The Devil You Don’t Know
In The Devil You Don’t Know, Lindsay, Cleveland, and their guests discuss personal growth and development by taking chances and getting out of your comfort zone. Topics range from whimsical to serious and everything in between but are always relevant to growth and development.
The Devil You Don’t Know
We Can All Do Better, Starting Today
When the world rewards outrage, choosing kindness feels like swimming upstream. We open the door to a different path—one built on safety, presence, and small, deliberate actions that ripple through relationships at home, at work, and online. Drawing on Arthur C. Brooks’s research on contempt, Terence Real’s three spheres of change, and Tara Brach’s insights on trauma and mindfulness, we unpack why so many of us feel stuck in anger and how to find our way back to connection.
The conversation moves from daily life—traffic flare-ups, partner miscommunications, and those endless comment wars—to practical tools that actually help. We practice listening to understand rather than to win; we define a realistic sphere of influence so we stop doomscrolling and start doing; and we adopt both-and thinking to navigate complexity without going brittle or cynical. You’ll hear personal stories of repair, boundaries with media algorithms that profit from your rage, and the tiny, repeatable gestures that rebuild respect: a rinsed dish, a calm breath, a gentle check-in.
This is not about pretending everything is fine. It’s about resourcing yourself so you can show up better today than yesterday. Five to ten minutes of stillness, empathy before advice, and forgiveness as a release rather than reunion—these become the muscle fibers of a kinder life. If you’re ready to trade hot takes for wise action, and contempt for warmth, this one will meet you where you are and invite you a step forward.
If this resonates, follow and subscribe, share it with someone who could use a calmer day, and leave a review with one practice you’ll try this week. Your small actions might be the permission someone else needs to start.
Please email us at Gettoknowthedevil@gmail.com
This is Bleezing.
SPEAKER_03:This is Lindsay.
SPEAKER_00:And this is another episode of the W. This week, let me ask you a question. Yes. That's the moment. It's chaos. It's anger. It's outrage. But underneath it, there's grief. There's longing. There's a hunger for connection and for healing. If you feel exhausted or even ashamed that you're not doing enough, I invite you to take a breath. You're not broken, you're human, and you're not alone. Today, Lindsay and I, we're not gonna add to that fire, right? That fire that's burning brightly out there right now. We're talking about a different way to live in this storm. And we're inspired by voices like Arthur C. Brooks, who reminds us that contempt is a cancer to our culture and that love is the cure. By Jason Pargin, who warns us that the media profits from your rage, and by Terence Real, who helps us see that doing better begins in how we relate to ourselves and to others. And we'll ask what is the truth that the we'll ask what if the truth isn't me versus them, but we are I, or as Lindsay learned in the Bob Marley movie, I and I, a sacred understanding that the divine spark in me sees and honors the divine spark in you. And we hope today that this episode conceived by Lindsay will let us go beyond the outrage. But with that being said, let's get into our normal banter, that heavy, that heavy uh opening aside. Lindsay, what is up? It is good to have you back. I had a I the I know, I was very sick last week. Is an episode without you?
SPEAKER_03:I was, and and we just came back from the weekend of visiting the Queen Mom up at college. Um, and she said, I've made the right choice. This is the place for me. Um, her roommate had the flu, and so we told her, um, don't get the flu. I've tried very hard not to get the flu. But I have to say, I did spy a few photos of her on the gram, as the kids would say, at a frat party on Halloween, and the place looked pretty filthy and pretty packed. And I would imagine if one kid got the flu in there, they all got it.
SPEAKER_00:I'm sure it was flu Louine. Flu Laween. I saw I saw it. I don't know if you saw the picture, but I saw it. Oh it was like densely, it was like it was densely packed.
SPEAKER_03:Wall-to-wall people, college students, really. So yeah, and we just came back from a weekend upstate. We had a great time way, way up in the Finger Lakes, and we stayed, of course, at the Black Sheep Inn and Spa, our favorite vegan bed and breakfast, which now is owned by Kim and Gary, who bought the business from Simon and Miranda. And we had a lovely, lovely stay and really got to know the folks a bit, and you know, did a little drinking of the wine up there. We went to our favorite place, Birdseye Hollow Distillery, and we got to see our friend Steve, who we hadn't seen the last time we were there because he wasn't feeling well. So, yeah, all in all, it was a really great, it was a great weekend.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, we we were planning on having Steve on. Very interesting character. Uh we spent a lot of time talking about trauma and healing. Um, and it might have been over a couple of uh rise, but it was it was a good conversation.
SPEAKER_03:The apple jackie was not yet invented at that point.
SPEAKER_00:Yes, the apple jackie had not yet been created. Copyright Bird's Eye Hollow.
