The Devil You Don’t Know
In The Devil You Don’t Know, Lindsay, Cleveland, and their guests discuss personal growth and development by taking chances and getting out of your comfort zone. Topics range from whimsical to serious and everything in between but are always relevant to growth and development.
The Devil You Don’t Know
From Numbing To Knowing: Practicing Everyday Courage
Healing doesn’t arrive with a ribbon and a theme song. It’s a gritty, everyday practice of choosing honesty over autopilot, boundaries over people-pleasing, and presence over numbness. We open up about the kind of courage that rarely gets applause: the quiet, internal work that changes how you meet your life, one small decision at a time.
We start by reframing healing from a destination into a set of daily choices. That shift matters, because when you expect a finish line, every hard day feels like failure. We share personal stories of leaving relationships and jobs, confronting religious conditioning, and the relief that comes when you stop living for the crowd and start living for your why. Along the way, we dig into the sticky scripts we inherit—unlovable, difficult, selfish—and how to rewrite them with evidence, not fantasy. You’ll hear practical language for self-talk that actually softens shame and builds momentum.
Because courage is embodied, we bring in mindful tools that meet you where you are. If breathwork helps, great; if it spikes anxiety, anchor to contact points like feet on the floor or the soundscape around you. We walk through pendulation—moving between a felt sense of ease and a point of discomfort—to grow capacity without flooding your system. Add micro-practices to your day: one pause before replying, naming the feeling out loud, a minute of daylight to reset your nervous system. These small reps build regulation, and regulated bodies make brave choices possible.
We close with an invitation: pick one tiny act of healing courage this week. Have the hard conversation. Rest without guilt. Or look in the mirror and say, I forgive you, I love you, I see you, keep going. If this conversation helps, follow the show, share it with a friend who needs a nudge, and leave a quick review—what’s the one courageous step you’ll take today?
Please email us at Gettoknowthedevil@gmail.com
This is Cleveland. This is Lindsay. And this is another episode of The Devil You Don't Know. Lindsay, what are we gonna be talking about today? Courage is a really big thing. What do you mean by that that courage is a really big thing?
SPEAKER_01:Well, it's a quality that we admire in people, but it's really hard sometimes. And it takes courage to be on the path, to heal yourself, to work on yourself, and to live the life that you want to live.
SPEAKER_00:You know, uh I I think people often toss around the word. Uh I'm traumatized. I think people often toss around the word, I uh the phrase I need to heal. Um and they act like it's like leaving one day's destination to get to another.
SPEAKER_01:Wait, I wanted to give you props for a minute before we started. Oh. Because you are in your holiday roast baking era.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, well, let's talk about that, and then we'll get back to the show.
SPEAKER_01:We all know that Cleve loves a good vegan holiday roast. And no one else in the house is allowed to ever cook a roast, myself included, and I'm a pretty good cook. Yeah. Oh, but I know, you know, I know a thing or two about, but my roasts come out good, don't they? Yes, I was just that's why I was giving you props because you, you know, you base them, you bear baste them, you make different kinds of glazes for them, you roast them, you put them in the air fryer.
SPEAKER_00:Do my thing.
SPEAKER_01:I think this I so far this year, I think you might have made every roast on the market.
SPEAKER_00:Well, I I think I have, and currently a field roast if you'd like to sponsor us. Is that a field roast? Yeah, that is the field, that's the cranberry.
SPEAKER_01:That's the celebration roast, I think, right? Uh or the cranberry hazelnut pastry, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, but the pastry.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, but but you know what? While we're on it, let's talk about Toeferki for a minute. How they seriously underproduce for the holidays. Oh, yes. What? To Furkey, get yourselves together and make more of those hams.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I forgot that I had a whole bunch.
SPEAKER_01:Those ham you don't have any more, do you?
SPEAKER_00:No, no.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, those are the best. And those vegan hams are only available at like the holidays, and they come out before Thanksgiving. And then once they're out, after like two weeks, you can't find one anywhere again.
SPEAKER_00:I think people buy them like four at a time. Well, now you know what you need to do next year. Yeah, because that's when we saw them, I got the last two and then forgot that I had the other one, and I'm like freaking out and trying to.
SPEAKER_01:Because you wanted another. I know we looked everywhere. I mean, we were at Wegmans, we went to different Whole Foods. I looked for those roasts everywhere, and even in Florida, because you know, we go down to Fran and Bob's for Christmas, my mom and dad's. Fran and Bob. And um my mom was able to find one last year, if you remember. Yes, yes. But my mom said she looked everywhere this year, and there's just no Toferkee ham roasts to be found. I think Ice deported them all because Toferki needs to get it together. They need to produce a little bit more at the holidays.
SPEAKER_00:Yes, they do. Toferki, if you if you're listening to this, please produce more for the holidays. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:All right, anyway. Anyway, carry on. Should we talk about the bread?
