The Devil You Don’t Know
In The Devil You Don’t Know, Lindsay, Cleveland, and their guests discuss personal growth and development by taking chances and getting out of your comfort zone. Topics range from whimsical to serious and everything in between but are always relevant to growth and development.
The Devil You Don’t Know
The Uncomfortable Truth: How Modern Life Keeps Us Asleep
Ever feel like life is happening on autopilot while you chase the next tiny hit of relief? We pull back the curtain on how consumer culture, constant comparison, and the productivity trap quietly sedate our attention and sell us a thinner version of happiness. Cleveland and Lindsay share candid stories—from quitting the 9-to-5 to navigating boundaries, from social media’s highlight reel to the wellness industry’s pricey promises—and map a path back to a life you can actually feel.
We break down the difference between pleasure and happiness, why perfection is the enemy of good enough, and how early scripts around being the “good” or “productive” one can hardwire exhaustion. You’ll hear an honest look at entrepreneurship, money as a tool versus a measure of worth, and the subtle ways we perform our lives instead of inhabiting them. We also examine the “happiness industrial complex,” where crystal cures and luxury retreats shift responsibility and cost onto the seeker, and offer a more grounded standard: judge helpers by their works, their accessibility, and their integrity.
Most importantly, we offer practical shifts you can start today: define non-negotiables before chasing wants, carve out a digital sabbath to reclaim attention, build friendships around aligned values, and use simple meditation to reconnect with yourself. If you’ve been feeling busy but strangely empty, this conversation is your invitation to slow down, opt out of fear-bait inputs, and choose presence over performance.
Listen, reflect, and share your first step toward a more awake life. If it resonates, subscribe, leave a review, and send this to a friend who needs a gentle nudge toward real happiness.
Please email us at Gettoknowthedevil@gmail.com
This is Cleveland.
SPEAKER_01:And this is Lindsay.
SPEAKER_04:And this is another episode of The Devil You Don't Know. Lindsay, what are we going to be talking about today?
SPEAKER_01:The uncomfortable truth. How modern life keeps us asleep.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, that's a good one. Um, I was talking to somebody the other day and asked the question um in the conversation, is I said to them, is Do you feel like sometimes we're chasing an unhappiness? Um, happiness in a system that's designed to keep us perpetually satisfied. You know, that's always something that comes up in my mind. Because, like I said, not anti-capitalist, but I feel like in a capitalist society, you know, the culture here is one that makes you always feel like you don't have enough and you're not enough because they always want you to consume.
SPEAKER_01:Right. There's like an external search for happiness. Right.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Well, it's been a while since we've been here. And what have you been up to? You've been busy.
SPEAKER_04:I've been so busy, which is why I was supposed to do another podcast actually next Saturday, uh, with a friend of mine on his podcast, and and I booked it, and Lindsay reminded me, like, Cleve, it's my birthday weekend.
SPEAKER_01:I am the keeper of the social calendar, and you're constantly making plans when I've already made them for us.
SPEAKER_04:That's right. And I should have And I've told you about them. But here's the thing is I thought I asked you if we were doing anything that weekend, and I guess I just was all uh you also tried to make separate plans on our anniversary and on my birthday, so let's just not even do that.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, that's that's that's not not a good topic over here, yeah.
SPEAKER_04:So so what are we up before we dive into the main topic? Like what are we what are we up to?
SPEAKER_01:Ready to go to Naples, Florida again, and then uh on to the British Virgin Islands just to escape the uh northeast winter a little bit. Yep. And can't wait for all of that. Um other than that, I mean we've just been we've been busy. We've been in the city, we had our anniversary, our seventh anniversary.
SPEAKER_04:Ten years together though. Almost. Not quite, not quite. I'm pretty sure.
SPEAKER_01:Do you remember the date?
SPEAKER_04:Oh, come on. I'm I'm pretty sure you have it down to the day, the second, the nanosecond, the the microsecond. I do. You know, I do.
SPEAKER_01:Remember you showed up late. Oh, yeah. To our first date, and I told you you were gonna be late, and you insisted you wouldn't, but you were.
SPEAKER_04:It was like a month, it was like a month from now today. It was like a January show with uh Hauka, right? With the acoustic gold.
SPEAKER_01:Yes. And then remember the um I was telling Donna and Dom, we went out last night too, that great speakeasy, and I was telling Donna and Dom um about our first date and how we were at the Rockwood Music Hall in Manhattan, right? And the really drunk gentleman tripped and his drink went flying and landed upside down in my purse. You had a purse full of wine. I think that's a good up and just dumped it out.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. I think that would have been a good invention, though. A purse full of wine.
SPEAKER_01:Why I was saying I told Donna and Dom about that, that Donna said in Italy, uh spilled drink is very good luck. Oh. And so she said that's why. Uh and then this morning she texted me and said, You guys are so funny. And I said, That's my soulmate. Oh, that's my soulmate.
SPEAKER_04:Thank you. Like you are also mine.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, my but you're my best friend. And we have a lot of laughs. And uh, you know, the Queen Mom came home for the holiday break and uh immediately started with her little bit of sass, sassy attitude over here. And I had to just stop her and say, We don't really actually do that because it's only the two of us now, so we don't really have that kind of arguing and loud noise going on in the house at all, and she stomped upstairs.