SPEAKER_03:Well, actually, copyright Lindsay and Cleve, but well, maybe we'll give it to Steve. Um, yep, it was it was really lovely, and it's really nice to get out of the city sometimes. Last week was a pretty chaotic week in the city, and we left. Yeah, we left and we got to visit. I I mean, I miss Lila so much. That's my girl, and um, so it was so great to see her, and so great to see her thriving and growing up. Her birthday is this week, she's gonna be 18.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, what was interesting about the Black Sheep In and Spa is we've loved Simon and Miranda for many years and wish them the best of luck as they've returned home to jolly old England. And it was it was different, right? If if if you watch Three's Company, I'm not, I know you're not a big TV watcher. I've watched that though, but it was almost like I and I told this to Gary, the lovely Gary Stewart. I was like, Gary, will you be Mr. Furley or will you be like those those when that time on the Dukes of Hazard when Bo and Luke Duke were replaced by their less beloved cousins who I don't even remember their name? And and I will tell you by the end of that stay, I think Gary and Kim will have the enduring love of Mr. Furley.
SPEAKER_03:Yes, and it's you know, it's gonna be it's gonna it's gonna be great. They're gonna do a lot of new things. And while we loved Simon and Miranda, we would also love to continue to support other people uh in those businesses. And I mean, all in all, we just had a really great weekend away.
SPEAKER_00:I mean, I slept so many hours, like 7:30, like every night at and waking up at five or six in the morning.
SPEAKER_03:I mean, it was fantastic. There's it's so dark and there's no noise. It's silent there at night. And even this morning, I think you woke up around 3:30 and you were like, Well, I've gotten a lot of sleep this weekend. And I was like, Oh, me too. But then I snuggled right in next to you and I didn't get up again until six. So I think I slept another, you know, 12 hours last night, maybe Jen and a half, but it was great. And we had a nice time, and now it's time for us to be home until Christmas because we have been away a lot.
SPEAKER_00:We we have been world traveling. Uh, one of my uh former colleagues, uh, the company I used to work for, yeah, NBC Universal, actually reached out to me last week and was like, yo, bro, you are the coolest dude ever. Are you in Florida? Are you in the Caribbean? Are you in outer space? It's like you are constantly traveling. And on the way home uh today, Lindsay was like, Won't it be nice uh to just finally uh put our feet up and actually sit home?
SPEAKER_03:Right until Christmas. So, because then we've got a whirlwind of trips again. We're gonna be back down in Naples, Florida for a couple of weeks. Then we're gonna be at the end of the month, we'll be home for maybe three weeks. Then we're leaving for the British Virgin Islands again for 10 days. April, we've got a couple of weeks in Nevis, maybe, and then in June.
SPEAKER_00:Not maybe we do.
SPEAKER_03:And then in June, we're going back to the BVI. So it's busy, and I know you want to go to Prescott. I yes, I know, and I know you want to go also to Barbados in October.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, yeah, that's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We got a lot. Well, this episode is sponsored by Trusted House Sitters. It's not actually sponsored by Trusted House Sitters, but if Trusted House Sitters, if you're listening to this, please sponsor us. But all of this is made possible by Thank you, Simon and Miranda, Trusted House Sitters.
SPEAKER_03:I mean, what a great, great uh service to some for somebody to stay in your home and take better care of your animals than you do.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Oh, that is the case. Because every time we come home, these dogs are like, wait, what?
SPEAKER_03:We're not gonna sit outside all day.
SPEAKER_00:This is we're not taking 15 walks, we're not getting treats. And here's an amazing thing, and I would seriously like to thank Simon and Miranda for so many things. I talked to Simon today, and I was like, Simon, I want you to know that you did leave the black sheep in and spa in good hands. And Simon says to me, Well, I set the in in his great British humor says to me, Well, I set the paw pretty low.
SPEAKER_03:And I was like, Oh, I do miss them and their hospitality. They were really fun people. And let's just talk briefly, segue into a little something before we get into the show.
SPEAKER_00:But man, some people are so annoying. Right. But that's part of what the show is gonna be about.
unknown:Right.
SPEAKER_03:I mean, I I think that I, you know, I don't want to say too much because I would like to talk about this on a whole episode, but oh, there's nothing more annoying than someone who has to be right all the time, like to the point where they will actually go and try to send you research on the topic or start a conversation with you on another topic and say, I hope you don't do X, Y, and Z because of this. Do you want to see the article I read? And I'm like, yeah, no, thank you. Oh, thanks. Thanks for sharing. But, you know, and then another thing, and then we'll really get into it is we listened to a great the weekly podcast with Tara Brock today on the way home. And I thought, wow, this is great. That, you know, it was such a great podcast. And she did refer kind of briefly to the things that are going on in the country right now, but she said that all of us have this fear, this, you know, kind of PTSD and fear that is kind of deeply rooted in us, mostly as the result of trauma. And it was such a great episode.
