The Devil You Don’t Know
In The Devil You Don’t Know, Lindsay, Cleveland, and their guests discuss personal growth and development by taking chances and getting out of your comfort zone. Topics range from whimsical to serious and everything in between but are always relevant to growth and development.
The Devil You Don’t Know
Saying Yes To What Is: An Antidote to Suffering
What if the pain you feel isn’t the problem—what if the fight against it is? We dive into the quiet habit of saying “no” to our own emotions, how that creates the “second arrow” of suffering, and why radical acceptance can be the most practical, compassionate path forward. From grief and breakups to career ruts and body goals, we share real stories and useful tools for meeting hard moments without numbing or spiraling.
We unpack the difference between pain and suffering, and how the mind’s urge to fix, explain, or outrun discomfort keeps us stuck. You’ll hear how guilt after a loss can masquerade as love, why clinging to old identities blocks new possibilities, and how simple practices—naming sensations, allowing tears, dropping the inner debate—can release tension and restore agency. We explore the fear that keeps us “prisoners of comfort,” and how small, honest yeses to reality lead to clearer choices, healthier boundaries, and meaningful change.
Along the way, we talk about non-negotiables that quiet the self-critique loop, the trap of doomscrolling, and the myth that acceptance equals approval. Acceptance is not surrender; it’s ending the war with what already exists so your next move comes from steadiness, not panic. If you’ve been looping on what-ifs, replaying old scenes, or resisting a new chapter, this conversation offers a grounded way to feel what’s here and move forward with less drama and more dignity.
If this resonated, follow the show, share it with a friend who needs it today, and leave a review to help more people find these tools. What’s one thing you’re ready to stop resisting? Let us know.
Please email us at Gettoknowthedevil@gmail.com
This is Cleveland.
SPEAKER_03:This is Lindsay.
SPEAKER_00:And this is another episode of The Devil You Don't Know. Lindsay, what are we gonna be talking about today?
SPEAKER_03:Saying yes to what is an antidote to suffering.
SPEAKER_00:So if I understand this topic correctly, I think what you're talking about is learning to accept the things in your life that you cannot change.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, and it's about really being able to accept all kind of our emotions and experiences that we're having internally. Rather than saying no to them, accepting the unpleasants and being with it.
SPEAKER_00:So it kind of reminds me of the Serenity. Is that a word? Unpleasants?
SPEAKER_03:I you know I don't think it is, but I just made it up.
SPEAKER_00:It's it's the 21st century. Um you can make up a whole lot of things in the 21st century if you haven't watched uh the news and TikTok and other uh and other things.
SPEAKER_03:That's true.
SPEAKER_00:Um I don't really watch a lot of those things, but so so kind of, and I just want to understand, kind of what you're talking about reminds me of the serenity prayer that from Alcoholics Anonymous, which is God give me the power to accept the things that I can't change, but also give me the something like that.
SPEAKER_03:I don't think you're wording it correctly.
SPEAKER_00:Well, it's close, it's my version. I mean, God give me the power to accept the things that I can't change, and God give me the power to accept to change the things that I can, but let me know the difference. And so it kind of seems like the concept of what you're talking about here is learning to accept the things in your life that you the difficult things in your life that you cannot change.
SPEAKER_03:Absolutely. And it doesn't mean saying like don't not to have boundaries or that you should tolerate things from people or that you should be okay with certain things that are happening in your life, but it's about saying yes to that unpleasant internal experience that you have as a result of those things.
SPEAKER_00:Ah, makes sense. So before we get into that topic, as always, we like to have a little bit of banter. Um, tell the folks about where we are in the world today, because as one of my former colleagues from the not former colleagues, but one of my uh friends from grad school texted me the other day as I posted some pictures of us. She was like, Do you work anymore? Do you even have a job? As I texted my endless people, well, we're in Naples, Florida.
SPEAKER_03:Um, one of your favorite places. Yes, indeedy. Excuse me, that you would probably, if I said yes, you'd come tomorrow and never look back.
SPEAKER_00:Yes, indeedy.
SPEAKER_03:So, and we're just spending the about 10 days here at my parents' house while they're out on a safari in Africa. And yeah, we're just enjoying everything that the area has to offer. The weather is amazing. I mean, I love summer and it's about 90 and humid, which is my jam. Oh, yeah, I love the heat, I love the humidity. It's like summer times 10 over here. I'm loving every moment of it. We've been at the pool today. We walked to uh we walked, we went to Tiger Tail Beach in Marco Island. We got a latte and walked the beach. It was amazing. Um, it was a huge huge. I've never seen such a big beach. Yeah, I've never seen such a big beach. We went to Pensacola Beach years ago, remember? That was a big beach. Oh my gosh, Tiger Tail Beach in Marco Island is so huge. It's a half a mile walk from the car to the water. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:What's crazy to me about Florida, and we're not political and we're not politicians. And Lindsay always says that I don't talk politics. Yeah, we don't talk politics. But what's always crazy is to me, is and I will say this, is that I know folks who are brainwashed by the media. And Lindsay, when I say brainwashed by the media, what do I mean? Well, they'll never come to Florida. Right? Because the media has told them that.