SPEAKER_00:Oh, yeah. Well, yes, please. And then we'll get back to the the show that you've just hijacked just now. But tell us about tell us about the bread. Well, your bread. Yeah, as you have like six loaves of bread that you freshly baked.
SPEAKER_01:So when the kids lived here, I had no time for hobbies.
SPEAKER_00:I'm like just looking, you're like, yo, you didn't eat the bread yet? And it's like, well, it's only like 15 loaves. Yeah, but when are you gonna eat it? Well, you just keep making them. But go ahead.
SPEAKER_01:I there's only two of us. I do, and I don't really eat it.
SPEAKER_00:And then I'm coming in with hamburger buns, and you're like, yo, but I have bread here.
SPEAKER_01:And I'm like, why did you buy buns? I said that to you. Because eat your burger on a bread! I don't want it on a custom made. And you know what's gonna happen? I'm gonna tell you that I would have made you rolls. You should have just told me.
SPEAKER_00:Next time make me rolls to make bread. I didn't need my burger, my vegan burger on a garlic, on uh on roasted garlic sourdough?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, on a customer. What about olive rosemary?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, an olive rosemary. I just don't think that's, you know.
SPEAKER_01:But I would have made you rolls. And then you know what's gonna happen? I'm gonna make a prediction. Those pepperage farm rolls that you brought in are not even gonna taste nearly as good as my homemade bread.
SPEAKER_00:I'm sure it won't, but it's made for a sandwich. It's made for a burger.
SPEAKER_01:But I'll make you a bun.
SPEAKER_00:Next, well, make me a bun. Okay. Please do.
SPEAKER_01:But so I was saying I have no time for hobbies when the kids lived here. And now I have time for all the hobbies. I play the harmonium, I'm taking my lessons, and I'm making sourdough. I took a class, and wow, do we have sourdough and sourdough discard literally up to my eyeballs? You do. I make discard crackers last week. I make discard slicing bread. This week I made a discard um round loaf. And then every week I make sourdough because I have to feed my sourdough, my my starter. So I made it this, you know, this week went, oh my lord, by the way, do you know how much starter I have now? And I keep emptying it out. I have so much starter.
SPEAKER_00:I think you're like the you probably won't get this reference.
SPEAKER_01:If anybody needs some starter, my starter is alive and kicking. You can really make some good bread with it. I'm happy to share some because we we are gonna be making sourdough for the rest of our lives.
SPEAKER_00:You are the bread Heisenberg right now, or the bread Walter White of breaking bad. You're just doing it with bread.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, so every every week I make some sourdough. I feed my dough, my my uh starter on the weekend and I let it bubble on the counter. It gets very happy. And then on usually I put some dough together, and you know, it's like a 24 to 48 hour process. And then, you know, this morning I made a roasted garlic sourdough that I started yesterday and I put on a nice cold ferment overnight. And then I made that rosemary olive sourdough that you like. Right. And you freaking bought buns.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, because you said you you got me some of those uh the burger, the bean burgers. The actual burger.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I love actual burgers.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, those are actually good. Actual burgers have no oil in them, they're very good for you. Did I do a pun that the actual burgers are actually good?
SPEAKER_01:So, anyway, that's what's happening over here.
SPEAKER_00:Sorry, sorry, sorry for getting into the show.
SPEAKER_01:So sorry. Sorry, sorry for you know you having an agenda. I didn't know. But anyway, we should carry on because your hazelnut cranberry roast in puff pastry is gonna be ready by the time I finish talking about my bread.
SPEAKER_00:But the bread was very, that was very I think you know what? Here it is. Why don't you we we were gonna do your other podcast eventually, but I hope that we do get to do it. But why don't you just tell just start a baking podcast with your cousin also? Oh, you know, you and Lori, you could do you and Lori could talk about all your different uh yes, this will be, I'm gonna pitch this on your birthday. Oh, snap, and that reminds me. I also have to call the calico lounge back. Uh I'm gonna I'm gonna pitch this for you on your birthday, um a Lori Lindsay uh collaboration uh podcast. It doesn't have to be about Star Trek either.
SPEAKER_01:Well, I don't think that would be a good topic for me. Yeah, I'm really not familiar with anything but Spock. Yeah, Dr.
SPEAKER_00:Spock.
SPEAKER_01:But we could do um some We did go to see the Wicked movie, though. Yeah, we didn't. We went with Lori and Denise and we went to the Alamo. I love that Alamo.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Okay, anyway. Okay, are you ready now? Yes, I I I'm back on topic now. I just wanted to talk about my bread. There's so much bread in the kitchen. But you know what at Thanksgiving when the kids were home? Right. I was like, oh my god, there's so much bread. This bread is gonna go bad. This bread is gonna go bad. And they ate it all. All of the bread. They ate all the bread. So now there's a lot of bread. I also shouldn't tell you, I have a rye loaf in the freezer.
