SPEAKER_00:So I was like, Well, and and what I always say to you, right, which was also like an example was in the summer. Remember when uh Huckleberry Tim uh, you know, had the house party when we were in Virgin Gorda. You know, what are we going to do from thousands of miles away on a remote Caribbean island that has random ferry service that sometimes operates nothing. So I had to tell you, stop looking at the house cameras. Yeah, because there's nothing you can do here but aggravate yourself.
SPEAKER_02:Right, right. And and you're trying to do something that your mind was absolutely not designed to do, which is predict and control life and change the future.
SPEAKER_00:But you know what's funny about that? I just want to segue for a moment. I am like a fly by the seat of my pants person. I'm like, whatever, let's just do it. And you it drives you nuts because you love to have an answer and to figure things out. And you like to figure them out as soon as they happen. You can't ever just sit there. And it's funny because we're like complete opposites in that.
SPEAKER_02:Well, I'm starting to let go. I do think there are some things that you do have to kind of plan for. I do, I will, but I think the extent that I'm always trying to figure stuff out and other people always trying to figure stuff out, I do think that's that's that's problematic. Um, let's move on. I want to talk about the difference between problems to solve and mysteries to live. And I'm gonna say this I'm gonna give you an example of some things uh that that are genuine problems, a broken appliance, you know, a math equation, um, a new skill that you need to learn, right? These things respond well to logic planning and analysis, but there are also things that we all we obsessively try to figure out that there are no problems with at all. They're mysteries. I I I I want to I want to think about I'm gonna use uh, for instance, uh a big problem that folks made for themselves this year was the Atlas III. Right? People sitting here trying to figure it out what is this thing? Is it coming to earth?
SPEAKER_00:Well, it's funny is I've not watched one piece of video on that, nor have I read anything. So do I know what it is because of you, but if I didn't hear about it from you, I would not even know this thing existed. But how many people do you and when in when we look at the internet and I think Chappelle's Well, and listen, if thing came crashing into the earth and killed us all, was there anything that we could have been doing about?
SPEAKER_02:Nothing.
SPEAKER_00:Absolutely nothing. So you know what we should do?
SPEAKER_02:Be in the moment, right, right, enjoy each moment. But I'm using that on the big scale. But how frequently do you think that people try to solve stuff in their lives that just absolutely doesn't need to be solved?
SPEAKER_00:Like worried about what neighbors are doing, probably like 99.9% of the time, honestly. Yeah, right. You know, we're always worried about what other people are doing, right? And you know, I think one thing that I've gotten out of this meditation and mindfulness training is that I just look at people and I'm like, eh, it's out of my hands, not my life, and not in a mean way, but just that I don't have any control over it. And so if I don't have control over something, I'm not going to sit and worry about it. I don't have control over a flight being changed. I don't have control, you know, over somebody using my car and where they're going to drive it. Yeah. I don't have control over those things. So I could sit here and I can stress about them and I can get into this loop like you get into, or I can just be like, it is what it is.
SPEAKER_02:Something happens, it happens. When we think about Buddhism and you think about why Buddhism says that attachment is the beginning of suffering, how does trying to figure stuff out all the time lead to suffering?
SPEAKER_00:Well, this there's an attachment where we become attached to all these thoughts and the way that we want things to turn out. And so then what happens when it doesn't turn out that way and when we can't control what the outcome is going to be, or even each step along the way toward the outcome, right? Is that then we're we're not happy, we're discontent. I I think attachment is one of the greatest causes of suffering.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, yeah, 100%. I think part two, what happens too, is listening to somebody talk about uh George Lucas and how his sensibilities changed from when he was 30 years old George Lucas to 50 years old George Lucas and how Star Wars, you know, changed in that period of time because what 30-year-old George Lucas thought was entertaining or funny or cool was not what 50-year-old George Lucas thought, right? And it brings me back to this thought of always trying to figure stuff out, right? Because purpose, love, healing, grief, identity, timing, these things are not static. Would you say those are static things? Would you say that 40-something-year-old Lindsay has all the same worries and anxieties and wants that 23-year-old Lindsay had? No. No, absolutely, right?