SPEAKER_04:And it's like, yeah, we don't do that anymore. It's like teenagers. Like, wow, we don't we don't do that anymore. Um, just interesting. So you had intimated a little bit about what what I've been up to and why I've been so busy.
SPEAKER_01:It's like um, very busy and it's been really great.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, uh uh as some of you know uh who listen to the show, I did write a book. It's called Waiting for White Jesus. It is published by uh Cleveland Oaks Press. And um it is available on Amazon and and and and and uh and I was gonna say other outlets, but it's actually just available on Amazon.
SPEAKER_01:So it's available on Amazon.
SPEAKER_04:It's available on Amazon, which is good enough for me. Um about the last couple of weeks I've been invited to some book clubs. Uh I was I've been had some public speaking engagements behind it uh as a result of it. Uh spoke at the Hope at the Hope programs, recently spoke at Boys and Girls High School in Brooklyn with the uh parent leadership committee there, amongst other folks, and just been really busy uh talking about that book, talking about that work, which is an important work to me, which asks the question why are you begging other people to do things for you when you have the power to do these things for yourself?
SPEAKER_01:That's right.
SPEAKER_04:Right, and so so that's what I've been uh up and and and about. Um, other than that, you know, just a lot of work, always working. Um it's good to have financial freedom. You know, I I I yeah, and talking about changing the status quo, and before we just get into this main topic, um one of the things I'll always be thankful for you for is like you were the person that encouraged me to quit my nine to five. And um, I couldn't imagine, even though I've been doing putting in like long and arduous hours now, it's long and arduous hours in my house.
SPEAKER_01:Um you're making more money with more flexibility, isn't it? Lovely.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, and I could spend like like you absolutely said, I could do this job from anywhere in the world. So even if we wanted to go to Florida, I could be in Florida take doing the job that I do right now and making, uh, as I told uh Phil the other day, an infinite money cheat uh because I can just as as much as I can bill for is as much as I as I as I make. Um money is not everything, and we're definitely gonna get into that. Uh, but as my dearly departed friend um that I used to work with at the PBA, her husband used to say, is uh money can't buy me happiness, but it can get me in the yacht that'll sail me up to the island in which I'll find it. Um and with that being said, we'll get into this very, very, very important topic. I think, Lindsay, the what when you what what what you came up with this is you were listening to, I think it was Krishna Das. Um, and I don't know if you have the exact quote of what he said, but it was something akin to like Western culture. Can you f yeah?
SPEAKER_01:So um I'm gonna drop an F bomb here, but Western culture is dedicated to fucking us up. It keeps us asleep, unfulfilled, and unhappy. Tell me about that and your thoughts on that. Well, we are constantly on the search for things to bring us pleasure, right? And there's a difference between pleasure and happiness, right? Pleasure, pleasure is very short-lived. And it's that we are constantly seeking things outside of ourselves for contentment and satisfaction. And we think, as a culture, that that's actually what makes us happy. Right. But at the end of the day, it doesn't. And so we are fucked up, unfulfilled, unhappy, and asleep in our lives. And being asleep in your life, I equate with being unaware. We're walking through and we're going through the motions, but we're not present in anything.
unknown:Right, right.
SPEAKER_04:Part of my book, and I'm not going to talk about my book much, but part of my book is in the the the audience that I spoke to this past Saturday. Um, you know, part of it is taking agency and being in control of your own happiness and understanding what is and what is not important to you and what should be and should not be important to you. Unfortunately, like Krishna Das said, um we have a lot of privileges in this country, a hundred percent. Um, I talked to somebody recently who said that as a little girl, they were upset at the level of progress that the country had as she was learning history and like civil rights and suffrage. She was like, it's gonna be nothing left for me to do. Um, and so yes, we are at a privilege point in in history, yet at the same time, we are at like a very anxious point in our history. And I would like to say that I think it's it's distraction by design, right? That that engagement is like an emotional engagement, even if it's an unhealthy emotional engagement, is an engagement that makes someone money.
SPEAKER_01:Absolutely. I think about clients that I see that are so unhappy at their jobs, but they don't look for anything else. Or, right, a client that I've worked with for a long time who lost a job and is now struggling because doesn't want to go back to work though in the capacity that she was working before and also got to spend a year raising her child. And so now I think the honestly think the reason she hasn't found a job is because she's not so motivated to find a job because she knows that she's not happy doing those things. And, you know, and that's a a problem in our society, I think, in general, right? And we've talked about that before, you and I amongst ourselves, but that gender roles especially have made it so that women have to be in the workforce. And women can be in the workforce if they want to be, but I for one really enjoyed having a time at home raising my children when they were little.
SPEAKER_02:Right.
SPEAKER_01:And I now, as an adult uh with adult children, I really enjoyed having the flexibility of working for myself because it allowed me to be there for them in the teenage years and to know where they were and what they were doing, which, you know, they probably didn't enjoy so much. But I was able to be around to see what was going on and to be there for them. And you know, I've created this life for myself. And I think there's a difference between that and you know, you used the example before of you working in your nine to five. And think about that. Do you need to let the cat in?