SPEAKER_00:Um, didn't you think? Oh, it was awesome. It was awesome. I want you if you haven't sent it to me, please send it to me uh because it made me think about a couple of people in my life. It made me think about myself. And oh, I I know some folks that would definitely benefit from that actually.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, it was very triggering for me. And I thought, wow, this is, you know, behind everything is this fear, this fear that keeps us stuck and keeps us in this space of, you know, unpleasant feelings. And it was, it was very interesting because, you know, she had said something I had never thought of, but you have to ask people, like, what is it that makes you feel safe? Like, what is safety to you? And, you know, I don't think that we do that. And it made me think a lot about a lot of my clients, and I've never taken that approach with them, but I have some clients who've experienced a significant amount of trauma. And what a great approach to really kind of anchor in. And, you know, she said that there's a lot of mindfulness is the solution for what's going on.
SPEAKER_00:And, you know, that idea of safe, I'm gonna go, I'm gonna deviate here for one second, but it also goes back to what we're talking about. Is she said the lack of safety or the lack of feeling safe often leads to you two lash out in anger. And I believe with my heart, as you said that, that there's so many people in the world today who are angry because so many people no longer feel safe.
SPEAKER_03:100%. I agree with you. So, but let's leave that for another episode and move into tonight's show, which I thought about because of this was prior to the you know mayoral election in New York City, but all of this government shut down and everything that's going on in the world. Um, I said to you, it's not even just politicians, everybody, all of us. We can all do better. Right. We can all do a little bit better in our lives. And it takes kindness, as Tara Brock said today, right? That it's kindness that's going to change the world. Kindness is what's going to be important.
SPEAKER_00:The level of dysfunction, the level of, I'm gonna say it one more time because it's really pissing me off. The level of dysfunction in this country is so idiotically ridiculous that we've become so divided that there are people who keep us safe, who are not getting paid right now, who are on who who can't even get can't even get snapped. Because the two sides are no have chosen to no longer do the work of the people, but have chosen because they don't like each other, because they don't like this guy, and that guy doesn't like them, to be like, hey, everybody else can go to hell.
SPEAKER_03:Right. And you're very passionate about this topic. I do know that. Um, but you know what I'm referring to in regards to, yeah, we can all do better, it does, it does feel like a petty fight to me. Right. Who will say that? That's how I perceive it. It's a petty fight of this side doesn't want to agree with that side, and nobody will kind of compromise and meet in the middle because there's such a disdain for a specific individual. But this, what I'm talking about, is not a doing better as a massive global fix, but a series of intentional personal practices that can ripple positive change. Okay. And I see that because, you know, I do meditate regularly, and I did have my two-hour training last week. And we can all just do a little bit better in this world. We can stop having so many opinions and we can stop judging, and we can start loving and being kind.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, that reminds me of the work of Arthur C. Brooks, who said, if you want to persuade someone, do not show contempt, but show warmth instead. And so, to me, to follow up on what you're saying, doing better isn't just about crushing enemies, or as certain people do, well, I'm gonna show you the research where you're wrong. Yeah. I'm not sure about the operations and services of that place. It's about it's about terrible rejecting the cultural outrage or rejecting the addiction to being outraged at what everybody else is does. Like when we were driving home today on the um where that idiot, you know, and I couldn't, and I saw a video, it was like a very passionate day today. Yeah, very passionate, but where that idiot drives up the side of the road where it wasn't even a shoulder. Yeah, guys in the dirt. But the bridge was up, there was nowhere to go. It's like, bro, where you going? But to your point, to to choosing how you respond, I saw a guy in and it was on an Instagram or it might have been threads the other day, where the guy's like, hey man, when somebody cuts you off, that person has probably immediately forgotten about you. And he was like, Yeah, you could spaz out, or you could just be like, I guess that person's having a bad day.
SPEAKER_03:And that person clearly has somewhere really important to be, and they've got to get there quickly. That's what I always say. I let people pass, I let people merge, I let people, you know, cut in front of me, whatever it is. I don't even care. I really invest so little in that. And it's it's more about the way that you receive it in those moments. You can say, Oh, all right, well, whatever. Or, like you're saying, you can hang on to that and I'll be better. And it's not a judgment, it's just a, you know, there's no way that we can one person can single-handedly solve the problems of the world, but we can all do a little bit better and be kinder and have more love and help people out. And that little bit of change makes you feel better, but it also impacts people around you.