SPEAKER_00:Let's see. I mean, you're standing in front of like six loaves, and you say, and I heard you say to yourself, I think I have a problem. He said it low, but I heard it. I couldn't.
SPEAKER_01:Because I don't know. Here, you know, I had a I just I told you. All right, hold on. I have an idea. I have an idea. I'm gonna put it out there. This is gonna be a Lori Lindsay. Okay, you know how that person up the street is selling salt? Oh. I could put like a little tiny house at the end of our driveway and sell my bread.
SPEAKER_00:Sell bread.
SPEAKER_01:Is that allowed?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, 30 bread,$30 a barrel, a basket. Like he's selling, like he's selling the salt.
SPEAKER_01:Is it allowed?
SPEAKER_00:I could do like sourdough discard crackers and I think one of our neighbors would shut it down. Yeah, they would probably call the health department. I think I think so.
SPEAKER_01:I told you that's why I need a property upstate. I could live off the land. I don't want to see the road from the house, and I don't want to see the neighbors, but I'm gonna put a little shed up at the top with an honor market inside of it, and it's gonna be all of my vegan milks and my homemade breads and all. I mean, what else did I make today? I mean, and what did I make you today?
SPEAKER_00:I don't know.
SPEAKER_01:What do you mean you ate two of them?
SPEAKER_00:It's the tacos, it was the tofu crumble.
SPEAKER_01:Donuts today. Oh I made you vegan baked donuts with vanilla maple frosting.
SPEAKER_00:And I tried to deceive myself that they were healthy.
SPEAKER_01:You said, Oh, those taste really healthy. And they're just not fried in a vat of oil. They're baked.
SPEAKER_00:And then you also went to describe what was in them. It was like sugar, sugar, and sugar.
SPEAKER_01:Flour, coconut sugar, baking powder, baking soda, applesauce.
SPEAKER_00:Sugar.
SPEAKER_01:Applesauce is applesauce. Fructose. And uh some maple syrup, vanilla. That was very good. That was good. And some plant milk, which I made homemade soy milk I had in the fridge. I used that.
SPEAKER_00:Look at you. Look at you. I'm very spoiled. I should be, I should be thankful. I I I I am gonna keep this podcast idea to myself. I will pitch it on the 19th. It might inv it might involve baking and maybe baking.
SPEAKER_01:Um let's get back to courage is a really big thing.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so courage is a really big thing, right? You know, what I was saying um was is like sometimes people don't realize that they they think of it as in this way that we toss around the word healing like it's a destination, a state of arrival. But what if that whole idea is completely wrong? What if healing isn't a place that you get to, but it's a series of courageous choices that you make every single day. I think about my own journey. And when I was down at the Hope program a couple of weeks ago talking about my own journey um and how you facilitated me on that journey and other people in my life, it wasn't about getting to a destination, right? And it's still not about where I'm at. And it's like I told my good friend Tim Kirk on his podcast, uh uh 2Q 2QZ, Z2Q, I forget how to say it.
SPEAKER_01:Is he still on his podcast?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, he does. He we should do a crossover with him, wouldn't it?
SPEAKER_01:Oh, yeah, yeah. Well, let's we can discuss that later. Yeah, carry on.
SPEAKER_00:We'll hit him up. Um I've already gone enough off topic. Yes, way, but we there's more bread over there. Um, but but what he asked me in that podcast is when did I know I had made it? And I was like, Tim, um, I haven't made it yet.
SPEAKER_01:Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_00:I'm still making it every day. And I think that is what is courage, right? Courage is the is the courage to get up and fight through every day to get from here to there to wherever else you're gonna go.
SPEAKER_01:Right. And um I had my meditation training uh last week, you know, the two-hour training. It was my turn to teach. And in the beginning, we always do a check-in. And when we checked in last week, she was asking about our practice and you know, where our practice was going at that time. And my practice lately has been around forgiveness of self and forgiveness of others. And this has been really hard for me. And I started crying when I was talking about it in my training. And and I said, you know, it's like some days you feel great and some days you feel depressed, and some days you feel sad. And she said, you know, and that's the thing, right? You have these breakthrough moments when you sit and it's uncomfortable. And she said, Sometimes, Lindsay, it just feels like shit. Right. But, you know, the thing is, is that takes courage, right, to sit with that shit and to sit in it and to be present with all of those really difficult emotions that come up with it.
SPEAKER_00:Right. Yeah, I I think when people think of courage, they think of uh dramatic acts, they think of running into a burning building or speaking truth to power. And and while those things are courage, I think the way that you're describing courage, the courage of healing, that it's more of a quieter thing, it's a more internal thing, and it's a more um well it's it's your own personal strength, right?