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, so I'm gonna let me just pause it. She's knocking, yeah. She's knocking like prolifically. So I'm gonna just pause it really quickly, guys, that we're gonna take a cat break. So just hold on. And we are back after a cat nap.
SPEAKER_01:I would just say that we have one of the smartest cats on the planet, Ginger. She leaves by coming to tap us on the leg, and then she sits and waits patiently for us to go to the door. She comes home and knocks on the window, and now she's doing this thing where she stands and waits, and she would like someone to go upstairs and watch her eat. Yeah, which is strange. And it's like sometimes you'll think, oh, maybe there's no food, but then you get up there and she just wanted company. She wanted to sit down for a meal with you.
SPEAKER_04:I thought it would be nice if we sat for a full meal together. And she looks and she peeks under the curtain when she knows.
SPEAKER_01:You're sitting here and you don't let her in fast enough.
SPEAKER_04:What's up, man? She's like, What's going on? I pay rent around here.
SPEAKER_01:She scoops like she squats down or you know, and gets really low and then peeks her eyes between that tiny crack between the blinds and the window.
SPEAKER_04:It's like I know something's going on. But but before that break, you were you were talking about the the the modern structure of how both families, both parents and a family have to go to work, right? That mom and dad or or both or both caretakers have to go to work. And it's really created like this different this different dynamic.
SPEAKER_01:Right. And we've built this world where we are told that you know progress and success are the most important things. And so we're constantly seeking other things outside of ourselves.
SPEAKER_04:And part of that, I I just want to uh do a quick uh segue and and tie it into this. Is did you know that the average American is exposed to 400 to 1,000 ads per day? Um Wow. And that's crazy, right? You know, that's why I think the you know there's a lot of popularity in streaming services, because imagine, you know, that's just that's probably just it on your phone now, um, in the media that you're, you know, you're consuming ad after ad after ad, and it's a it's a bombardment. And I think it goes back to uh what Krishna Dash was talking about is consumerism, you know, makes us thrive on a lack of things and not on self-worth, right? Right. It's so funny. I remember a couple of weeks ago we were out with your grandma, and she was and you've been living like a life of like kind of like austerity, you know, for a little bit, and you're of uh mindfulness. And I see you smiling because you know what I'm getting ready to talk about, right? Go ahead. Where it's like, well, Lindsay, you really watch what you eat, and you're vegan now, and and you, you know, you really have a good clean diet, but don't you just miss a filet mignon? No.
SPEAKER_00:How about veal? Don't you miss veal? A nice veal cutlet. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Oh, Lord. And and it's it's the one thing of things like, oh, look at you, you're weird because you don't want to partake in a thing that we all know is is mostly unhealthy for us.
SPEAKER_01:Right. Well, and I just want to make a a segue for a moment because this is something that I was saying to you the other day. Um, in that I think it was that same podcast episode that we were listening to. It was that uh there was a comparison between uh families in the Western world and the families in the in the eastern world in India. And I believe that they said, I think that that what the uh woman said was, what were your parents doing when they made you? Right? Like what were their emotions? What were they doing? And and you know, and and so and Krishna Das had said in that podcast episode we were listening to that you know his parents were like meat eating. And and it's you know, and I and I don't like to impose my views on anyone, but it it is very harmful, right? And so when you are eating another living being, you are actually doing harm to that living being. Right. And you're you you know, we don't need to eat animals, and you know I feel very strongly about that. Uh, but yes, but and and it's so funny to me because my family, everybody in my family is always so worried about what I'm gonna eat.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, it's crazy, right? And I'm not worried about what they're eating, and but it goes back into that architecture of dissatisfaction, right? If you're satisfied with your choices, even if I don't agree with them, right?
SPEAKER_02:Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_04:Why are you worried about why you want me to be in your cult? Why do you want me to be in your gang, right? Go ahead. Speak to me.
SPEAKER_01:Yes, no, I agree. It's I always say that that if if you are okay with the choice that you have made, it really doesn't matter if anyone else agrees with that choice or not. You are the only person who has to be okay with your behavior, with your choices, with your actions, with your thoughts, with your words. You have to be okay with them. And I would probably say that 99.9% of the time, I am totally okay with what comes out of my mouth, even if people don't like to hear it.
SPEAKER_04:Oh, that's fine. That's that's absolutely fine. I think it's absolutely fine. I wanna I wanna talk about something real quick, is the is what you were just saying is the comparison trap, right? Because that's a that's an idea that, you know, like either like why are these people not doing what I am doing, or or the reverse of that, is the comparison trap is making you see these images, especially on social media. Uh like why is my life like not like that, right? So if you follow up with Lindsay and I on social media, you do see we travel a lot, right? And you see our good moments, right? And what my oldest son would likes to say is social media is a highlight reel because you do not see those moments of struggle, and we do have moments of struggle, but why post that on ETF?
SPEAKER_01:We do, but we're also open about them, right? Right. I think a lot of people act as though there is no struggle. I mean, we've had listen, we've raised seven kids. That's been struggle. That's been a lot of struggle, a lot of struggle, parenting struggles. We don't always see eye to eye on that. Um, you know, everything. And you know, and we do, we do argue from time to time, and we do like very different things, and we do believe in different things, but at the end of the day, right, I try to come at things from a place of compassion and understanding. Right.