SPEAKER_03:Well, they don't like Ron DeSantis, they don't like the political stance here. I mean, one of my neighbors today um said to me, like, oh, Florida is so Republican. And it's like, yeah, but it's also so beautiful. Right. And all the stores are open and the economy is great. I mean, today we went to, well, we've been doing a lot. So we spent a lot of time at the pool. We've been driving the golf cart around, we've been biking. Today we went for this long walk to the beach. I think just from the car to the beach, a little walk along the shore and then back was about a nine 90 minutes, right? Like it was crazy. It was a long walk. It was beautiful. Um the the economy is booming here. The stores are open. I've been every morning trying an iced latte, an iced oat milk latte at a different coffee shop, and then just kind of ranking them. So we went, uh, we spent the evening last night in Bonita. Did we go to dinner last night? I can't remember.
SPEAKER_00:Last night we went, I know for sure. I do remember for sure. Oh, we went to Bohemian. Yeah, we went to Bohemian, which was great on Old 41.
SPEAKER_03:Like little toppas, small plate shareable things. Um, yeah, and then we went to Chartreuse, which is one of our favorite places to go, like an awesome craft cocktail lounge with fabulous mixologists.
SPEAKER_00:And hasn't it been amazing to see um in the last six years how much Bonita Springs has changed?
SPEAKER_03:It used to just be chartreuse, and there's like a small Mexican grocery store next to it, which is going to be interesting to see if that little Mexican grocery store lasts, right? But chartreuse is a craft cocktail lounge with no food. And the Mexican grocery store next door, if you go around the back, they have a window, and there's like an old Mexican woman who sells street tacos out the window. They're like a dollar. Yeah, they're like so cheap. And um, and that used to be the only thing that was there. And because chartreuse doesn't sell food, you could go buy street tacos and bring it into the bar and have a little notch while you drank a cocktail. And now, over the past few years, oh, like next door, a whole food truck area went in, followed by something called the rooftop, which is just a bar that has no food, also. And it's like multi-level, I think. You go to the food trucks and you bring your food into this bar. Last night we went to the Bohemian, which has been there for a couple of years now. And today we went to the canary club and the sugar shack. The sugar shack is this massive music venue, it's huge, right?
SPEAKER_00:Huge, huge, huge. And and and here's the thing is, and like I said, I am we are not political, but we are fact-based and science-based. And all these places are busy, and they're all busy, right? And so when whenever I talk to somebody who's like, oh well, I won't go to Florida, we went to go see Krishna Das on the Upper West Side on Fifth Avenue.
SPEAKER_03:It wasn't on Fifth Avenue, but what was what was it was like way over on like West End Avenue.
SPEAKER_00:It was on the West End Avenue, but there was an avenue there, I think maybe it was Amsterdam. It was Broadway. It was Broadway. Oh, yeah, you're right. It was Broadway. And how many shops on Broadway were closed?
SPEAKER_03:Well, there was no place for us to get a drink before the show. There was no place to get away.
SPEAKER_00:Not one place, no restaurant, everything was closed, everything was shuttered. And this is New York City in 2025, it was. I think it was early.
SPEAKER_03:2024, probably. But that's the problem. Then you come somewhere like this, and they have like every store you can imagine. Bulbs and batteries. My dad, my dad loves bulbs and batteries, but everyone goes shopping here. Yeah. And they go to the stores to buy all the things.
SPEAKER_00:So it's amazing to me how you can crap on the economy and how you can crap. Listen, does Florida have its problems? Absolutely. Does New York have its problems? Absolutely.
SPEAKER_03:We also happen to be right now in a very affluent part of Florida, right? Like Naples, Bonita Springs is very upscale. The housing is used to be the hood, though. Yeah, well, it used to really be nothing. Marco Island, I mean, you can't get a single family home in these places for you know what's what we've paid it, even in New York. And it's but it's amazing. There's so many things to do, and there's so many places to go. And yeah, I mean, it's great. Tomorrow we're gonna go walk another beach in the morning, have another latte. But I'm loving it. I I mean, I do, and I know you're really pushing hard to come here.
SPEAKER_00:I'm not pushing hard to go anywhere. I'm just saying, like, you know, when we retire.
SPEAKER_03:Well, I just want to make a statement that the other day I was in my meditation class. Um when my teacher was saying, we all had our eyes closed, and she said, Maybe, may I be open and receptive. One ear heard me. One of my ears heard you, telling my mother. Okay, while she sang, be open and receptive.
SPEAKER_02:I could hear out of my left ear, I would move here tomorrow if Lindsay said yes.
SPEAKER_03:That's what I heard you say. Yeah, well, we'll figure it out. And then later my mom told me when you were in the other room, Cleve really wants to move down here.
SPEAKER_02:He would come tomorrow if you said yes.
SPEAKER_03:And I was like, I know, I know. But the other thing is that the kid is in state school and she's got like a bargain going on.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, yeah. Well, we have to finish that up, of course.