SPEAKER_01:And your own your own personal, you know, kind of will and determination to just be in these moments that are hard to be in. That's really what courage is, right? And it's the same thing as running into a burning building. That's not easy, right? But it is just being able to be, you know, be there, do do the things that are difficult, even though they're difficult. That's what takes courage.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it it's like I I I I worked with someone uh some time ago that was struggling with drinking, and after, you know, we had worked together for some time, and then after all of a sudden, like, you know, midway through the relationship, he's like, Oh yeah, by the way, um, you know, I've I've you know, I had to sign up for like a uh drinking counseling at work, and I'm like, oh, why have we never talked about that? And and it is, and when we started talking about the drinking, right, it was the purpose of the drinking was to s was so that he would numb himself because he didn't have the courage kind of to face, you know, the drinking gave him courage to face his reality or to face the things that were upsetting him because they numbed him, right? And so courage is I for for me when I think of of finding courage or the courage to heal, it's to stop numbing yourself and it's choosing, right? Because us as men, especially now nah son, we can't cry, you know, or shame. Nah, we can't feel no shame. It's the courage to feel the grief, to process the anger, to understand the shame that you've been running a w a war uh away from from years. And I think of courage is to turn inward, right? Or turn toward the pain instead of simply, you know, being like, I'm gonna drink, I'm gonna smoke, I'm gonna have sex with all these different people.
SPEAKER_01:Those are distractions.
SPEAKER_00:Right.
unknown:Okay.
SPEAKER_01:I mean, that's all that that is. That's a distraction.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Because we are, you know, we don't what we don't realize is that life and the path that we're on is not just kind of a, you know, it's not all blissful and and wonderful. It's like an excavation site. We're constantly digging at our layers, right? When we work on ourselves. We have to dig through these layers of ourselves, our fears, resistance, all these old wounds that come up, addictions to our own stories, the things that we tell ourselves. And then, you know, um there's this whole idea that then what, you know, what happens when the like the shovel hits a rock? Right. Right? It's immovable, and then we become stuck, and that's where we need courage. Right? We can dig and dig and dig and dig and dig, but we need to find the courage to kind of keep digging when it gets hard.
SPEAKER_00:I think it's the courage also to rewrite your story. Um, like I like to quote Bell Hooks uh a lot, but Bell Hooks in the on autobiography talks about like the the the uh you know the revisiting her life through through by by rewriting it or journaling it. Um and it one of the things that is that I always get stuck on is you get a client or you get somebody in your life that that says that they want to change, that they don't want, they don't like the way they they view themselves or think about themselves or whatever. And it's like, have you ever like sought told that person how you see them? Like, I see you as successful, I see you as handsome, I see you as beautiful, and they almost like rail back against you. You know what I'm saying? Have you ever had that? Like where the person is uncomfortable with the compliment or uncomfortable with the idea that that they that they are not the story that they've created for themselves.
SPEAKER_01:Well, I've actually never said that to a client, but I do tell clients, I ask clients who told you that about yourself. Is it yourself or are you getting that message from somebody else?
SPEAKER_00:Right, right. You know, there's this these ideas that people have made for themselves that I'm broken, I'm ugly, I'm unlovable, I'm I I don't deserve good things. You know, I when I suggest the idea of of trying to understand it, of of like actually going back, I've really literally had people buckle, brace, you know, like and and think of it as a foreign as a foreign idea. Like, you know, the idea that you can determine your own story is a very, very, very uncomfortable thing for for for some people. And I would have got your idea, like, why do you think that is?
SPEAKER_01:Well, because people, we live in a world where we, as we talked about in our last episode, is we look to the external for all the answers and for all of our happiness. We don't listen to ourselves.
SPEAKER_00:Not at all. And why do you think we don't listen to ourselves?
SPEAKER_01:Well, well, I mean, I know for myself, I I had a lot of feedback from the people in my life growing up about how I should live my life and what I needed to do. And I think people are afraid to damage those relationships or go up against somebody.
SPEAKER_00:Right, right. I I think another thing too is people pleasing. And it's something that we touch on every week. It falls into that category. Yeah, something that you touched on last week. Um, and I think it's courage to be, as uh Kid Fury had once said on the on the read many, many, many years ago, is I have boundaries. And if you need me to be the villain, I will be Cruella de uh Deville. Right. And it's so it's the the courage of being the bad guy. And what does that mean? The courage of being the bad guy.
SPEAKER_01:Well, it's not necessarily the bad guy. It's it's just the courage of being who you are.
unknown:Right, right.
SPEAKER_01:So for you to be your authentic self, stop being what other people want you to be or say that you should be and just be yourself.