SPEAKER_00:Right. In in his book, um, us, uh, Terrence Real talks about thinking in three spheres, right? And he talks about doing inner work, which is connecting with your own emotional truth. He talks about relational work, which is how you show up for those around you, especially when it's hard. And he talks about outward action, which is not grandiose gestures, which is not, oh, look at me, look at me, look at what I'm doing, but but micro movements and like doing things that really, really matter, right?
SPEAKER_03:Right. And that's doing everything with intentionality, which I talk about a lot.
SPEAKER_00:Right, right. And you can't do better alone, right? Part many of the conversations that we had with the lovely folks this weekend uh were about, you know, why can't we all do better? Like, why can't we all why can't why is it that this, why is it that we're, and I'm gonna ask you this question, why is it we're addicted? Why do you think people are addicted to like being right or or I have to prove you wrong?
SPEAKER_03:Well, I always say it's because they can't look at their own stuff, and that is a fact. It's if you keep projecting outward, then you never have to look at what's happening inside of you.
SPEAKER_00:It's like I I just sometimes I literally just don't understand like why folks make the choice. The delivery, like you call it, and we've been rated PG for uh a minute, but one of the things you call it is being an on-purpose asshole.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, absolutely. I say that when you intentionally do something to be a jerk or to upset somebody else, you are being an on-purpose asshole. There's no reason to be that.
unknown:Right.
SPEAKER_03:Except for that in some way it makes you feel better not to look at your own stuff.
SPEAKER_00:And so, you know, let's talk about some tools. Back to what Tara Brock talked about, this idea of safety, right? And one of the persons that I have I've had the privilege of working with over the past three years, I remember a conversation from several years ago. This person told me they actually do not feel safe with their husband because whenever they're talking to their husband, they already know the dude is not actually even absorbing what they're saying, but is thinking about their response back. And it goes back to what John C. Maxwell says in his book Relationships 101, that in order to communicate, we have to actively listen to each other.
SPEAKER_03:Well, I think we actually know somebody like that too. But anyway, I'm just gonna keep that to myself right now. Uh, but that's true.
SPEAKER_00:Because that means that you're not present. Right, right, right, right. And so do you think that the fact that we that we're not doing better or that people aren't doing better, but that it might go back to a lack of mindfulness? Like, what are your thoughts on that?
SPEAKER_03:I definitely think that. I think people are not present, but I also think some people are just so traumatized that they don't know how to be present. And that was something that we had listened to today, also, is that people become so disconnected from themselves because of their traumatic experiences, it's almost too painful. And Tara Propp did go into saying in depth that when you start to practice this mindfulness and these things come up for you, it can be very painful and it can be really hard and it can re-traumatize you. And that's why it's important to learn how to bring yourself out of it and then come back in when you're ready for more healing.
SPEAKER_00:In addition to this disconnection from yourself, I feel personally, and you know, I know we talk about it, you know, I know I wrote a book, I know we have a podcast, I know we have a website, I know we have a social media presence, but I often feel that social media is a huge part of the problem. Um, and one of the many discussions that we had over this lovely week and is the idea um that rage is that rage is something that is that the media that the algorithm uses to engage people, to, to, to keep them engaged in the in the in the engine. Like what are you what are your thoughts on that?
SPEAKER_03:I think so. We always talk about how the media puts things on the news on purpose to get a response. And sometimes you'll see things and they actually happened 10 years ago. Yeah. And they're bringing them up on the news now because it's fear-mongering almost.
SPEAKER_00:So so it goes back to well, I'm I think what we're practicing right here is tool number two, which you wrote down, which is to listen to which what I was what we were just speaking about, which is listen to understand, not to rebut.
SPEAKER_03:Right. It's we don't always have to have something to say back to someone, and that's another thing. I you and I have been dealing with this with somebody for a couple of days now. So some people just don't even listen, they're not present in that moment, but they're thinking of exactly what you were just saying, they're thinking of the next thing to say because they can't listen to it. They have to put it on somebody else, they have to blame somebody.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. In his 2024 New Year's resolution video, Jason Pargin and I said this, and I'm really, really trying hard to work on it. Is the next time someone says something that you disagree with, but you do not necessarily have the facts or the figures or the supporting argument, instead of going immediately back to rebut that person, he's like, Why don't you try this? I do not have enough information to form an opinion on this subject.
SPEAKER_03:I do like that very much. I should have actually said that a few times this weekend, right? So but let you know, let's keep going on. And and the next thing that we were gonna talk about is kind of understanding and defining your sphere of influence. Right, right. So, what what can you do and where can you do it? You can't fix everything, but you can fix some things.