SPEAKER_03:I can wait. But I do enjoy this weather very much, and I would, I mean, I do want to move to the Caribbean for a few years, but I I will strike a deal with you. I will that if we come and live here, that you take me to the Caribbean for a couple months every year. That I will strike a deal. That works for me. That works for me. But I do, I love it. I love the weather. I mean, 90 degrees and humid is my jam. I know people hate humidity and they're like, Florida's so hot. I love it. You love it, right? Yeah, I I love it.
SPEAKER_00:I want to shout out one of my former co-workers, Eric Buya Serrano, who actually just lost. I think Eric, you lost about 50 pounds. You're 175, um, 175 pounds now. You look great, you look fantastic. But Eric said that Naples, Florida, is one of his favorite places. And I said that's because it's for the grown and sexy, unlike Miami, which is for the children.
SPEAKER_03:Well, and I think it depends. People like different things. The East Coast of Florida for a long time was very popular with New Yorkers. The West Coast is very Midwest. A lot of my parents' neighbors are from Michigan and Wisconsin, and I can't remember where that woman yesterday was from that we met out on the driveway when we couldn't get in the garage, and she asked if we were breaking and entering.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, yeah. She was like, well, she's very friendly. If she didn't call the police, thank God.
SPEAKER_03:But she was like, Yeah, I see you kidding. You know what made me feel really good? She was like, Are you Fran's granddaughter? I was like, No.
SPEAKER_00:I'm her dog.
SPEAKER_03:But I thought I must look young. Yeah, you look good. I mean, I don't have any gray.
SPEAKER_00:No, you don't look in your, you don't look your age at all. I won't say your age, but you look like you're in your early. I'm pushing 50. You look like you're in your early 30s, but it's because I keep you aggravated and I keep you young.
SPEAKER_03:Um you keep me in the Caribbean. I take a lot of vacation.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, listen, like I said, my coworker the other day when I posted one of my endless, not my co-worker, my former colleague from grad school, um, actually hit me up. Um just say her first name, Kelly. Kelly hit me up, she texted me, she was like, Do you even work anymore? Because I've seen you, this is like, I think this is like our fifth trip this year. Probably. I think it is, you know. But I've got no complaints. I'll do a commercial for trusted uh house sitters, right?
SPEAKER_03:Oh my god, we have the let's talk about that just for a second before we get into our episode finally. We so our uh very sadly, I think we talked about this on our last episode. Our pet sitter very tragically lost her fiance in a terrible accident, and um, she had to take some time off. Understandably, she's you know, grieving and really not doing very well. And so we had to join trusted house sitters, which we got from our friends Simon and Miranda, which right is a service that you pay a small fee, and it's small. It's smaller for the year than we paid a sit sitter to watch the pets for one vacation. Oh my god. So, of course, because we live so close to New York City, we have a very desirable location. So we put up our pet sits, and we're getting so many people just reaching out that they would shut it down and be like, you cannot accept any more people. We have the best pet sitter at our house right now. He's from South America. His brother and sister-in-law and his niece and nephew live in Brooklyn, and he's gonna be in New York for a month. So he's he went to visit them for a week, and then he wanted to give them some space with their kids because they probably live in a small space. And he came up and he is having the time of his life at our house. He's biking, he's trying all kinds of food. I think he biked to the Bronx Zoo the other day. Yeah, he took the bike to the Bronx Zoo. I mean, he is just enjoying it so much, and he's wonderful. He keeps texting me pictures of the pets, and I'm like, all right, I know they're fine, I don't even care about that. Just like it house is good, all right. And you text him and he just responds and he's just taking care of everything, and he said he's loving it.
SPEAKER_00:Listen, if the pets, and you know how I feel about the pets, I don't want to alienate any. I I went to dinner the other night and alienated one of my friends uh because I was like uh talking about not being a willing dog owner. But I think I would keep trusted house sitters, even if all the pets were gone, because it is a convenient way to have folks watch your home, right? It's really great, it's really great. He, you know, he's enjoying the home and it's reciprocal because you've been looking at a few places and maybe Prescott. Yeah, I'm not pet sitting for anybody, but anyway. Well, yeah, but it's a it's a good opportunity.
SPEAKER_03:I prefer hotels.
SPEAKER_00:Okay.
SPEAKER_03:Uh no, because I like to do what I like to do when I'm on vacation. But this is a really good thing for us, and it's working out really well.
SPEAKER_00:It is working out really, really well. But that that being said, let's just jump into the topic. And so, Lindsay, what are we so so what I have here is saying yes is is to what is an antidote to suffering. So tell me more, or or if I'd misquoted it, tell me more uh uh about this particular topic.
SPEAKER_03:Well, what we're gonna be talking about is tackling the common and draining habit of the human mind. So this constant and subtle habit of saying no. So we're not talking about saying no, like I was saying earlier, to a party invitation or to somebody who wants to go out and you don't feel like it. What we're talking about is that we're constantly saying no to our own feelings. So understanding this can be like a game changer for your emotional well-being. So there's this habit of saying no. So we're wired to not like unpleasant experiences. And so we resist what's unpleasant. And then we have this survival mechanism, right? And our brain interprets these things as negative. So our automatic response is to kind of push away, reject the experience, and say no.