SPEAKER_04:But I don't think the social media I don't think social media is a is a place that that allows for compassion and understanding or argue or uh or or even intelligent discussion. And I think it does lead to this huge level of dissatisfaction. You know, I don't have the this the the the factoid in front of me, but it is you can go google it, it is a known fact that the more people post on social media, especially selfies, that the more depressed they are, right? And and and I think that the social I think part of this great unrest is people look at at it when we were growing up, it was to cable news for answers or or for solutions, and now people are looking to anyone on social media who they think might be a voice, right? And I'm not even I'm not even gonna lump our ourselves in that because I really try to keep a very low social media presence, but it is I think that there's a fire hose of just like madness and nonsense out there that social media.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, absolutely. I agree with you a hundred percent. Well, because people only put their best parts out there, right? And most people that have a significant following on social media are also making money off of their social media, right? And that's what we don't think about either, is these people have to keep up a specific front because that's that's that's what you know puts food on their table and money in their bank account.
SPEAKER_04:And yeah, we miss a couple episodes, we good. We we gotta stop missing a couple episodes because we we need to get better. But no.
SPEAKER_01:Oh Lord, it has been very busy though. Yeah, it has been very busy.
SPEAKER_04:But I wanna I want to move on to something that I know that you probably uh think of of me on this is the productivity trap. And and what is that?
SPEAKER_01:Well, that's yeah. When your self-worth is tied to your output, right? I don't I'm gonna I'm not gonna say no, I'm gonna do more and more and more and more and more. I'm gonna be recognized, and then I'm gonna be exhausted and miserable, but everybody else is gonna be happy with what they got from me.
SPEAKER_04:I I am gonna say that when I was, I am, as many of my uh mentors uh will admit, I am a recovering people pleaser. Which means at time you you seem to have you seem to disagree with that. Go ahead. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Speak speak to that. You seem to when I said I'm a recovering. What what have I done this week that was people pleasing?
SPEAKER_01:I don't think you're just you know, I don't think you're recovered.
SPEAKER_04:Uh well, that's why I said I'm recovering. So, so but what what what that has happened in the last week that's that's that's it doesn't really have to be the past week. Oh we we we keep in count.
SPEAKER_01:Um no, I'm just saying that, you know, I I think uh the difference between you and I is that I have really very good strong boundaries. Right. And I adhere to those boundaries a hundred percent of the time. I do not cave, I don't waver, and I think that you know, I sometimes think that you don't have as strong of boundaries as I do.
SPEAKER_04:Well, it depends. It it it it it it depends on what it is, it depends on, and everybody's entitled to be a a little different. But what I was gonna say about like the idea of the productivity trap is I am uh a still in progress. Let's let's let's negotiate on that. A still in progress, people pleaser, who is who is trying very hard to to minimize some of those damaging uh habits. But I would say there was a uh a part of my life that I'm still recovering from that everything had to be an A. And my own therapist, and you've even asked me uh about that, is like, why does everything have to be an A? And I've actually had to struggle with certain clients on that. Whereas I I was like, as as my professor in in grad school used to say, Is perfection is the enemy of good enough. Like it doesn't have to be perfect if you can just do good enough. And productivity for the sake of being productive so that other people can be happy with you is is part of that dissatisfaction.
SPEAKER_01:What do you make it mean about yourself if you're not the most productive person? Right? I think that's you know, I I think actually, and I'll and I'll say this, and this is something that you and I talk about all the time, is I don't I don't think that you work smart. I think you work hard. Right. And I think you should work smart, not hard. I work smart, not hard. Um you know, and but I think also that you are, you know, I've been in a working for myself profession for a really long time, and it's still fresh and new to you. Right. And so I think that and I'm and I do think that you've, you know, you do get out of your comfort zone a lot. And and that's something that when we first met, it was a struggle for you to be out of your comfort zone. And now I think I think you're kind of like, Lindsay just flies by the seat of her pants and whatever. Yeah. Right. I just have to go along with it. And and and so far it's worked for you, right? I mean, we're gonna spend like almost another month. I, you know, I booked a longer trip this year to the BVI than last year.
SPEAKER_04:Oh, you booked it already. I didn't even know. I thought we I thought we were talking. I thought we were I thought we were gonna have a conversation uh before things got booked, but I guess give you a little little something to drink tonight, and then you'll be fine. And then I'll be fine. And then I'll be fine. But no, to to your point, there was a point in my life that I would say that my productivity was tied to my self-worth. Right now, I'm at a point in my life where yes, you know, I am I'm I am like new to this entrepreneurial life, and I am learning uh to try to put bounds on myself and and try to, you know, balance myself as I'm as I'm uh as I'm you know managing like various streams of of income um that are coming in. But there was a part of my life that it was very much tied to that I have to please somebody or is if I'm gonna do my if I'm gonna do my slave voice with a lot of what a lot of people struggle from in my generation, is I gotta please Massa. And and I and I did and I did suffer from that from a long time until I got to a point in my life, it's like, who am I trying to please? And why am I trying to please these other people? Am I trying to please them because I want them to be like, wow, look at how great and smart the black guy is, right? You know, am I trying to please people for as as Grandma Jean and and and and the Jehovah's Witnesses used to say for Jehovah? There was like so many things in my life that I was being productive for for the sake of being the good boy, of being the smart boy, of being the bright one, of being the chosen one, of being the funny one.