SPEAKER_00:Right. So for you, so for a person, your healing could look like you changing, you pulling away, um, or you becoming difficult. Because and and and people have told me that, like, oh, you know, my family says I'm becoming difficult or or I'm different. And I was like, Well, how do you feel? Well, I feel much better about the decisions I'm making in my life, in my life. Right.
SPEAKER_01:So, so why is it but those people will come around, right? I will say that, right? Because look at my parents now, right? My father has definitely come around. And I think if you asked my father, he would be able to describe me as like somebody who is not going to do what other people tell them to do, and who's certainly not going to do something that they don't want to do.
SPEAKER_00:And and and so that courage to pull away from families or systems that might have expectations for you that are contrary for the happiness of yourself, is that a one-time event? Is that something you do once and it's yes, I've done, I've conquered it? Or how frequently do you how how how how diligent do you have to be about being you and about boundaries?
SPEAKER_01:Well, you always have to have boundaries. Because you you if you want people to respect you and interact with you and love you in the way that you want to be loved and respected and interacted with, then you have to always have the boundaries and then people learn how to interact with you. I always say that. People know, and I tell every one of my clients this, and people know this about me, is that if you want to have a social interaction with me or a friendship with me, this is how it's gonna go. Right. This is how these are my boundaries, and this is how my friendships are. And if you don't like that, then that's fine. I'm not for you.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah. Like this, it's it's so it's not a one-time event. It's like I'm gonna tell my family or I'm gonna tell this person, I'm gonna live in this authentic way just once. Like in a movie where a character makes a change and it's like, oh, all of a sudden everybody respects him. It is a it is a daily thing. Um, experts note that people who who have boundaries who are quote unquote the bad guy and tell people like, hey, I don't want to do that, I don't need to do that. Um, they're linked to greater resilience and even reduced. PTSD symptoms. What do you think about that?
SPEAKER_01:Well, I would agree because they're living the life that they want to live.
SPEAKER_00:What's um and do you have like maybe on your own, like uh a courage, something that you did that was courageous, um, that you would say that led to your own healing journey?
SPEAKER_01:Well, I I I walked away from a marriage that wasn't for me. I mean, I think that was the biggest one was I I walked away from, you know, a situation where I I was married to someone who did very well financially, and I I didn't work, and I really didn't, you know, I really relied very heavily on that person to support me, and I I walked away from a very comfortable life. Sold a house, moved into an apartment, went back to work after 10 years of not working, and you know, it's it took it took a lot of courage. It was not easy. There were a lot of tears, there were a lot of sleepless nights, but now on the other side of it, I'm much happier. Right, right.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it reminds me, and I quote this every week, but Philippians 2.12, which is work out, and I'll quote it as long as it's relevant, which is work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, right? The reason why it takes courage is because it's not easy. Um, because the Bible says itself that that working out your own salvation is gonna be hard. You have to do it with fear, you have to do with trembling. Uh, for me, ironically, uh, I got several situations, and you've helped me get the courage, because I uh for a long time was scared of change. If it ain't broke, don't it's well.
SPEAKER_01:You also grew up in a religion that taught you that everything that you got was you can know, everything that you had to do was for somebody else. Right. It's never anything about what do you want? Right. And what do you want for yourself? It was like this is just the way that you live.
SPEAKER_00:Right, right. And so for me, my courage came from learning to walk away from things that didn't suit me anymore. Right. Um, I hang I hung on to my first marriage far too long, right? For reasons that were far far too silly. Um and I think for the most part is because I was afraid of disappointing the congregation, uh, disappointing. It was like every decision, and a lot of people do this was not about how it impacted me, was what is everybody gonna think, right? Right. You know, one of the thin biggest things, and I'm going to rant for a second here. I feel the rant growing. One of the biggest things that used to make me crazy, um, and then it stuck with me for a long time, is like, don't do things because they're gonna bring shame on Jehovah. Oh, it's gonna bring shame on God. You know what you can't do? Shame God. You can't shame God. You can shame yourself, right?
SPEAKER_01:Well, how would God want you to live your life? Right. I I'm I'm curious because you know, I don't go to church and I don't believe in organized religion like that, but how would God want you to live your life? Miserable and following what other people tell you to do, or would God want you to have internal happiness and contentment and live your life the way that you want to live it?
SPEAKER_00:Internal happiness and contentment. And there are shameful acts, right? But when the church teaches you that that shame is is is something that you should not uh you shouldn't shame somebody external from you, that's teaching you not to have agency. You should do, you should not do something because it brings shame to you, because it besmirches your good name, not the name of the congregation, not the name of the family, not the name of some of an entity that you know, if he if I believe he does exist, but if you don't believe he exists, but if he exists, I I I I know he exists, but if he exists, he ain't got he ain't got time to be well, look at what Lindsay did yesterday. She ate five grapefruits and a banana. Oh, I mean you know, it's a so you can't shame God. How can you you can bring shame to yourself? And so I what what I believe, you know, and my personal courage, uh my personal story, uh was leaving a marriage eventually, um, leaving a job most recently that I was very scared to leave for a long time.