SPEAKER_00:So why is it that But you know, interestingly, 23-year-old me was much more anxious than I am now. I'm right. What's the difference in my life between then and now is all the practices that I've put into place. Which, you know, one day hopefully you're gonna do the same thing.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, but the but the problem is that people approach life as if it's a puzzle to be solved. Right. Whereas I always say, and this is something like when people like what's the purpose of life, I always say to live it.
SPEAKER_00:Well, yeah, not everything is figure outable. Right, right, not every problem can be solved.
SPEAKER_02:Right. So let's move on to that. You know, how to recognize what is unfigure outable in your life. Um, a simple test. If thinking harder hasn't helped after a long time, it may not be a thinking problem. Does that mean say it again? If thinking harder hasn't helped, so I'm gonna look at this problem and I'm gonna think even harder. And you still can't figure it out. It may not, it may not be a thinking problem. What what does that mean to you?
SPEAKER_00:Maybe it's just not solvable. Right, right, right. Right, maybe there is no concrete answer.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, and unfigurable questions have these qualities. They are they often involve identity, and identity often changes. Who am I really?
SPEAKER_00:They often who are you now versus who you're gonna be five years from now.
SPEAKER_02:Right, and it goes back to that idea of changing sensibilities, right? They often involve timing. When will this happen? They often involve other people who we cannot control, right? They often involve future versions of us that don't even exist yet, right? I could think of 23-year-old Cleveland or uh let's go back because I'm gonna be how old I'm gonna be this year? I'm gonna be 53? Jesus, I'm 52. When did that happen?
SPEAKER_00:It's been great. I think you've had a very good last couple of years. I take you away for your birthday every year. That's why I'm planning the Naples trip for your birthday this year because I really wanted to go to the BVI, but we're gonna come down here and I have I have to adjust the dates to be away for your birthday because I always take you somewhere fun for your birthday. Uh maybe go to Prescott, but we'll figure it out. Um we're not, no, we are not because we're coming here for the summer. You just said that. We just hung up with the realtor. Yeah. And now you want to go to Arizona.
SPEAKER_02:No, no, no. We're gonna go here, we're gonna go here, but maybe sometime in 2026 we'll go to Prescott. Well, I'll figure it out. I'll figure that out.
SPEAKER_00:I already got that on the agenda. Uh uh, uh, don't worry. Don't you know what? It's now figure outable for you because I've already figured it out. Boom. So there you go. Stop overthinking. Live on the show, right?
SPEAKER_02:Live on the show. But I I I think the the the purpose is is is instead of asking yourself in these moments what is the correct solution, you know, which is how a is which is how people often try to figure out their problems in their life, is how am I meant to live in this moment, in this situation right now?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. And sometimes you just, you know, have to say, I'm not going to worry about how.
SPEAKER_02:Right, right. A lot of these questions, or a lot of times when we feel this way, they're they're emotionally charged. It's the pressure that you feel to get it right. Um and I think when you're trying to get something right all the time, or as my own therapist told me many years ago, why does everything have to be an A that you and what does it also mean to be right?
SPEAKER_00:Because what's right for you might not be right for someone else or not be right for me. But don't you feel like people are missing out on the experience? Because they're not present. Right. Because people always want to know what the next step is, like you were saying earlier. Yeah, so you miss out. I mean, most people are not present.
SPEAKER_02:Right, but you miss out on the whole experience. Right? You know, you you're here in lovely Florida, you're gonna be in Prescotty in the islands. And one of the great things about, you know, one of my bosses, you know, went to a place in Spain where they actually made them, they took away the phones. It reminds me of of this last season of White Lotus, because all these other things, this computer, these phones, this smart, all these TV, the 24-hour news, they present problems that need to be solved, right? Right. And a lot of times, as as Joseph Gwynn states in his book, Don't Believe Everything You Think, oftentimes the happiest you are is when you don't have anything on your mind, when there's nothing that needs to be solved, and there's nothing that needs to be done except to enjoy yourself, and which is why vacation is important. Hey, I've I've done a minimal amount of work here, right? And I'm happy. You know, I'm I'm I'm happy. I know.