SPEAKER_01:Well, but that also comes from childhood trauma, right? Which we don't have to get into right now, but there was probably a time in your life where you didn't feel that way, right? I know I can tell you, um, you know, with most of my trauma, what my trauma responses are, and you know, working hard and being successful is one of them because I was always the fly by the seat of my pants, kid. And my parents were always like feeling let down or disappointed by the things that I did, right? I didn't go on in college to study what they wanted. I got a divorce, I did all these things, but I happened to be the most successful of my siblings. And but it's because I didn't let what other people wanted for me be what I wanted for myself. And I allowed myself to go out on that limb and take the chance and take the risk. And there's always going to be a risk of failure, and we can, you know, talk more about that at another time. But the only time that you fail is when you don't actually try.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:So you know, you do have to fail to find success. But, you know, you you you fail more when you stay stuck.
unknown:Right.
SPEAKER_04:But we've we've worked with a lot of people who do honestly tie their productivity to their self-worth. And unfortunately, it's most people, right?
SPEAKER_01:Or they wouldn't come to therapy.
SPEAKER_04:Right. Because in this Western culture, I I I guarantee you stay in relationships that are horrible.
SPEAKER_01:Yep. They hate their jobs, then, you know, and it's all of these things. The family, you know, people have a hard time with. We talked about this when Wendy was on. People have a really hard time pulling away from family. And, you know, and it's like it, it's it's hard for people to set boundaries.
unknown:Right.
SPEAKER_04:Especially in a culture that wants you to consume, consume, consume, consume. We're in a culture that's like, well, don't you misfailet mignon over trying to, you know, connect with yourself spiritually. You know? So it's it's this is what what we do with.
SPEAKER_01:I don't miss it. If I missed it, I probably would eat it.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:I don't miss it. I I mean, I actually happen to be a fantastic cook. So, and you know, I'm tooting my own horn here, but I your horn may be too. I cook a lot of really great things. And you know, you like came into my life eating meat and not knowing, you know, how to be, you know, healthier and to eat healthier. And now one of your favorite foods is what?
SPEAKER_04:Tofu.
SPEAKER_01:Right.
SPEAKER_04:Tofu. So I could eat tofu all day. I was eating tofu tacos this this this this afternoon this afternoon. But like I said, but you're not caught up in that. That is uh the listen, even now, you know, tonight I'm gonna have to get back and do a little bit of notes. Um, but you are much better at at not being in that productivity trap that than I am, and I am it am trying to work through it. I will tell you, it's like right now, it's just because I like, I don't tie my productivity to my self-worth. I'm trying to think, maybe I do. I I I would have to come back, I would have to put a pen in that and and and think on it. I I I'll tell you that I feel better now. Um I would tell you, even though this is the hardest I've worked in the last couple of months, this is also the most secure that I've felt in the last couple of months. So maybe part of my productivity is maybe part of my self-worth is tied to my productivity, as it is to so many people in this capitalist culture. But at the same time, I think I'm trying to work on an awareness of that and and take a step back.
SPEAKER_01:Right. And and we both have an end goal, right, for our future. And I I think that right now this is a stepping stone to get there. Right. And and that's really where you know your energy needs to be focused right now in the moment. But it's just, you know, I think that the acknowledgement is it's the right now, it's not forever.
unknown:Right, right.
SPEAKER_04:A hundred percent. Um, moving on to to the to the next topic, which is the happiness industrial complex. That's something that you had that you had written down, which is it's self-help, a self-blame. I I I I think, you know, part of maybe what this topic is is there seems to be uh a lot of folks, like I said, we listen, there are people you do have to make a living in this business, right? Yeah. As as as as psychotherapists. And so we do we have bills to pay and mortgage to pay and and whatnot. But I do think there is a uh a segment of the culture that's out there, um, that is especially on the on the influencer vibe, is actually like doing like more harm than good, right? Like people that are going to like, and I'm not gonna say life coaches are bad, but people going to like the celebrity life coaches and and things like that, and not really, you know, getting like good and solid information on what brings true happiness.
SPEAKER_01:Well, most people that you look at that are influencers, or at least the ones I watch, because I do follow a few people. They're I think all plant-based folks, um, you know, because that aligns with my lifestyle. But what I notice is that they all go through these periods of time where they aren't happy. And they talk about that very openly. They, you know, you have to be when you're in the spotlight like that, you have to be creative and on your game a hundred percent of the time.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And it, you know, it it's some people say that it's they feel like they run out of ideas, they need to take a break. Um, other ones say their kids don't want to be in the spotlight, their kids get older, they don't want to be because it impacts your life. You know, when you're an influencer and millions of people know who you are, your kids don't get to have their life be normal either for them. And it's not, it's not fair to do that to the other people in our lives.