SPEAKER_00:What's a what's a way for folks to notice their own no moments in their lives? Like how can they notice?
SPEAKER_03:Well, when do you feel unpleasant, right? What do you feel in your body? Does your heart start racing? Do your eyes start welling up? Do you get this sensation across your chest, right? A common one for me is that when I hear something that I don't like to hear about myself, sometimes I hear it from you, and my eyes will well up, right? I'll get a sensation across my chest of this kind of like heaviness or this feeling of sadness that kind of just moves across me.
SPEAKER_00:I had someone reach out to me the other day that was kind of having like one of these moments. And I I'm not aversed in in either breath work or anything like you. Um, so I I had to really I had to go Google some stuff and I said, hey, you know, here's some stuff to check out. But what are some breath works or some meditations maybe someone can do in this moment when they're having one of these experiences?
SPEAKER_03:Well, it's really about just letting it be, which we'll kind of get into a little bit later, right? But we want to just be able to sit with things and just start to tolerate the unpleasant feelings because that's the key, right? To understanding that, you know, it's okay, we can move through these things. Just because we have an unpleasant experience or something negative happens in our lives doesn't mean that we need to continue to suffer as a result of it.
SPEAKER_00:Now, I've read a lot of books over the last year. Even one of my clients said to me I know you have. Even one of my clients said to me the other day, was like, Boy, you love to quote them. Yeah, well, one of my clients quoted me out the other day and was like, Oh my god, how do you have time? She was like, I actually envy you because you have a lot of time. Well, you listen to Audible. Yes, I listen to Audible while I'm working out, while I'm driving and and whatnot. And so that's that's my cheat code. But one of the So that's actually a really good use of your time. Yeah, and I got that from Jordan Harbinger, who said that he himself is busy and was like, hey, you should have to do it. I can't even figure out how to work that audible thing. I'll show you. I don't know why, but but I want to to to to ask uh go go into our second part, which is the habit of no. And I want you to explain the why is it that we're resistant to to saying no? Like, why is it we're are we resistant to these to these to these experiences and to negative experiences.
SPEAKER_03:Well, I was just talking about that because it makes us feel unpleasant. We get into this loop of thinking, right? It's an unpleasant feeling, it's tension, it's suffering, and we don't know an alternative to it. So we don't like it.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah. And so what I was gonna say, and many of the books I've read, and I've read a lot of audible, oh well, let me let me take it back. And many of the books I've listened to over the last year, and I've listened to about five to six to seven books, I would say, probably more like seven or eight, all of them have this thing in in common that we do not like painful experiences. And sometimes a painful experience, like Philippians 2.12 says, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, is the only way for growth. Um, Tara Brock says this, and I want you to expand on this. The pain of life is inevitable, the suffering is optional. What did Tara Brock mean by?
SPEAKER_03:Right. So she talks about this metaphor of two arrows, right? The first arrow is initial pain of life, disappointment, loss, a physical ache. It's inevitable. We all get hit by that. Those things are gonna happen. We're gonna lose people, we're going to have breakups, we're going to have things happen to us in our lives that are not positive. And the second is the one that we shoot ourselves. So then we start to tell ourselves a story about the pain, the resistance, the effort to make it go away. That's the habit of no. It's doing whatever you can do to avoid that suffering and pain.
unknown:Right.
SPEAKER_00:And so, why is it that people and so kind of what it sounds like you're saying is that in trying to minimize their suffering and pain, is people actually prolong it by avoiding it.
SPEAKER_03:Well, because what's going to happen, right? We were talking about this today with some of the kids is that when you have something negative to happen and you don't sit with it and you don't let it be and you don't heal, it constantly resurfaces and comes up in other ways. Right? So we will the same, the same feeling, the same emotion, the same unpleasantness is gonna come up when we have another experience that's negative.
SPEAKER_00:So give me an example of that second arrow, right? And so, say for instance, like a couple of years ago, my dad died, right? And it was a very painful experience for for everyone in the family. Um, what would be a second arrow in that case of trying to uh of that? What would be the second you've lost somebody unexpectedly, or maybe you had a breakup that was sudden?
SPEAKER_03:Well, so you know, something that might come up for you would be like a negative thought about like maybe I could have done something differently, right? I could have made me made that person not die, or if I just did this, then this person wouldn't have broken up with me, right? We kind of play this game in our mind where we're constantly, you know, kind of creating this story of the what if. Well, what if I did this instead? Maybe it wouldn't have happened, right? And we cause ourselves all this mental anguish. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:I I like that point because I I I worked with once with someone who felt very, very guilty um about their parent dying, and the parent was like almost like almost 90 years old. And they were like, Well, I wasn't there and I was gone and I was, you know, and I wasn't there at the moment that they died. And I was like, here's the thing your parent was 87, right? Did they have a good run? I had an excellent run.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Do they have a good life? Did you have a good relationship? Right?