SPEAKER_00:Well, and you said I'll work a little harder next week.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, and I'm just gonna work a little harder next week and I'm not even thinking about it because I've come to find out that you should work really hard next week because I'm actually not coming home with you. Oh, okay, my bad. Uh well we'll figure it out. Stay here. Oh, okay, we'll figure it out. But uh, but it reminds me of like fitting the square peg into the round hole. What I've often come to find out is when I'm trying too hard to do something, that that typically means that the thing that I'm trying to do probably should not be done. Right. That's true, very true. So let's think of some practical ways to practice allowing, right? Um Can you hear all this noise?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, because you're yeah this thing is driving me crazy. It's like half resting on my chest and half on a pillow. Well, that sounds like me last night. Okay, carry on.
SPEAKER_02:So, you know, let's let's as as we're working through this awkward setup, I want to think of some practical ways to practice allowing or practice, practice existing. And I think allowing is often misunderstood as giving up.
SPEAKER_00:And so, like if you're not going to figure it out, right, what what do you actually do?
SPEAKER_02:Right. And so for me, and this is what I've come to learn, is allowing means let's not force the outcome, let's not put the fit the square peg in the round hole.
SPEAKER_00:Right. Look at the situation. Can I control this or not? But what part of this is in my control? And most of the time, it's not much.
SPEAKER_02:Right. You know, one of the things that I learned at my job, you know, my former job is that you need to be proactive and not reactionary. And so proaction, proactive means that you're staying mindful and you're staying responsive to problems as they occur instead of being like, oh, I gotta, you know, and this is something, and I know this is gonna sound ironic for me, but instead of just being like, I gotta figure this out right here, right now, right this moment, you know, staying responsive means that you are in the moment. How can I fix this right now? But maybe it doesn't need to be fixed right now. Maybe we watch it play out a little bit and then we go to it. But oftentimes what people are is they're reactive. And what's the difference between being reactive and proactive, if you can define that for our audience?
SPEAKER_00:Well, I mean, being proactive is taking steps towards something, and being reactive is having a response or a reaction to something that happens. And it's also And that's also like allowing people to control your emotions when you're reactive to something.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Also, another thing when understanding that many things are out of your control is acting as if life has a guarantee. I think what the problem is, and I learned this a long time ago. Thank you, uh, Star Trek, uh, what whatever that terrible Star Trek movie was with Captain.
SPEAKER_00:Well, it's like I said about the my um, you know, the person in my meditation training, right? You don't know what's gonna come next.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. And I think what disappoints people is they think I'm gonna blake, you know, um, there's a line that I have in my book, Waiting for White Jesus, that I got from Lori, where Captain Picard tells Data, where he's like, listen, life is understanding you can do everything right and still fail.
SPEAKER_00:Absolutely.
SPEAKER_02:And so, as the saying goes, the best late plans of mouse and men, you know, often still go awry. And so I think what happens is folks go into things, and I know I've definitely used to be like this, and I try very, very, very hard not to be, is I don't know if anything is gonna is gonna be guaranteed, right? And I don't go into something saying, well, this is a guaranteed success, or I think it's gonna win. Might not, but I think when you set yourself up like I I think one of the things that happens with with clients, especially is if I get into this relationship or if I have this child or if I slip marry this what man or this woman, then things are gonna be okay.
SPEAKER_00:Right. Yeah, well, and I think oftentimes it's because they're trying to create something that's not even there.
SPEAKER_02:Right, right, right, right, right, right. Yeah, they right.