SPEAKER_04:When when um in the Bible, I know I'm gonna uh I'm gonna misquote it a little bit, but I, you know, um I think the disciples once uh asked Jesus Christ, how would they know who is it were his followers? And he was said, You will know them by their works, right? And that they won't be live in a way that's contrary uh to their works. I think Krishna Das uh was talking about it on the last uh on his last episode. Uh the episode that you uh uh show shared with me that I do want to go back and listen to, which was was like um only Jesus had a good death, or and he was talking about these g teachers and influencers uh that really are just out there to to to heal and and teach the word and just love. I I I I love this point. He was like, Jesus wasn't a Christian, right? Jesus, Jesus, Jesus wasn't a Christian. He didn't he didn't say he was Catholic or Protestant or Jehovah's Witness or whatever. He was Jesus, right? And and and part of I think what go what you have to look at at some of these people that you come into on online, and this is what I want to ask you, is like I said, there's a difference between making a living and is it and then you're you're selling a hundred dollar crystals.
SPEAKER_02:Mm-hmm.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Six thousand dollar retreats.
SPEAKER_02:Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_04:Mine is gonna be five thousand nine hundred and ninety-nine. Uh but six thousand dollar retreats. And I think you will know who people are, right? You know, even in this mental health world, by by the works that they put out. What do you think about that, Lindsey?
SPEAKER_01:I I agree. And I do, I do agree with what you say too. It's you know, it becomes right, my breath work teacher, and I haven't uh worked with her in a little while now, but I did hear through the grapevine that she is just charging a huge amount of money now. And that turns me off. Because I do think it, you know, the work needs to be accessible to people. Right. And you know, and I and I'm and and do yes, you're right, people do need to make a living, but it also just needs to be accessible.
SPEAKER_04:Right, right. I I I think there's a a uh a difference of of of making like uh or charging a reasonable rate. It's like when Chris said to tell Adam uh down in Florida, he was like, Hey, do you know how to pull a wire? No. So if I tell tell your son if his clients, if he says it's$600 to pull a wire, it's$600 to pull a wire. There is a certain amount of of acumen, of of credentials that you need to have. And obviously, this work can't just be done by anybody, right? Like you wouldn't have to pass a licensure exam, you wouldn't have to go to to grad school, you wouldn't have to do 3,000 uh hours of um of of of clinical of clinical work before you can get licensed. Um you wouldn't have to do CEUs, right? Right. And so you know, there's a level, there's a quality to my work that yes, I am entitled to charge a certain amount of money, right? However, I'm not gonna I I think there's a difference between, you know, charging$600 because that's how much it costs to do the job and for you to make money, to charging to gouging. And I I can give an example of of something that's happened to us in in our lives. Uh, we we when we f pitched to get this house done, we had somebody come over and quote us a hundred and fifty thousand dollars.
SPEAKER_01:Yes, a hundred and fifty thousand dollars just for the the construction.
SPEAKER_04:Right. And then we had somebody else who was an honorable, good, decent guy who gave us a quote before COVID um of of a much s lower price. Much much lower, like three times less. At least. At least three times less, and said uh and put a not to exceed clause in that contract. That person was doing it for the love, right? You know, you this kept their word. Kept their word. And that's the kind of person that you want to look for in like a in the in the mental health field, right? Like you want to make sure that it's somebody who is reputable, that they're honest, that it's not a fly-by-night person, it's not, you know, somebody who's looking to enrich themselves, but somebody who's looking to make a living, but also help you continue living. Uh, I want to move on from that to to our final to our final piece, uh, which is like solutions and and alternative ways of being, which I really want to get down into that uh with you. So what are uh Miss Lindsay some alternative ways of being uh that our audience can can engage in some solutions they can put into their own life?
SPEAKER_01:Well, I think one of the most important things is to kind of assess where you are and to see like where do you not feel happy or fulfilled? Right. Right? Where are you kind of putting up this illusion of of happiness and contentment? And and then looking, I always tell my clients, don't worry so much about what you do want. What if you think about the things you don't want when you're looking for that job or when you're in a relationship? What are those absolute non-negotiables for you? And that's a really good way to, you know, narrow things down and to figure out like, what is my path and how can I get on that path? What are the things that I absolutely won't settle for? You know, my answer is always gonna be to meditate because I love to meditate. Um, but it's to find a way to connect with yourself, to sit with yourself, to see what comes up. Um, you know, I think very excited to say that I believe I'll be, you know, being able to share meditation teachings soon in our community as part of my training. But it's just sitting with yourself. It's not always going to be comfortable. You're not going to find the answers. Your mind is gonna get in the way and tell you all the reasons that you should just take the crappy job or stay in the relationship. And most people are gonna listen to that.
SPEAKER_04:I I did for a long time.
SPEAKER_01:But maybe, maybe just say, Oh, I think there could be another option for me. Right. And that's another thing that you need to start to do is to kind of look at your own life and you know, and and go from there. And things don't change overnight. That is true. Things aren't fast. You have to realize that it takes time to implement things.
SPEAKER_04:That is true. That is true. I think uh uh another thing that I um think that is an alternate way of being is just cut your screen time.