SPEAKER_03:Well, Gabor Mate talks about this, and he says that we can't prevent people from dying. Right. So we even if we put our entire life on hold to sit at the bedside of someone who is ill and who's going to pass away, right? Or even someone, maybe you have a person in your life. I think one of the uh people he was talking to was a woman who had a sibling who was suicidal and had caused a lot of problems, and there had been a lot of issues with the law and a lot of issues in other areas of life. And this sibling had asked to come and live with the person, and she said no. And then later on, the sibling killed herself. And he said, Listen, if she was in that much mental pain, would she have still died? Like, yes. She would have still done this. She just didn't do it in your house now, right? And so we have to realize that when people are in pain and people are suffering or people are going to die, they're gonna die whether or not we are there with them or not.
SPEAKER_00:There's certain things that you do not need to inflict, like say a breakup, right? And I've and we've worked with a lot of people who who are in top, we're hey in and I think our next episode is gonna be ladies kick them to the curb. Yeah. Um, and we've worked with a lot of people. We met somebody today, um, lovely young lady and um in the canary. Where were we at today? The canary club. The canary club, who was in a toxic relationship and was like, you know, it took her roommates to get her out of that, right? But you said her mom also. Yeah, you have to understand, right, that you do not need to hit yourself that second arrow.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Right? The people are gonna, the people in your life were gonna die. The I the I'm trying not to curse, keeping this.
SPEAKER_03:Well, we can't prevent things from happening, right? Is what I'm saying, right? We don't have the control to prevent things from happening. We have so little control over most things in life.
SPEAKER_00:Right, right. So, what is, if you have one available, is there a guided exercise or visualization that you that you can that you can let's talk a little bit about how this like kind of habit of no shows up in our lives.
SPEAKER_03:Right. Right. And it's this, and this is what I talk to clients about all the time. It's this kind of endless scrolling, like doom scrolling, watching TV, reading a book, never being able to just be and be quiet. Right. Right. That's where it shows up in our lives. Um, you know, and in a present moment internal experience, what I work with a lot of my clients on is just letting it be, sitting and being quiet and letting those things happen. And often when they come back the next week, they'll be like, I tried it and all I could do was cry. And it's like, yeah, because you were sitting there and allowing yourself to feel the unpleasant things, right? And so that is a practice, right? And we've talked about rain many times, and rain is a practice that you can do with this, but you just have to sit and let things be within yourself without trying to control it or fix it or fight it. Just like drop the argument with reality. The reality is you feel crappy. So, yes, it's it's acknowledging that. And in doing so, stop shooting that second arrow. Yeah, stop trying to control it. You know what? This is an unpleasant experience. It is inevitable, as we said earlier. And so let's just let it be.
SPEAKER_00:I I can remember going back to my first wife when I found out she cheated on me and cheated on me with multiple people, not just with one person, but was just like just out there just doing whatever. Is, and this happens to to a lot of people, is like you hit yourself with second, the third, the fourth, the fifth, the sixth, the seventh, the eighth, the ninth, the tenth arrow, and you're wondering like you're sitting there, right?
SPEAKER_03:You're blaming yourself. What am I doing wrong? What could I do to control this? Maybe it's maybe I'm not a great partner, and that's why she's doing this, but instead, she just needs to sit there with her own pain and her own unpleasant experiences and figure out why it is that I need to go somewhere else. Because that's that distraction, that numbing out. Let me go and have sex with a hundred people.
SPEAKER_00:Right.
SPEAKER_03:Right?
SPEAKER_00:Right. And and and that's what we do constantly in many things. Like, what could I have done differently? What should I have done? You know, somebody dies unexpectedly, somebody, you know, gets sick. Um, we our relationship ends, and oftentimes people sit there and it and they can't accept the reality that their re I I can't remember who it was. I think it might have been in Jonathan Hayde's book, or it might have been Jason Pargin said, or even Gabor Mate said, that the biggest problem is that people cannot accept that their reality has changed, right? And that is that second arrow. Hey, I was married. It there's a great movie.
SPEAKER_03:Well, that's an unpleasantness, right? And that's why people stay in horrible relationships for way too long. Because, oh, well, maybe I just deserve this. Oh, if I just do this, this person will change, right? It's like you sit there, and like I was saying earlier, you have this kind of mental game that you play with yourself.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, there's a great movie, great book, and one of the quotes from is a book called Cloud Atlas, and it was a movie uh by the Wachowski Sisters now, um, from the uh, I think it was the late two or early 2000s, and Halle Berry's in it. But one of the trailers from the movie is one one minute my life was going in direction, in one direction, and suddenly it was in another. And this that happens to all of us at some point or another. Perfect. And I think what happens is what you're talking about is people don't want to accept that my reality has shifted in a major way, that this person is dead, this relationship is over, this job is done, and they hang on. That second arrow is hanging on to the thing that is changing.
SPEAKER_03:We were just talking about this in the car when we were driving back here today, right? Is that what is the thing that keeps people from changing, the number one thing, and it's fear, right? And so if you sit and you acknowledge and you let things be, it's scary because then you may have to make a choice that you don't want to make.
SPEAKER_00:So let's move on to our next part, which is the power of yes, dropping the inner inner war. So I'm gonna ask you a question, and this is directly tied to what we were just talking to. Yep. Is saying yes to a new reality, to a new situation, condoning what is happening, or is it simply acknowledging that things have changed?