SPEAKER_01:And look at you now.
SPEAKER_00:I'm doing okay.
SPEAKER_01:You're doing better than okay, in my eyes.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, I'll be great when I'm Did anybody win the 1.0? I don't know. 1. Probably not. Um, but that took personal courage for me, right? And so I would like you in the audience to go out and think about your own personal stories. Like, what did it take courage uh for you, right? Um, to to move on. Uh what are some tools as we as we move on? Because I I know this this oven's gonna beep any minute. What are some tools to build the courage muscle, Lindsay? Or what are some ways that folks can build up courage, the change?
SPEAKER_01:Well, I it's first to identify what it is that you want, is number one. And then how are you gonna get that? And and it it's about being able to communicate effectively, set boundaries, and really be okay with the discomfort that comes along with making changes.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Um, it's not gonna magically appear. Um I I would think I I can hear my Lindsay voice saying this is that first we practice, acknowledge like small courage, or I take small m measures of mindfulness. Did I take a deep breath before I reacted? Is that is that one cleave should do? I think so.
SPEAKER_01:Sometimes. Um Yeah, very reactive, though, unless unless somebody really did you're very reactive.
SPEAKER_00:Did you take a deep breath? You know, I just I said that one. Did you name your feeling? Like, wait, did you name your feeling? And that's something I struggle with, right? Right is did I name my feeling before I reacted? Did I name my feeling, you know?
SPEAKER_01:Well, I think what happens with people is that the the time between the incident and the reaction, that's where the pause needs to occur. And people don't pause. People are so impulsive, that's where they have the reaction.
SPEAKER_00:I I also think it's under it's important in these moments of courage to understand your why.
SPEAKER_01:Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00:Why am I doing this? I know why you're doing this. You know why you're doing this for your next vacation in your Caribbean home. That's why you do this. I do this because I like money sometimes, a lot of times.
SPEAKER_01:Um I want my Caribbean home.
SPEAKER_00:And the only way you can get your Caribbean home is if I work and get that money. So I might have to do like one or two notes later on after I dil eat this delicious cranberry uh hazelnut roast. Um, but it's understanding your why. And I have often find, like I actually had a debate with a with a person once uh who's talking about depression and anxiety, and I asked them, Dwell, do you know your purpose? And they were like, Well, that's kind of arrogant that people have purposes. I was like, wow. So you think it's just okay to just walk around here like undefined? Like Lindsay, do you think it's okay to just walk around like undefined, not knowing who you are or what?
SPEAKER_01:Well, I think most people do that.
SPEAKER_00:Right.
SPEAKER_01:I I mean, I I would if I were to sit here and make a list of everybody in my life, most of them are unaware and don't know their purpose and they don't have boundaries and they don't know how to communicate with people. And you know, they and and and a lot of people make it all about themselves instead of having compassion for the other person and realizing right there's I mean, I I could think of so many people, right? But you need to be connected to yourself and stop worrying so much about other people, right?
SPEAKER_00:Especially like in the culture that I grew up in, is even in even in corporate culture, right? Even in corporate culture, you know, nine times out of ten, you're doing it for the for the name of the department, you're doing it for the boss, you're doing it, you know, you're not doing it for yourself, right? Um, one of the ways that you can tether to yourself is ask yourself a series of questions. Am I doing this for the version of me that's free? Am I doing this so that I don't pass on my pain to others? Am I doing this to keep me going?
SPEAKER_01:Right. Sorry, I was drinking a little while.
SPEAKER_00:No, that's fine.
SPEAKER_01:No, it's you said, what did you say? It's if you're doing it for others or if you're doing it for yourself, basically.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I'm doing this for yeah.
SPEAKER_01:You should honestly do almost everything for yourself. Right, right. That and that's and that comes before doing anything for other people. My right I never here's the thing about me. My yes means yes, and my no means no. And if it's an if it's a possible yes, then it's a no, and I change my mind later and say I could do it.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Some of the clients that I have that are the most stuck, the most stuck, are the ones that are like the most go back at me when I ask them for evidence to tell me like why they're awful people, why why they're worthless or something.