SPEAKER_00:One of the things I talked to you about in the car, and it's mixes in the idea from listen to understand, not to rebut, and defining your sphere of influence is I instead of rebutting people now or trying to make them feel foolish, I'm like, hey, I just ask you a question out of curiosity is is either I'm gonna paraphrase, which is a good therapist skill, or I'm gonna, or ask you, help me understand why services and operations I'm gonna speak are so important to you, you know, like or help me understand why this issue, hey, I'm not gonna crap on you for this, right? But help me understand why this is important to you. And to go back into tool number three is how is this how is this infecting um impacting your influences? Like, how is this actually impacting you? Right, 100%. Right, right, right.
SPEAKER_03:Can you fix everything? No, I already said that, but you can have an impact on some people, and if you impact even one person, you've made a change.
SPEAKER_00:Right. Some of the action points that you have here are can you can you improve your home? Your home? Can you improve your workplace? Can you get involved in your school?
SPEAKER_03:You can do anything, right? And you can decide where you want to do it.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, one of and you've talked about this uh over several episodes is your breathwork coach says you can do what? You can get sucked into all of this or you can work on yourself. And that goes beyond the, you know, and that goes beyond like what we're talking about, right? That goes beyond the race.
SPEAKER_03:Absolutely. It goes it, it's just, you know, start looking at yourself.
SPEAKER_00:Uh tool number four is the both and thinking. And what is that?
SPEAKER_03:Well, it's that we can't, you know, we don't have to choose one side. We can we can say that we don't condone something, but also seek to understand why it's done. We don't have to have one specific opinion and hold strong to that.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, like one of my um colleagues, I won't say his name because he doesn't have, he didn't give me his permission to say his name on the on the on the podcast, but I'll just call him Mr. Armstrong. Used to always say that two things can be true.
SPEAKER_03:Right. I always say there's more than one way to get to a solution.
SPEAKER_00:Right. Uh, one of the gentlemen that we talked about today when we were talking about like why is the world not a better place, he was like saying that what he's learned, um, this guy's a solutions architect, so I would uh I would agree with him. Um in and I think all the wives out there, you are all solution architects, and you would agree with him also, is that there can't, you you, you can't come into, and he was like, the problem, the difference between that he learned as he became a solutions architect between Western and Eastern thinking is that Western thinking has become this thing binary, right? Where either I'm right or you're wrong. And there's only one way to a solution. If you go into a marriage like that, Lindsay, what's gonna happen? It's not going to work because I'm always right. Right? If you go into a family like that, yes, it's no, but it's true.
SPEAKER_03:It's not going to work. You have to be able to respect other people's viewpoints. Right.
SPEAKER_00:And he said one of the things in the East is Eastern people uh often believe, well, first of all, they believe in community thinking, whereas Westerners, and even Terence Real talks about this in us, believe in the power of the individual, whereas the Easterners believe in the power of community. Um, Star Trek, when Spock dies to save the USS Enterprise and Kirk asks him why. Spock says to him, the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one, right? However, we live in an America which has become the reverse. A Western world that's so content but so full of anger that the needs of the one or the needs of my ego or the needs of what I believe to be right outweighs the needs of the many.
SPEAKER_03:Yep.
SPEAKER_00:Right. And so this you or I think, or is, as, as um as Dr. Covey uh has talked about in his book, The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People, this win-lose idea, right, is what is impacting us very badly, and why we can't, why many of us as as a people can't do better.
SPEAKER_03:Outrage is easy, but I think absolutely, but also this is something else. Things are gonna happen to you, it's inevitable. Things are going to happen in the world, it's inevitable. It's how we handle them.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah. You recently had someone um curse you out.
SPEAKER_03:I did.
SPEAKER_00:I had a client actually curse me out.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And and it makes me think of your note that complexity is not a weakness, it's wisdom.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. Oh, well, I always say I can always tell how a lot about my clients by how they react to me and how they interact with me. And I I'm not thinking about it now, it doesn't bother me. But I think the problem is that this is a client who comes to therapy when their partner says, Oh, you need a little refresher from your therapist. And there's no consistency and there's no using the tools. And this person is so absorbed in everything and about being right and being the victim that he has to keep that storyline going. And so what ends up happening is it just becomes this constant projection onto other people.
SPEAKER_00:So, how could that person or a person who's obsessed with anger, how could they do better?
SPEAKER_03:Well, people just need to heal themselves. And there's many modalities of healing. I don't know what specifically could work for every individual, but just shut up. Shut up and and take a listen. You know, that person would benefit from just sitting and listening. Right. And saying, oh, maybe possibly, right? This is a thing.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. You know, you have this note here about sustaining effort and the oxygen mask principle. What is that? And it has a quote there. I think it's change begins with who?
SPEAKER_03:Well, with you, right? You put your oxygen mask on first before you help other people. And is it a one-time thing? Always. You always have to take care of yourself first.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:One of the things I learned in the book Us, and I and I try to put it in practice very much in this marriage and in other places that I show up, is we are relational beings. We need to stay well, right? For me, for us all to do better, I realize that I have to do better.