SPEAKER_03:Well, saying yes is just letting it be there, allowing all of those things to be there. Maybe it will change, maybe it won't change. I don't know, depending on the situation. But it's essentially ending that inner war with yourself, right? Like, and don't fight it, just let it be.
SPEAKER_00:Right, right. Um, can you tell me the difference between, and maybe you maybe you know, maybe you don't know, that what is the difference between fixing a problem or understanding or holding or holding or understanding that your reality is changed?
SPEAKER_03:Well, fixing is how can I make it go away, right? You know, what what do I need to do to change this versus can I just let this be here? Right? It's already here. So what do I need to do to just allow it to be?
SPEAKER_00:Right, right, right, right. You know, it's uh in the DSM, you and I were talking about it. We were talking about somebody who is a friend of ours who's who whose pet died what a long time ago.
SPEAKER_03:A long time ago.
SPEAKER_00:It was a long time ago, and they have not accepted the reality that the pet is dead. It's like 18 months, right? And the DSM actually has a new uh because grief is normal, right? It's normal or grieve. Of course it is. It's normal to grieve a lost relationship, right? Right. It's normal or grieve a lost parent or a lost child. I always say grieve the way things used to be, right? But the DSM has said that prolonged grief is actually something that is not healthy.
SPEAKER_03:You have a lot of thoughts about that because it's almost like uh you don't know how to just be with yourself, right? Right, and you can't find any joy or anything anywhere else. It's almost a level of severe codependence, right?
SPEAKER_00:Right. And and so it's like people frequently live in the past and not their new reality. Like they don't want to say yes to their new reality, even though the new reality might not be comfortable.
SPEAKER_03:Right. Well, people do that all the time because it like I was saying a few minutes ago, is that this piece of fear, right? So much of what we experience and try to do is fear-based. And so if we don't, if we just stay in the status quo, oh, it's fine, it's okay, but it's not great. But it pays the bills and I've got the medical benefits and it's stable, right? And then and the other side of it is let me actually do something different that really feeds my soul, that I'm really content with, that takes fear because what if it doesn't work out? What if I can't do this? What if this happens? And so we stay, like I was saying earlier, again, in that mental space of just allowing things to stay and be, instead of actually saying, like, oh, like maybe I can sit with this and try something different that might work better.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, one of my colleagues used to call that being a prisoner of comfort, in that people would rather stay in their old reality that that was comfortable than for for them than their new reality, which is which is scary.
SPEAKER_03:Right. And that distraction is the, oh, but I have this and I can pay the bills and I do this and I get all these things from it. But what they're avoiding, right, is that actual sitting with what's there and just letting those unpleasant feelings be. Because I think when you can learn to sit with the unpleasant, right, and you are an ex you are an example of this, right? From leaving a corporate career, when you could sit and just be and make the change, it was very scary for you, right? Oh, yeah, yeah. But look at your life now on the other side of that.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah. And well, I've we've been on like five, six vacations this year. The scariest thing about change is the change itself, right? And I will say this is a lot of people, and I've worked with a lot of people that are stuck in what was, and because they were stuck in what was and are unwilling to accept what is, they are not moving forward in any way, right? Right. They're crying over a past that no longer exists and unwilling to accept their future that is here now. Right, absolutely. And so, what I'm gonna talk to as we get to our final part is from doing to being, what is radical acceptance in daily life?
SPEAKER_03:What what what is radical acceptance is just actually realizing that some things cannot be fixed, right? They can't go away, and they just they're there. Right. Right. I mean, that's literally what it is.
SPEAKER_00:So when facing a disappointment, I've lost this job, I've lost this relationship, I've lost my partner, I've lost my child, I've lost, you know, I lost. I lost the lottery and I was expecting to win. What can a person do to soften that blow?
SPEAKER_03:Just allow yourself to feel. Allow the sensations, the emotions, the energy to be there. Stop resisting. Just let it be. And this is a hard thing for a lot of people because I do have a lot of clients who don't believe in this concept that I believe in that when one thing ends, there's probably a reason and there's something else there for you. And I was talking about this with a recently with a client who was struggling with a living situation and she didn't want to go back home and she didn't want to say no to possible roommates because she didn't want to hurt their feelings. And I was like, so you should just go live in an apartment that you don't like in a place you don't like because you might upset that person. And now, fast forward a month, she's like, Oh, I actually found my own place and I'm really excited about it. And I signed the lease and I'm moving in, right? And so it's like you find that when you allow these things to just be there and you stop trying to tighten the reins on them, that a lot of times what happens on the other side of it is actually something better.
SPEAKER_00:So I want to ask you a question. So how does acceptance, right, of a of a terrible thing actually loosen the grip of suffering?