SPEAKER_01:Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_04:You know, take a digital Sabbath, you know, don't turn on the TV, don't go on your phone. I know it's a there was an episode of Abbott Elementary uh where the did you see it where the the staff and it's really good, you know, in New York it is now uh the the rule that you must um that you must uh you know put the kids have to put the phones away. Um the kids have to put the phones away. So that's like a new thing that's that's just happened. But there was that episode of Abbott where the school came up with the rule that that the teachers couldn't have their phones, that no one could have their phones. And remember the teachers going, oh, what am I gonna do? What am I gonna do? But I think it's good to take a digital Sabbath, which is, you know, sometimes we come home and sometimes we watch TV. Uh this TV barely goes on, you know, except if we're watching a couple of shows. Oh, there's plenty of times where we just sit here in the dark.
SPEAKER_01:Yep. Well, I think that's the other thing is that we like each other. Right. We communicate with each other, we talk about things, and that is something that other people do not do. I don't understand that at all. And I see this with clients all the time, and I tell them, you have to sit down with your husband, or you have to sit down with your wife, and you have to have these difficult conversations. You're sitting here and talking to me, but like that is the person that knows the most intimate parts of you.
SPEAKER_00:That is correct.
SPEAKER_01:Sit down with them, tell them how you feel and say to them, I really want to talk to you about this. This is what's on my mind. I feel anxious, even just saying it out loud. But I just want, you know, I want to pick your brain. I want a little bit of support here. We don't do that. I do that with you, right? When I do work on myself and you ask me how I'm doing, what do I say to you sometimes? I'm not good. Right? I'm not good sometimes. Can I have a hug? Or I just want to sit here and I just I don't need you to, you know, try to talk me off a ledge or to tell me everything is gonna be all right, because everything is always all right. But I just want, I just want sometimes, you know, I want people to just be able to communicate with each other.
SPEAKER_04:And I'm gonna go back. And sometimes things aren't all right, and you just gotta live and you just gotta live with it.
SPEAKER_01:But I really believe that everything is all right because I feel that all of those things are a part of the path, right? All of those things are a part of what makes me who I am. And if I don't go through those things, then I'm not really doing the work and I'm not present.
SPEAKER_04:That is true. What would you give? What advice would you give to our single people out there who might not have um somebody immediately to lean upon?
SPEAKER_01:Right? Find friends. You need to have those go-to people who are going to be there for you, that are gonna hear you, that are going to sit and listen.
unknown:Right.
SPEAKER_04:I told um one of my clients who who's lamenting about uh well, several of them have lamented about being able to make friends as adults. And why don't you and I it's so crazy, Lynn? We travel a lot. How many people we're not like even our friends who we went out to dinner with last night, we're a little we're a little introverted compared to them because they make friends wherever they go, everywhere. But you know, I I talked to all these people that were like, oh, I don't know how to make friends and I can't make friends as an adult. You know, the that time that you're spending on socials or you might be watching, and I love some Apple TV and some Netflix. Um, good on for you, Netflix but try trying to buy Warner Brothers. It looks like Paramount might sneak in there and get it. But you could you could literally go outside and make a new friend.
SPEAKER_01:But do you think this is a question I have for you do you think that people struggle to make friends as an adult because they don't really know who they are? I think so. They are not able to connect with people that align with themselves, and they're just looking again externally for, oh, I need a friend, I need a friend, I need a friend, but not looking for, right? Like my friend Elizabeth, for example, that I went to Krishna Das with a few weeks ago, right? She's a very spiritual person. She meditates every day, right? We're connected, the two of us, and we get along really well. And we could not see each other for six months or a year and pick up right where we left off because we're completely aligned in our beliefs and in our practices.
SPEAKER_04:Oh, I I I I I I agree with you, and I co-sign on what you just said 100%. I think uh for people, especially folks that I've worked with in the past that struggle with keeping friends and having friends, and we we have somebody in our in our in our life right now who struggles very hard uh keeping friends, is is like, first of all, I don't think you need a a a thousand friends, right?
SPEAKER_01:Well, you also don't need to try to have to prove a point with everybody, and you don't and so you don't have to always have to be right.
SPEAKER_04:Yep. Secondly, you don't always have to be right, and a friend is just somebody who's literally that a friend, somebody you could talk to, bug out with, have a good time, uh, you know, maybe have a debate, you know, with or or whatever. Um but you're not gonna meet those people if you're on if you are like on the phone all the time. If you're on the phone in real life, if you're on the phone in the house, if you're you know, you're just not gonna meet them. I work with a young man who is like, you know, man, I get real envious of these guys that have the Riz. And you know, me and my boys were like trying to figure out like why he had the Riz and we don't, and for those of you who don't know, the Riz is charisma. And I was like, well, what what did you guys decide was the secret of it? And they were like, because he goes outside. Linz, what did that mean to you? Because he goes outside.
SPEAKER_01:He's not on all the socials. Yeah, he's actually going He's actually doing something.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, he's going outside. And it reminds me, like, this idea of always being behind the screen or always being behind something is is I swear. When we went to Nashville and we had a great time in Nashville, you know, it's one of the places that we have to definitely get back to when we were staying at the Virgin Hotel. Uh I am uh Mr. Branson, if you are listening. Um I'm a little busy these days, but maybe I still're sorry for the loss of your wife. And yes, we are sorry for the loss of your wife. Um I'm a little busy these days, so um that Necker Allen job might be off the table.