SPEAKER_01:Right.
SPEAKER_00:It goes back to this idea of the wise adult and the adaptive child. It's a sustaining, like for me, it's like I have to always constantly catch myself. And I have to remember, hey, you know what? There's no reason to argue here. There's no reason to prove a point here. There's no reason, but it's work every day. And so we're not saying, and I don't think what you're saying when you conceive this episode that, you know, that it's easy to necessarily do the work, right? I listened to Arthur C. Brooks, who wrote the wonderful book, Love Your Enemies, and he talks about loving and trying not to show contempt. And he said he was kind of mad with himself because he said he saw himself on a on a, I think it was on Fox News one day disagreeing with somebody, and he sucked his teeth and rolled his eyes. And he was like, here I am, and I'm talking about not showing contempt. And this person disagreed with me. And he was like, What was my immediate response? To show contempt.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. Well, because people react to anger with anger often.
SPEAKER_00:Often, often. So, how can we break that cycle?
SPEAKER_03:Well, it it depends. For me, it's I I practice mindfulness and meditation of just saying yes to what is and allowing things to be there. And I think also, who are we talking to where they said that they had to think about how it impacted the other person?
SPEAKER_00:Do you remember that? I don't remember, but it's probably one of the- Do you remember what we were talking about?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, but it's probably one of the many married couples that we talked to this weekend that were successfully, you know, married and and we're having a Right, but it's about thinking about how the other person is going to receive something or how the other person is going to feel as a result of it.
SPEAKER_00:What let me ask you a question. I think you wrote it here, radical self-care. What is I I what is what is that?
SPEAKER_03:Well, just take care of yourself. It's the most important thing. Self-care. I tell everybody that. And so for some of my clients now, that self-care is just 10 minutes of sitting and doing nothing. Take care of yourself, love yourself, do the things you love. Because if you don't love yourself, you don't know how to let other people love you. And that's where a lot of anger comes from.
SPEAKER_00:Is is doing better than so is so is doing better reading the New York Post, reading the Daily News, reading the Washington Times, reading the Los Angeles Times, uh, watching Fox or MSN, and then saying it, you know, gobbling down this fire hose of bad news. Is that doing better?
SPEAKER_03:No, I don't, not for me, it's not, because all it does is increase my anxiety.
SPEAKER_00:So, what is doing better? Like what would something is you as a as a mindfulness coach and a meditation?
SPEAKER_03:Well, what I teach my clients is to sit for five to ten minutes every single day and do absolutely nothing. Do nothing, no scrolling, no watching TV, no reading a book, no listening to music, just sitting and doing absolutely nothing.
SPEAKER_00:Right, right. It's finding joy in the dark times and seeing what comes up. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Right? Be with yourself. I always say when I meditate, I'm going home to visit myself.
SPEAKER_00:I'm gonna do my bad Jmiakan accent. Oh, good Lord. And I'm gonna talk about I and I. What is I and I? Remember when we when we watched that we are one, right?
unknown:Right.
SPEAKER_03:Right? We're all one. And we and we are right in and that's what we say in Buddhism, right? They say that you know, at the moment of creation, a portion of the soul, a portion of God becomes a part of the soul of every living being. So that means that every single person has one part of them that's exactly the same, right? And it's that part of the soul. And and so it's the same idea is that we are all one.
SPEAKER_00:I remember that was something that blew you away when we saw that wonderful Bob Marley. It was about two years ago, one love, right? That that was the documentary, the movie, the Bob Marley movie. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That we saw that we saw in the movie theater. Yes, I know. Yeah, and it was I remember it. Yeah. Oh Lord.
SPEAKER_03:No, I remember it.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, but wasn't it to the Alamo, my favorite place. Also, Alamo, if you want to sponsor us, please do. Um, but I remember that was like a even though some people said, hey, it was a whitewashing of Bob Marley's life and it did covered over it covered, it wasn't necessary to see his ugly parts in that movie.
SPEAKER_03:No, it wasn't. It wasn't at all because that's not really what he stood for.
SPEAKER_00:Right, right. He stood for love. He stood for unity. Remember, hey.
SPEAKER_03:Love and the peace.
SPEAKER_00:The whole idea about the movie was the unity concert, right? Right. And and how Jamaica was at a time of the crossroads, and he was like, despite getting shot, right? Despite getting almost assassinated, the assassination attempt against his life, he was like, I am going to go out and I am still gonna give this message of peace, harmony, and unity.
SPEAKER_03:Right, absolutely. And I mean, I yeah. And and it's also that, but that's really what he stood for was love, right? And isn't isn't it Ziggy who sings Love is My Religion? Love is my religion. Yeah, okay. No, that's enough for you.