SPEAKER_00:And then what happens, right? You create a worse situation for yourself.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, some some grounded practices are are name the urge to force. And when I'm what I mean is like what I'm trying to do is I'm trying to catch myself when I'm trying to force something. I notice that I'm overly trying to control this. And if you notice, you know what? Like I was driving you crazy in in belly, what was it, blissful belly?
SPEAKER_00:Uh belly bliss cafe.
SPEAKER_02:Belly bliss cafe, and you were like, Cleveland, put the goddamn phone away. Stop, stop tracking the car. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And I had to ask myself because what were you going to do from here? Right. What were you gonna do? You don't even have the guy's phone number. I'm the one with the phone number. So what were you going to do if he took the car cross country?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. So so one of the things I noticed is that I'm starting trying to when I sit feel myself trying to control the uncontrollable or try to predict outcomes, I notice I'm trying to control this. Why am I trying to control this? You know, I think just being Well, I think you like to be the problem solver. Yeah, but not every problem. And I have clients that, and I'm learning because I think when you try to solve every problem, you drive yourself crazy because not every problem is solvable. Right. But I do think you like to solve problems. But I am learning uh more and more, and I think the awareness of it, like the awareness of why am I trying to control this thing when I should just be enjoying this thing, right? Is the important thing. I'm gonna say it one more time. Why am I trying to control this thing when I should be enjoying this thing? What does that mean to you?
SPEAKER_00:Well, doesn't that sound like something you need to solve? Right.
SPEAKER_02:Or or ask yourself, hey, what if I don't actually need to know the answer to this right now?
SPEAKER_00:Well, and and most of the time we don't. Right. And this is something I say all the time too, is that we only thing that we can control is what we do, say, how we act, what we think. We cannot control any of those things from other people. Right. So we can try, but we can't do it. So we can spend a whole lot of time worrying about things, or we could sit at the table together and have brunch and talk to each other and be in the moment instead of oh my god, where'd they go with the car? Oh my god, how are you gonna get the car back? Oh my god, where the kids are gonna be home, and and where's the car? Why isn't the car there? Where's the car? Where are they gonna put the keys? Are they gonna take the car? Where and it was like, I I don't know. And I don't know the answer to any of that, and it is not even on my mind.
SPEAKER_02:Well, thank you for shutting me down yesterday on that because I was taking myself out of the moment and I was and it was a lovely, enjoyable day. It was a great morning. And once I stopped thinking about and trying to solve that problem that was absolutely didn't, first of all, didn't need to be solved, right? There's there's so many problems, and this is my problem with social media, right? Is that social media will present you all of these problems, like Chappelle talks about it in in his latest um routine, and I'm not really gonna get into it, where people were comparing this internet person to Martin Luther King. And he was like, internet people are not there to solve problems, internet people are there to terrify you, to make you emotional, and to give you problems that you think that need to be solved, but that actually take you out of the present and take you out of your comfort zone, right?
SPEAKER_00:And it's that example you gave earlier where I said I would never have even known anything about that if you didn't tell me.
SPEAKER_02:Right, right. And so I think that is huge, right? You people are worried about relationships and defining a relationship. Whereas, hey, let me just do I need to end this right now, whereas let me just see how this plays out.
SPEAKER_00:Or do I need to make try to make this person see me for something else because they don't I don't feel like they see me that way, they don't perceive it that way. That's a big one too. Is there's a lot of people out there, and we'll talk about this in a different episode, that are in relationships that really they shouldn't even be in. And they're trying to force things that aren't there, right? Like we don't have to do that. Yes, you know, the universe is gonna help us figure it out.
SPEAKER_02:And and and that brings me to this next point is why are we responding to things that are actually not there? You you tell me all the time that I invent stories, and and and I do invent stories. You do you create stories that aren't even there, and and so what does and so how does trying to solve problems how does that actually make sense?
SPEAKER_00:It does the same thing, it just makes you crazy, right? It drives you crazy. You you know, I and your kids always say that about you too, is that you just you come up with this crazy idea and you you create this whole story about like one thing that you heard. Right, right, right, right. And then you go down this rabbit hole and you get so sucked into it.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, so so we respond, we're responding to things that are not actually there.