SPEAKER_01:People don't want to be stuck in that, that, that, that holding pattern of actually having to look at themselves. Right. But also people don't know why. And I I think I've said that to you before when we talk about um, you know, therapy and techniques that we use is that a lot of times people don't know why. And so if people don't know why they think that about themselves, then you're not gonna get anywhere with them. Right. Right? You have to get to the when did it begin? How did you know, how did it first occur, and then you get to the why.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. I call that the origin story. Like you have to get to the origin story, right? I I I wanna I I'm I I was gonna nerd out here and then go into the whole subplot of Batman Digital Justice. I won't. I'll I'll go I'll do it a little bit. But the way the Joker program defeats Batman, like in the in the midpoint of that, is he erases the memory, he erases Batman's memory of his parents getting killed, right? Because Batman's whole why is because Thomas and Martha Wayne were killed. You take that memory away from him, then he's no longer has that motivation or no that drive, right? You know, and and and that's why it's important to know your why, right? It's important to know why you do a thing. And sometimes that why is a big ugly thing, right? I've worked with people who have had breakthroughs because they realized that that the thing that was that was hurting them the most in life or that was keeping them stuck was this big, ugly secret that they were hanging on to. That was so boxed up in secret that they didn't even realize that how much of a secret it was, even for them, even even though they participated in these things, even though they were present when these things happened, because they didn't want to look at it. You know, even you you told recently a story where we we were listening to something, right, that started making you cry because it made you go back and look at some stuff that you didn't want to look at. Tell us about that.
SPEAKER_01:Well, I've done that a lot lately, but that was the um, I believe the episode of uh Tara Brock's talk. Right. On um the light shines through the broken places. It was about healing trauma. Yeah, it it made me it made me grieve uh like li a life or childhood that I could have had. And yeah, it made me feel very sad. And and that was what then what prompted me to go on to this journey of uh forgiveness and compassion in my meditation practice because yeah, it was it. I I told you, I and I, but you know, you and I have a set of communication skills. So I just told you this is very depressing for me. This is really hard to listen to. Because what I think what really bothered me in it too was was it um, I can't remember what the percentage was, but it was such a significant percent of the population has trauma. And I thought, like, this is so sad, and this is why the world is the way that it is, right? We're walking around in a world full of unhealed people, right?
SPEAKER_00:Right, right.
SPEAKER_01:And nobody's really ever fully healed because we're always living life and experiencing other things, but there's so many people that are really not awake and aware, and and the the way that they live is is they act out their trauma and they act out this story of who they are.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. When I was when you when I was listening to Krishna Das the other day, it made me think of this idea of of radical uh compassion and radic radical uh self-compassion. Um and he said when he when he drives and somebody cuts him off, even though he gets mad, he's like, Thank you, Dalai. He's like, imagine if you thought everybody was the Dalai Lama. That was that was somebody that was cutting you off because they were trying to show you, teach you a lesson that you needed to learn. He's like, that's one way to do to think about it. It was like, well, thank you for showing me patience today. And it was kind of funny the way he said it, but we need to treat ourselves with self-compassion. We need to treat others with compassion, and we need to treat ourselves with self-compassion. So courage isn't just even about the actual uh absence of fear, it's acting despite the fear. Uh, there's my mystery I hear your roast beeping. I'm gonna I'm gonna finish the statement and pause it because I gotta change the temperature setting on it. Um it's talk about yourself the way that you would to your most terrif terrified friend. You know, think about yourself, you know, think about yourself, have compassion for yourself. I once had somebody who was calling themselves the worst names and denigrating themselves in awful ways, and I'm this and I'm that, and I'm a coward, and I'm foolish. And I was like, I told I recounted to them the bravest thing that they ever did in their life when they were like nine or ten years old. And I was like, tell me that that little boy was all those horrible things you're saying about yourself, and tell me, and how could that man that you are today not be that same person?
SPEAKER_01:Right. Well, and what I wanted to say, and then I know we do have to start to wrap it up here, but what I wanted to say also is Tara Brock has a book called Radical Compassion that I've been reading, and it's all about that, that just that pause and you know, look at yourself and what's coming up for you. Forget about the other people, look at you.
SPEAKER_00:Right, look at you. Hold hold on just give me one minute, and I gotta there's another cat break, and I gotta pause.
SPEAKER_01:But let's work on a there's a cat here?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Uh let's No, that was the Amazon guy.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, I thought it was a cat at the window.
SPEAKER_01:No, it was the Amazon guy. I saw the lights go on outside. Oh, yeah. Your massive sensor spotlights that you had installed.
SPEAKER_00:That's right. That's right, Honda Thieves. But I'm gonna pause this for one second so I can go flip this roast and then we'll wrap it up. So just stay tuned for this commercial break. So self-acceptance and the courage to have self-acceptance is is important. I think it goes back to the serenity prayer where it's like, Lord, give me the courage to uh to change the things I can and to live with the uh and and to live with the things I can't change and help me to understand the difference between the two. Um and so I do think it takes a level of courage. It took a level of courage for me to make a lot of changes in my life, took a level of courage for you to get married to this fella. Um you know, you're you would you you were trying to flake for a while.
SPEAKER_01:I'd do it, I'd do it over again in a minute.