SPEAKER_00:Thank you. I think I've done enough singing too this week.
SPEAKER_03:Be kind, love one another, and and do kind things for people. There's a difference between being kind and nice.
SPEAKER_00:And I think for me personally, it's like remembering that this is something that when you get those IRL moments, as Arthur C. Brooke said, or you get these moments where your spouse inevitably irritates you, or your child irritates you, or your boss irritates you, is like, you know, like Tara Brock, Tara Brock in that in that podcast we listened to today, talked about an example of um of a therapist whose client, you know, had a similar um, she had a similar situation with a client who like yelled at her and screamed at her, and she, you know, had a real- Oh, that's what we were talking about earlier.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. That was where I heard that. Okay, so go ahead. Tell you tell that. Well, she said that she had to put herself in that person's shoes for a minute, which is empathy. Right. She had to think how is this impacting this person and what must have been coming up for this person in this moment. Right, right. That's very important. And that's how we do better. Right. By just taking a moment and stopping and being.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I I talked about I talked about in the car today, right? Like I I I we both know someone who's been upset about a job that they lost maybe like over a decade ago, and they're still there, and they're still angry about it, and they're still mad about it, and it's still impacting their life.
SPEAKER_03:Right. And you can choose to hang on to things, or you can just do something else and let go of it.
SPEAKER_00:Right. You know, listen, you know, I've had jobs that I'm that I did not that I that did not work out. I'd had situations that did not work out, I've had a marriage that did not work out. Right. And I choose, and I got some bad news about my ex-wife recently, and I'm glad that she's doing better. I immediately, you saw me, I immediately cried in the car when I heard this bad news. But but, you know, I don't, I want to show up, I want to do better. Everybody that's done me wrong, and I'm telling you, everybody that's done me wrong, and it's like it goes back to what Wendy said to us a couple of weeks ago. It's not, hey, I forgive you. We don't ever have to eat lunch.
SPEAKER_03:Right. You don't have to have lunch together, but you can, and forgiveness is not about the other person, it's about yourself. Forgiveness is for you.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. I still have complicated feelings and great affection for many people that have done me wrong. For many people that I don't like, I probably would never eat lunch for. But theory or eat lunch with. That's what I meant to say. I'm so, I'm getting so animated. But there's this there's many people that I don't would never probably eat lunch with them again, or you know, I might shake your hand, but I won't sit down with you. But that doesn't mean I don't have affection for you. I don't mean I don't remember the good times. I've had bosses that I probably would not eat dinner with them if they invited me over, but I still have a form of human affection and empathy, and I understand their struggle. And I think it goes back to like doing better, goes back to that eye and eye. It goes back to, you know, am I it do I understand why that person did that? Right? My last job that I left is I didn't leave it out of anger, I didn't leave it out of rage. I just, and I will admit it.
SPEAKER_03:You left it because you weren't happy.
SPEAKER_00:I wasn't happy, and I could not do the job in the way that those people wanted me to do the job. It wasn't no animosity.
SPEAKER_03:I wasn't aligned with you anymore.
SPEAKER_00:No animosity. I'm not gonna, I wasn't holding on to it for 15 years. Yep. But there are people who are holding on to anger, they're holding on to rage, and part of doing better is letting go of that anger, that rage, that animosity, that hurt, and learning to kind of like pivot. You know, pivot and be like, hey, you know what? That person that stepped on my toe or offended me or called me fat or called me ugly. What were they going through? Yeah, it's their own stuff, right? It's nothing to do with you. Can you believe? I don't think I told you this. Somebody reached out to me recently from junior high school and was like, yo, dude, I am so sorry for how badly I treated you in seventh grade. And he was like, I was going through a lot at home, and you were like an easy target. And I was like, yo, bro, it's all good, man. Did you even remember the person? Um, vaguely. Vaguely. Yeah. And I was like, dude, it was all good. You we were little kids, man. If I was like, if I held on to that, if I still held on to that, I mean, it'd be it'd be crazy. But there are people, Lindsay, who was still holding on to stuff like that.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I don't I mean, I don't remember much from middle school.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. No, I remember a lot.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, you remember everything.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I was, you know, I was really picked on and and bullied as as the as the as the smart kid as the. Did you pick someone's butt? Uh I had to. It wasn't my it wasn't any any fight that I ever had, it was always, it was always out of, it wasn't, it wasn't in my heart to do it, but I did it to defend myself. But I used to really, really try hard to avoid, to avoid fights. I used to really try to hard to avoid fights. I think the important thing as we wrap up on this is, and at least for me, and I'll let you get a um before I close with that outro, um, any final thoughts that you have on it. Is the question I ask myself every day is am I showing up differently? And always, believe it or not, even though I leave dishes over the house and tissue everywhere and annoy you from toilet seat up and toilet seat up, even in restaurants all the time, is did I show up differently today?