SPEAKER_00:Right. And one thing that I often say to you is like, well, you know what? Like, I really don't want to get aggravated. So, you know, don't share any more info with me. Right. Maybe I don't like to get activated emotionally. I I mean I know I know what my strengths are and I know what my weaknesses are. And I can go and get activated, you know, by somebody, but I I prefer to, I prefer to just stop it before it happens. Like, why am I going to, you know, listen to this whole thing and let you take me down the rabbit hole with you?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I I was listening to a great episode of This American Life uh last week, and I just found the so the whole thing so ludicrous. And it was about um uh these protesters out in Oregon that these anti-government protesters and government protesters would be appalled by your pronunciation. Oregon, the state. Oregon, Oregon, Oregon. Um, and it it in in at one point the person that was reporting on the story was like, hey, you do realize that you guys are actually causing the problem that you're saying that you're here to solve. That if you weren't protesting this ice facility, and if you weren't anti-protesting these ice protesters, there would be no problems here, right? And so I think what happens is folks are inventing things to respond to instead of actually responding to things that are going on in their in their personal lives.
SPEAKER_00:Well, and the other part of that is that, you know, I mean, yes, there's a lot of horrible things going on in the world, right? We can't, we don't have to deny that and we don't have to get into it here. But what we do have to think about is the fact that we we can actually use our voice on a more local level for things that would work. Right. And there are things that we can do. You know, we get stuck in what we, you know, what um I think Tara Brock, you know, says that we're like kind of taught hatred. And so we continue to then have new generations and continue to teach them and pass down the same kind of like hatred and you know, the same kinds of things. And so it in reality, sadly, we have absolutely no control over what ICE is going to do. And you can protest outside of a facility, but it's actually not going to do anything. Right, right. And so, you know, what what is it going to do? Okay, it's gonna bring attention to you, sure, if you get arrested or whatever it is. But at the end of the day, you know, do something like we do, which was adopt a family and physically buy them Christmas gifts. That was gonna be helpful to those fan that family this year and to those kids. And they got to wake up on Christmas morning and have a whole bunch of presents under the tree, right? That was something that we could directly impact somebody with. Standing outside of a facility is isn't and and protesting and getting into trouble for it is actually not going to make a difference because what's gonna happen? Nothing. Nothing. Absolutely nothing. They're still gonna go out, they're still gonna raid communities. And, you know, we don't have to sit here and discuss if it's right or if it's wrong, right? Because there's a lot of factors involved in all of this, and people see their one side of it that they want to look at. And in reality, there are a lot of people in this country, and I don't talk about politics, but there are a lot of people that do come here and are not documented that work harder than the people who were born here. But then there are also a segment of the people that come here that are actually criminals. And so, you know what? It's it's you know, the sad thing is, right, is that we can't decipher between the two. And so what does ICE do? They just find anybody, right? But the problem is that we can't control it.
SPEAKER_02:Right. And allowing is not passive, right? Allowing stuff to happen is not passive. It's it's being attuned to the things that I actually need to pay attention to. You're still listening, you're still moving, and you're still choosing, but you're not gripping the steering wheel so tightly that it's rubbing your hands raw and right.
SPEAKER_00:And and instead, you know, maybe what we can do is just relinquish the things that we don't have control over, stop trying to figure everything out, and just spread love instead of spreading more hate. Because in a way, the protesting is just also starting to spread more, you know, kind of like sadness and dissatisfaction is is what it is. Those people are not there smiling.
SPEAKER_02:Right. And the reporter said to one of the guys who was a provocateur who got his ass beat, she was like, Well, don't you think if you weren't here in the first place to do this thing to get these people riled up, that none of this would have happened? And he's like, Well, yeah. And so at what point Right.