SPEAKER_00:Thank you. Thank you, thank you. I love you. Um, and I really do think it's important to understand, like you have to create a a foundation of courage. And and one of the things that you talk about is um, and you have always tried to get me to do it, and you and I want you to talk about this for a little bit before we wrap, is the power of breathing. Um, and somatic exercises that help you um balance and focus and and and find the power to move forward.
SPEAKER_01:Well, I mean, breathing is great, but some people with a lot of trauma can't breathe.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, so tell tell us about that.
SPEAKER_01:Well, it's just too hard for them to breathe. And um, but it it's important to find a practice for yourself. I mean, I do think meditation is for everybody. I think the problem is people don't really give it a chance. That's my that's my um my perception of that. I think it's difficult for people because there's so much discomfort in it and so much unpleasantness. But excuse me, I'm just on the tail end of another cold here. But what I think happens is that we kind of like lost my train of thought a little bit there. But you know, what was I saying? Sorry.
SPEAKER_00:I think you're on vacation already. You were talking about like breathing and you were saying okay, so maybe you need to breathe.
SPEAKER_01:Because my mind, my monkey mind is is in action here because I'm thinking about all the things that you're going on in the kitchen here. Um, but the breathing part can be hard because if people have trauma, it can be hard to really control the breath or to connect with the breath, but you just have to find something to connect to when you practice. And um, I led a really beautiful meditation um about discomfort and pain last week uh in my in my uh training, and it was very well received. And, you know, it it when things, you know, what I did first was I had people focus on an area of well, well-being and comfort and and softness and ease in themselves, and then to find that place that was a real sticking point or that was, you know, uncomfortable. And and it's important to learn to fluctuate between the two. So when things do get too overwhelming, you don't have to stay in the discomfort, you can take a little break and go to the place that's comfortable and ease, easy and nurturing, and then you can come back to it. Um, and and and I and I also brought in sounds, like you can also, you know, go to sounds in the environment around you or the the feeling of your body on the seat and you know, or your hands on on your lap or whatever it is, but you just have to find what works for you. And um, you know, I'm gonna be teaching a nice like six-week course, um, like an introduction to meditation and mindfulness. And I'm excited about that because I love it so much and it's really been transformational for me. I try to get you to do it, and I think you've sat a couple times recently a couple with me. Well, you're on your own, you know, you're on your own journey. So um it doesn't matter to me because I'm gonna sit every day. So, you know. But to your point, these tools aren't magic. Um and it's something and they're not easy. Meditating is not easy, and that's a thing with mindfulness that's so funny, right? Is it's actually learning to deal with the unpleasant. And that's why people are so averse to these practices, is because there's a lot of unpleasants when you start to look at yourself and look at your life and and do this internal search for yourself. And you know, and I do want to talk about that in another um episode. Uh, I want to talk about pleasure and things that are pleasant versus unpleasant and you know, and and the kind of you know how the you know pleasure is very temporary.
SPEAKER_00:Pleasure is pleasure is temporary, a mistake is forever. Uh that's how I think about it. Um, in closing, I want to say if you're on this path and if you're sitting with difficult truths, uh setting a boundary or grieving or simply showing up for yourself just one more day, I want you to hear this that you're healing. You're not just healing, but you're being brave.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. I think that's a great place to wrap up.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so so as we wrap up this week, we wanted to invite you to do something, do one thing, identify one tiny act of healing courage. Um, maybe it's having a difficult conversation, maybe it's resting without guilt or letting go of something that you're still holding on to guilt, or maybe it's just looking at yourself in the mirror and saying, This is hard, but I'm gonna continue to do it. Um that reminds me like Jack Canfield in his success principle says, like, you know, that is something that you should go in the mirror and do. I forgive you, I love you, I see you, you're doing you're doing a good job. He said, hey, let the people in your house know you're gonna do it first, because if they see you doing it, they might think you're crazy, but if it's something you practice, right?
SPEAKER_01:And what we do in in meditation, it's you know, may may I be, you know, filled with peace, may I be filled with love, might may I be free from, you know, external and internal suffering, things like that. Just and and sitting with it and and starting to acknowledge what are the things that make you feel like you're suffering. That is true. Right? Where does it come from? And you know, may I free myself from it? And instead of sitting here and being like, I'm so pretty, I'm this, right? May I have feelings of contentment, even if it's for five minutes. And and and it's just, you know, wishing that for yourself, but also wishing that out for the world. We do live in a world that's filled with suffering.
SPEAKER_00:Right? I def I 100% agree. And on that, I want to say thank you for having the courage to listen. And until the next time, be gentle with yourself and keep building your brave. This has been Cleveland and Lindsay. And this has been another episode of The Devil You Don't Know.
SPEAKER_01:Now you gotta go finish your roast.
SPEAKER_00:Now I gotta go finish my roast.