SPEAKER_01:But we were in the Well, you work remotely now, so it's fine. We can just go down to the Caribbean and live.
SPEAKER_04:Okay, we can do that. But we were at uh the w his hotel, uh, which is why I went uh what was it what's the name? The Virgin Atlantic Hotel in in in downtown Nashville. The Virgin the Virgin Hotel in downtown Nashville, which is a wonderful, wonderful city, wonderful time. And remember that group of girls that comes in that was at the pool but weren't at the pool. Right. And why why did I why am I saying that?
SPEAKER_01:Because they were well, they they were at the pool with their hair, their makeup done, the you know, most fancy of swimsuits and cover-ups, taking all these pictures with the Nashville skyline in the background. It was just all about the social media for them and the taking the pictures and posting and recording. And then they couldn't even get into the pool because you know it would ruin the hair and ruin the makeup. And you know, they could heaven forbid that they get that, you know, eight thousand dollar swimsuit and cover-up.
SPEAKER_04:But that's not experience in life. Right? And it goes back to this as we close. I think that experience goes back to what we're the whole message of what we're talking about is is is is being caught up in in the pursuit of uh of of being caught up in the pursuit of living, but not actually living, right? Is is is how I want to say it, right? But here it is, is like, man, me and you, and we and I can't remember the young man that we met that was the you remember him, the the the young while handsome white kid. Um Where was this? It's at in the pool. I don't think you don't remember like that real funny, funny young guy that was talking to us and he he bought us some drinks. Uh, you know, and he was talking about like how he likes to travel and whatnot. But it's like, and he doesn't do social media or none of that other stuff because it takes away from life. I I yeah, I you if you if you picture him you in your mind, you'll you'll know who I'm talking about. Um he had come in town for I think he was in town, because everybody was in town for the for the Zach Brown concert.
SPEAKER_01:Yes, I know who I know who you're talking about, yeah.
SPEAKER_04:For the Zach Brown concert. Um But it was like even he was looking at those girls and was like, oh yeah, what are they doing? It's like they're not talking to each other. You're at this beautiful, you're at this beautiful rooftop with this beautiful bar with a lot of beautiful people and people having, you know, people having genuine human connection and human conversation, and like you're choosing to live behind the screen. Um and I think it's really important for you know us, you know, as my closing thought on this, and I'll let you get the last thought on it, Lindsay, is the case it is it's really important to stay away from things that you know upset us, right? There's i I I don't even tell you about any story that pops up on my phone anymore because you immediately will tell me what I don't want to hear anything that gives me anxiety. That gives me anxiety. And so you don't have to read, you don't have to listen to, you don't have to know anything that gives you anxiety.
SPEAKER_01:I I'm okay with being a little bit oblivious.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, but it doesn't bother me. That's what I'm saying. I it's okay to be a little bit oblivious on on some of this stuff. There's stories that I've seen on the news where I'm like, yeah, I never needed to know that. I never needed to know that.
SPEAKER_01:Well, and also it's just a distraction from what you actually need to do on yourself. It's just another way to look outside. And and and it's fear-mongering too when you look at the media in that way. But I mean, I personally I mean, I you know how I am. I could sit and meditate. If you bought me, you know, 50 acres upstate, I wouldn't even look for a neighbor. I would just sit and meditate and bake my sourdough and be very happy.
SPEAKER_04:Be very, very happy. Well, that's really it. That's all I have on this one.
SPEAKER_01:That's it for me.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, but it's good to be back. We're gonna try to well, we got a couple more episodes we we're gonna try to knock out this month. Um, it's good to be back. We would definitely, my new year's resolution is to try to be a little more uh consistent uh with our recording schedule and staying on on top of the schedule. So, you know, it's something that sounds like a broken record, but we will get there. Uh, I think we had uh a good three, we had a good three weeks. Uh in November, we published a lot, so we'll we'll we'll get back on track. And then Lynn's do you have anything? No, I think that's it. Okay. If you are interested in getting it to know more about Lindsay or myself, you can find us at our website at www.embracewithincounseling.com. Is it? Yeah, embrace within. Yeah, it is embrace within counseling.
SPEAKER_01:It's www.
SPEAKER_04:And then embrace is spelt with an E, not an I. Yeah, so that is embracing. Well, I'm from Brook. I'm from Brooklyn. I'm pretty sure there's some little kids out there named Embrace. And it's probably I I won't be comment. Anyway, race. Oh, wait, wait. On that topic, and then I'm gonna go. Somebody was talking, they said they they they met a kid. I was talking to a colleague and they said they met a kid named Dream. You wanna know how Dream was spelled?
SPEAKER_01:I know how it was spelled because I have evaluated a kid, and when I go to the daycare, they're like, Oh, are you here for Dream with a J? I know exactly what you're gonna say. J-R-E-A-M.
SPEAKER_04:Wow. I was just like, wow, I I guess it is pronounced that way. I guess it is. Well, but that being said, this has been another episode of The Devil You Don't Know that's been clean. And this has been the Devil You Double.