SPEAKER_00:And so him being there and getting his ass beat, as you just said, which I didn't even know anything about this, right? What what what did that do? Did that shut down ice? It shut it down. Right. And so this is what I'm talking about. Like, we can't sit here and figure everything else out. But you know what? Ice agents who can maybe not be satisfied with that need to say, you know what, maybe this isn't the job for me. Right, right. If if my opinion differs from what I'm being told to do. But, you know, we can't control these things, it's completely out of our control. And and and in another example of that was what was happening, you know, in the Middle East for so long, and what probably continues to happen over there is that we can't we can stand on street corners and we can protest, but and the sad reality of it is that our protest isn't going to do anything. Right. And so what we need to do is do things at the local level and and you know, give back in the community, help people locally in the community, volunteer in your community for those people that are oppressed and those people that need support.
SPEAKER_02:How about volunteering your home? Love your wife, love your children, set start the example there, and it will spread and it will spread out naturally, right? If you are a good person and doing good things in your home with the people that you're it with, right? Um and we're not advocating remaining silent. What we're advocating is being attuned living from a place of love, right?
SPEAKER_00:Being living from your your heart and following your instincts and just loving everybody and spreading that love, not beeping the horn as soon as the light turns green, not cutting people off, right? Not cursing at people, not judging and criticizing and calling names, just spreading love. That that's what's gonna change the world.
SPEAKER_02:Earlier this week, you when I was in bed, you were listening to me. I didn't realize that you were listening to me. Remember the court case I was listening to with the sovereign citizen? Yep. And and the in the side, and he's like, I don't, I don't recognize your jurisdiction over me. And the judge was like, yo, bro, not only did you not know what you're doing, you filed the paperwork in Newark, New Jersey. This is Newark, Ohio. What advice did the judge give the guy at the end of the day for all his sovereign citizen? And I don't acknowledge what was do you remember the advice?
SPEAKER_00:I don't even remember because I probably fell asleep because I was like, This is so crazy how many hours of your life you waste listening to this nonsense.
SPEAKER_02:But the judge told him at the end of the day, he's like, yo, dude, I tell you what, he's like, all of you guys that are out there fighting the system, saying the system is wrong, he was like, I'm gonna give you a piece of advice. The more you fight the system, the more the system is gonna fight you. And if you just sat and if you just complied, and we're not talking about complying with with wicked things or or evil things, but if you just complied with paying your taxes, doing getting your driver's license, doing the things that you were supposed to do and not trying to look for problems to solve, you wouldn't have no problems.
SPEAKER_00:There's plenty of places. I mean, listen, there's rules everywhere. Right. And there's plenty of places where there's rules. Just follow the rules. Just follow the rules. Follow the rules. Just follow the rules. And you know, and and and and and granted, in some places, right, the rules are not always the best. And I use schools as an example, right? Of having to sit a certain way and do a certain thing and perform a certain way. Okay. You know, that's why people rebel rebel, right? Because they feel very out of control. But it's it's just like follow the rules. You know, like I say to you down here, it's an interesting place when you come here because everything is immaculately clean. Right. You know, we go out, everything is beautiful, it's decorated. And I said to you yesterday, it's like you go to New York, and yeah, people love to come to New York. So much nicer down here.
SPEAKER_02:And and and the important the in the un the unfortunate thing. Because the way life is and the way it works, and just gonna move on from that really quickly, but tie it into it, is clarity often comes after you do a thing and not before. And that's something that you've taught me, right? Like I don't know what's gonna be up that road, right?
SPEAKER_00:Right, but you know what? You're never gonna know if you don't just take the road.
SPEAKER_02:But we're taught often is I will I will once I know, then I will act. But the truth is, is I've acted.
SPEAKER_00:But as soon as you know that, then you're gonna wonder what the next thing is, and you're gonna be constantly, like you're saying, looking to the top of the staircase. And oftentimes we achieve all these things and we're not happy.
SPEAKER_02:Right.