SPEAKER_03:And you know what? Sometimes you ask me, How did I do this week?
SPEAKER_00:Right? Right.
SPEAKER_03:Right? We have like a little marital check-in.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. It's nice, right? Is how did I do? Am I doing all right? How are you doing? And I I actually stole that from you because you'll just randomly ask me, How's your mental health? Is how's my mental health?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. Well, it's important. I tell all my clients the same thing. When you start dating someone, it's all fun games. There's like sex and dates and all this fun times. And then you get, you know, get into a more serious relationship, you get married, you move in together, you have financial things, you have kids, you have all this stuff going on, and so you lose sight of all the fun things. And so I always say, I always ask you how your mental health is because I just want to make sure everything's going all right.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. And I and I just don't want to make and I think what's part of doing better is is not making is simply not making the assumption that everything's okay with everybody all the time.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, it is okay, but it's sometimes it doesn't feel okay, but it's always okay.
SPEAKER_00:But you need to check in with your partner and your family members.
SPEAKER_03:100%. And I said that to you last week where we had a whole conversation around that because I said when I put the dishes in the sink, you know, I go to go to do in the morning I wake up and you said to me, Oh, leave me the food. And then you're like, Oh, well, I didn't eat it, but I just threw the dish in the sink and I didn't even rinse it. Yeah. And to me, I said, Well, I tell you how annoying that is for me. So I just don't think you respect me.
SPEAKER_00:Right. And Terry Real actually gives that example in us. He said, You gotta understand as a husband, husbands, I need you to understand that after a while, your wife Noel will no longer accept I forgot this, I was them absent-minded. He was like, You have to make an effort because it does eventually become disrespect.
SPEAKER_03:And I said that to you, and you you were open to that. And you said, All right, I'm gonna try harder. Now I gotta be honest with you, the verdict is still out of whether or not they believe you. Well, Terry really But I would like to believe you, and I would like you to just do that because the problem now is that you're the only one here, so I know it's not the kids.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and Terry does say that in us that even he, as the author of this book, his wife will be, Wow, that was a really good thing that you said at that speech, you narcissist Terry. And he'll be like, You said something in the car today, and I was like, Well, you should practice that. And then it doesn't, but he'll be like, and he just says instead of rebutting her, and he's he'll be like, honey, honey, I'm trying. And she'll be like, try hard, and he'll be like, and he's just like, I'm trying. But it's a choice, it is a choice.
SPEAKER_03:It is, it is Well, I think can I say why I think it is with you? I don't think they're present because you're always on to the next thing. And I keep telling you that if you actually end sessions on time, you get 15 minutes for every hour. And if you rinse the dish, then the next day it doesn't take three times as long to scrub the stuff out of it.
SPEAKER_00:But did you see what I did there when Mark was trying to defend me this afternoon and say, well, hey, he's just trying to be. And I was like, no, no. I was like, she's right.
SPEAKER_03:Because if I do it because you don't have boundaries.
SPEAKER_00:Yes, but if but but if I do it, but here's the thing. If I do it with seven clients, that's that's seven clients, the ten minutes a client, that's seven minutes.
SPEAKER_03:Fifteen.
SPEAKER_00:But that's uh yeah, so I'm doing like Terry says, which is like 105 minutes.
SPEAKER_03:It's a lot of time. Girl, you count I am just thing as oh annoying. But husbands annoying. It's so annoying.
SPEAKER_00:Husbands, I want you to announce- No, I don't want to hear any excuses. No, I'm not gonna say an excuse. Hey husbands, I want you to listen to this live example on air as I say. I'm not gonna I'm gonna practice everything we just talked here. I'm not rebutting, I'm listening, and I'm gonna continue to try to do better. That's all I can do is just show up every day, right? And that's all any of us can do is just continue as we all try to muddle through this this morass, this crazy world of shutdowns and snap benefits being taken away, and and next week when we record again, I will report in. Yes, you can report in if Cleveland actually did better. Because we can all do better. Lindsay, um, any last words before I do a little bit of an outro here?
SPEAKER_03:No, I think that's it.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so we started this episode with noise, and I wanted to end it with this. You don't have to be a hero, you just have to be human. To love in a time of outrage, or as the new Superman said in this kindness in love with the new punk rock. It's not an act of rebellion. To see the other side as part of the same sacred fabric of iron eyes, that is a revolution. So your assignment is simple and you already heard Lindsay, give it to me watching this. Stop moving, stop going back and forth.
SPEAKER_03:We can have a we can go back and forth a little bit. I don't mind the light.
SPEAKER_00:Use it, use it.