SPEAKER_03:Well, because it's you're like letting go. You're not trying to control the outcome. You're saying, Oh, I, you know what, this doesn't feel good for me right now. I feel terrible. I'm crying. This is hard. This sucks. It hurts. But you're actually experiencing the emotions. So while it's very painful and difficult and unpleasant in that moment, when you come out on the other side of it, it's great, right? I think an example I gave you today was I've been on this weight loss journey this year. And, you know, I have started to realize that, you know, I've done very well. I've lost about 40 pounds. And the thing that I started doing, I think I told you today, was I stopped negotiating with myself. And I started to set these kind of non-negotiable, like I'm not negotiating with myself. And I I think what did I say to you this morning? The the line that I I was using was like that when when I stopped doing this, like I realized that. Do you remember what I how I put it exactly?
SPEAKER_00:Um I've had a couple of drinks. Oh dear. Lord. But I remember, no, no, no. I'm just playing while I had it.
SPEAKER_03:Because it was the reason I wanted to say it the way I said it was because of it. Was like, I think I said, okay, I found it. All right. So I said that like I have all of the benefits and none of the negative self-talk. That is what you say. Right. All of the benefits and none of the negative self-talk since I stopped negotiating with myself. And like and a perfect example this morning was I got my iced latte. I love an I love an oat milk latte. If it's hot, I want it iced. If it's cold, I want it warm. I absolutely, you know me, I love an oat milk latte, and I will go to all ends of the earth to find a really good one. And so we pull up at this beach, and you know, I still have weight to lose. We pull up at this beach, and I'm like, oh my God. This from the parking lot, the sign literally read Gulf of Mexico 0.42 miles with an arrow. And I was like, shit.
SPEAKER_00:You mean Gulf of America?
SPEAKER_03:Well, it said Gulf of Mexico. America. And then you said, How haven't they changed that yet?
unknown:Right.
SPEAKER_03:But I said, like, oh my God, this thing is like a half a mile from the car. And I could have, like, in my head, I said, I want to turn around. I want to turn around. I want to turn around. Because when you're overweight, moving is not easy. Right. And I was like, all right, I'm just gonna do, I'm not gonna say, and I didn't say anything to you. I was having this internal struggle in my head. So I just took my latte and I walked to the beach and I walked at my own pace. And you know, we walked a couple of miles and we came back. And you know what? There was no regret when I got back to the car. None. And had I sat there and negotiated with myself and said, oh my God, I'm not walking a half a mile down to the beach. Later in the day, I would have criticized myself. I would have engaged in all this negative self-talk. And so I don't negotiate with myself anymore. And I have all the benefits of it. I got a great walk-in. I feel sore now. It was not an easy walk. It was in the sand. And but now I got all the benefits of it too, right? Because now I've done my exercise for the day and I'm a big believer in like if I move, then it's like okay on vacation for me to have a couple of cocktails. But if I don't move, then I don't do it, right? Another thing I set out for in January is like I don't eat fried food. So like if anybody ever asks me if I want french fries with that, the answer is just no. It's an automatic. There's no more negotiation. Because if I say yes, I'm just gonna have a few, I'll eat half of them. Then later I'm criticizing myself. And so it's just getting comfortable with this like, don't negotiate with yourself. Just set your intention and be really intentional about what you're doing.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. I think one of the hardest things for people, it's funny because people are both adaptable and yet they're not at the same time. And people are very nostalgic and yet they are not at the same time. Uh, one of my favorite movies is Napoleon Dynamite. And Napoleon's, if I remember the movie correctly, Napoleon's older brother was trying to invent a time machine so that he could go back to high school because those are his glory days. Not understanding that you have the potential for future glory, right? One of the reasons why you've decided to unfriend a lot of folks on Facebook is because Donald Trump is the president of the United States. It is what it is, right? Eric Adams is the mayor of New York City. It is what it is. Yet you have people that have been unable over the last couple of years. Gavin Newsom is the cali president, is the governor of California. Kathy Hogel is the governor of New York. Ron DeSantis is the governor of Florida. This is the reality of what it is. Yet you have people who will go on social media and will rail against all the things that are and act like that they're railing, they're complaining, they're their vitriol against it is actually doing anything except upsetting themselves.
SPEAKER_03:Well, you and I were talking about this this morning when we were observing how many businesses were open. Right. You know, sure. I mean, like, we could sit here and get in a battle about politicians and their unethical behavior, but quite frankly, aren't most politicians, if not 100% of them, very unethical and toxic. Right. And so, like, we can we can sit here and talk about it and and boycott Florida and everything, or we can actually enjoy all that Florida has to offer, which is that I can have an iced latte in a different location every day, and it costs about a quarter of as much as New York. I mean, I'm paying like$4 for a large iced oat milk latte, and I pay like 11 bucks at home.
SPEAKER_00:One of my favorite clients, he's a he's a young man from Harlem, has told me that one of the things that he has learned in his life is he stays away from people who complain about the status quo, right? He was like, he said he remembers when he were first went to his job and somebody who's who's a cleaner there has been a cleaner there for 15 years and was complaining about and he's like, Yeah, then he asked the dude, he's like, How long have you been cleaning here? 15 years. And what and and what position do you have? Oh, I still got the same one from when I first started. And he's like, you know what? I'm not talking to you. I'm gonna go on. And this person has been a has been where he's at. Well, if you don't like it, change it. And he's changed it. He has moved on to a higher position where he found out that he could become a surgical assistant and talk to some other folks at the job that used to be cleaners who was like, yo, man, you don't have to stay, you don't have to stay a cleaner. You could change your fate.