SPEAKER_00:We are not happy, right? And and and that's the difference, I think. We you and I were talking we talk about this often because I've always, always been the way that I am.
SPEAKER_01:Right.
SPEAKER_00:From a very young age. I'm like, eh, you don't like it? Too bad I'm gonna do it anyway because I want to do it. And and so I've never lived my life according to what other people said I should do. And it has driven you crazy. So and and I but I am so content with my life and the way that things are.
SPEAKER_02:So when we think about solving a a problem in your life or or eliciting a change in your life, it what makes more sense? Does it make sense to just be like, well, I'm gonna read this book, I'm gonna read that book, and I'm gonna sit here and I'm gonna think about it and think about it and think about it, or does it make more sense to act?
SPEAKER_00:Well, I it depends. And you can't no, you can't keep reading a book and reading a book and reading a book, right? Because at some point, the tea all the teachers will tell you just get out of the books, stop reading the books and start using the tools. So, you know, you have to use the tools that you have.
SPEAKER_02:Right. Because action creates feedback, right? Experience reveals information that thought alone cannot access, right? Because thought alone will just keep you in a thought loop, right? You don't discover what feels aligned by imagining it, you discover it by actually doing it. Absolutely, right? So, so me thinking about or a person thinking about or contemplating it's it's like there's a great, there's one of my favorite sayings is that guy knows 99 ways to make love, but can't get a date on a Saturday night. What does that actually mean? 99, you know 99 ways to make love, but you can't get a date on it.
SPEAKER_00:But it doesn't matter because you can't put any of it into action.
SPEAKER_02:Ah, so the action piece is what is important.
SPEAKER_00:And the problem is, and and the not the problem is the good thing is so get the date on Saturday night and then worry about making love.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah, then then worry. But I have folks that actually get per and I'm not gonna put anybody on blast, but I to use that as an example, I've worked with folks in the past that are so worried about the end result. Am I gonna be able to make love to this person or am I gonna it's like they're getting their heads and they can't even get on a date. Right.
SPEAKER_00:And I have the same thing with people who are miserable in their jobs and they're counting down to retirement and it's impacting every area of their life. And it's just like, you know, it it it's you know what, there are other things you can do out there. That's not the only job for you, right? Right. And it's it's again, it's a compromise. We're constantly compromising who we are.
SPEAKER_02:And you have to understand that you don't, whereas we would like to be pretty certain on things, is acting on something doesn't require certainty, right? Because acting is what generates real data, it generates real emotion, it real it generates real physical contact. And acting, if you succeed or if you fail, builds trust in yourself.
SPEAKER_00:That's right. Right? Yeah, well, you get to know yourself better through it.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, clarity emerges through participation and not through observation. What does that mean?
SPEAKER_00:Clarity emerges through what?
SPEAKER_02:Participation and not observation.
SPEAKER_00:Well, it's again, it's action, like you were just talking about, right? It's like, you know, you you learn by how you do things. And you know, and sometimes you don't always learn the best lesson. No, and I always say that we learn from relationships and we learn from jobs and we learn from family and from you know, whatever we're doing in our life, that you know, sometimes what we learn is how we wouldn't do it again. Right. And what doesn't work for us. Yes. And and that's what people are so worried about. Like, who cares? Like, you know, you fail every single time that you don't try and you don't take that chance, you fail automatically.
SPEAKER_02:I saw Jason Parge, and I think it was a video that he had on TikTok the other day, that he said the problem with so many stories are so many stories are give you a happy ending. And he was like, Life relative doesn't necessarily give you a happy ending. And he he goes back and looks at a movie like the first Rocky, right? Where Rocky actually doesn't beat Apollo at the end of the movie, but it's the effort that he came close to beating Apollo, and he was like, that is really what life is is usually about. Like I came really, really close to doing this thing that I thought I was gonna do and I didn't quite make it this first time, but this gave me a platform where I could try it again. And and that sometimes in failing, the fact that we could get close to the thing that we thought we never could get close to, that that in itself is victory enough. Hey, we learned that in Sugar Rush last night where we won. We won even though we didn't actually win, but we won because we got right there if we had 30 seconds more.
SPEAKER_00:Which we would have had if two of the things weren't broken in the room.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, if two of the things weren't, but sometimes it is not, it is just trying to do the thing is the victory enough than it is to to succeed at doing the thing. What do you think about that? I agree with you.
SPEAKER_00:And and I and and that's and that's where we hold ourselves back, right? Is that we wait and we wait and we wait and we think that the you know that things are gonna happen and come to fruition without us actually have taking any action. And you know, and it's it's we're sitting here trying to figure everything out. And that's why, you know, that's why I wanted to talk about this today is that we don't have to always have the answers. We don't have to know the end result, and we don't have to figure everything out. And it we talked about this a few weeks ago about just letting go and surrendering. So, you know, what if you just let fig things figure themselves out?
SPEAKER_02:The problem with always trying to figure something out is believe it or not, when you're always trying to figure something out, you're really not present and you're oftentimes l uh l uh missing context clues.
SPEAKER_00:Right. I mean, a perfect example is with you with your book recently. What's happened? All of a sudden you have all these speaking engagements and you're getting invited to do these talks and to join book clubs and do all this stuff that you didn't even look for it. But in all the times that you were on there checking everything and doing everything.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, that was a waste of my time.
SPEAKER_00:Right, because now look, it all came to be the way it was supposed to, and you didn't have to figure any of it out because it was all figured out for you.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I used to spend like a lot of times, like you do my KDP numbers, like doing the marketing, and now folks are coming to me, right? And which is great, right? Do I still have to put a little bit of effort in? Of course, because you reap what you sow. So you do have to put in effort. You can't be lazy. Yeah, you can't be lazy, but you also have to be attuned. And when you're constantly trying to figure something out, it means that you are probably not attuned and you're missing, and what what is it? What you can't see the forest because of the trees.
SPEAKER_00:No, right?
SPEAKER_02:As the saying goes, and because you're so big trying to figure out the big question that you're missing the small piece. Instead of asking, how do I figure it out? Here's some questions. What am I actually being asked to do? Right? What's one step I can take now without needing the entire answer? And can I trust myself to figure it out as I go along? That's how I've done this whole marriage, by the way.
SPEAKER_00:And I was just about to say my hand is falling asleep from holding this mic up in the air. I'm getting sleepy. Yeah, yeah, we're gonna be. I'm like lounged back on the couch with a bunch of pillows. Yeah, we're about to go out right now. Let's go to happy hours. Time to wrap up happy hours. So I'm gonna I'm gonna just live.
SPEAKER_02:Some real shoes today. I'm gonna have to change. Um can't wear that not to the happy house. No, no, no, I'm gonna wear something fancy. Plus, you wore that on the bike this morning. Yeah, yeah, I'm gonna change it. You probably smell too. No, take a shower. No, no, it's not. Okay. I'm gonna figure that one out. So the last thing I wanna say is, and I've come to learn this, and for all of you out there that are struggling with trying to figure stuff out, or trying to figure out what the Atlas 3i is, or trying to figure out how we're gonna get Donald Trump out of office, or trying to figure out Zorhan, how Zorhan is gonna impact New York, or trying to figure out what Gavin Newsom is doing in California, let me give you a piece of advice. Life is not a test that you pass by choosing things correctly or incorrectly. It is a relationship that you build by showing up daily and being present.
SPEAKER_00:I like that. And it's a good place to wrap up.
SPEAKER_02:This has been live pre-recorded from uh somewhere in where are we at? Naples Park. Naples Park, yeah. Naples Park, a couple steps from the beach, steps from Vanderbilt Beach on a balmy 63-degree day. It's not balmy, it's freezing. Freezing. Windy. Windy 63 degree day, but lovely day. Uh nonetheless, this has been Cleveland and Lindsay. And this has been another episode of The Devil You Don't Know.