SPEAKER_03:Of course you can, but you're the one who gets to do that by acknowledging the unpleasant, sitting with it, and then loosening the reins and saying, you know, there's certain things that I can't control, but then there are other things that I can, right? It's almost like like opening a clenched fist. Think about yourself when you're really angry, right? Your body tenses up, you're tight, you clench your fist, your jaw clenches. But instead, like, what if you just opened it up and allowed all that to be there? Like, allow the tension to be there, allow the heart racing heart or the tightness in your chest to be there, allow your breath to be rapid. Right. Because that's often the answer to your healing. And when you allow yourself to experience that and stop fighting it, then it passes. You can create a new reality. Right, you do, and you and you're no longer being fueled by your resistance because that's where anger and all this negativity comes from.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Now, there's some circumstances where you can't create a new reality, right? But you can, you know, you have terminal cancer. There's nothing you can do about that, right?
SPEAKER_03:No, but you know what? Let's talk about that just for a minute because there's someone in my meditation training who has prostate cancer, and I was telling you, and he went on a retreat and he was talking this week in the class about how he realized that, like, the prostate cancer may not even be what kills him. And he's like, you know, I'm okay. I could have a car accident next week and die. Right. I could be walking my dog and someone can veer off the road and hit me and I can die. He's like, There's any number of things that can happen to me that could kill me that are not the cancer. And he said in that moment, he realized that he's actually okay.
unknown:Right.
SPEAKER_00:What are you going to do with the time remaining, right? And that is the question. So when you have something disappointing happen to you in your life, and we've talked about this in group supervision, it's yes, this was a sucky, terrible, tragic thing that happened to you, but you got 30%.
SPEAKER_03:Well, you can let it consume you.
SPEAKER_00:Yes.
SPEAKER_03:And you can clench your fists, and you can sit and stay in that state and never let go of it, and you can be angry and you can be mad and you can treat people horribly, or you can say, like, hmm, okay, you know what? I don't really have any skin in this game, so I can just let it be here.
SPEAKER_00:So, in closing, as we reach the end, it sounds like the core message of what you're saying in this episode is that suffering ends when we stop fighting against the thing that already is. Absolutely. Okay. And and so I think uh uh uh uh affirmation is this moment belongs, this feeling is allowed, and I can meet these feelings with love. And I want to say that one more time.
SPEAKER_03:Right. And Tara Brock says, and she says it to herself, I'm going to be okay. Right. It's going to be okay. And and that's another thing that you and I have talked a lot about as we wrap up. When we can allow those things to be and realize that we do have crappy experiences in life too, and we can then normalize anxiety and depression, and then we have like so much less of a mental health crisis on our hands. But we are taught that having these feelings and things being unpleasant is just not okay.
SPEAKER_00:Right. And it goes all back because I love Jason Pargin. Jason Pargin has a TikTok video from the other from a couple of weeks ago that is like we live in a society that has taught us that the worst thing that you can be is depressed and anxious. Of course. But here's the world that we live in. There is a lot of stuff to be pressed and anxious about. And as Gabor Mate says, it is not healthy to be well adjusted in a toxic world, right? And so what Jason Pargin and Gabor Mate and Jack Canfield and Tara Brock and Mel Robbins and many other Jim Rome and many other thinkers that you can think of is yes, Jim Rome says, there's how many times a year does winter come, Lindsay? Once. Once does winter always come?
SPEAKER_03:Well, it always comes, yes. Yes, and it may not feel the same every year, but it comes.
SPEAKER_00:But it comes. So Jim Rome says, always be prepared for winter, right? Always be prepared that there's something terrible, tragic, awful is going to happen in all of our lives. And you can't let that terri terrible, tragic, awful thing be the thing that takes you off. There is no one, there is no one on planet Earth today that is has a life that has not had one dark tragedy in it. I would guarantee help me find that person. Absolutely, right? Absolutely. But Jim Rome says, always prepare for winter. So know that winter's always gonna come, right? And acceptance, and I want to ask you this question is acceptance approval? Is it saying, like, wow, this is great that this terrible thing happened to me?
SPEAKER_03:No, but it's saying, but it did. So what do I need to do now?
SPEAKER_00:And so, what is shifting your reality? Help how does how does that help somebody who's had a traumatic or had a terrible thing or had a disappointment?
SPEAKER_03:Well, it helps you to accept it and realize that that's not always the way it's gonna be, and the next situation may not be that way.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I just want to give one last example because I think I I think you once worked with a person that had a job, had um something terrible. They they felt like 13, 15 years ago, they had something happen to them at work that they were stuck on. Um lawsuit after lawsuit, you know, uh lawsuit after lawsuit, you know, they they felt that the other people got away with what they were doing um at the job, and it just was something that they became upset with, that it had actually bled over into their marriage. That they were like, Well, I used to be, I used to work at this job in law enforcement, and everybody else got away with it, but I tried to do the same thing and I got nailed to the wall.
SPEAKER_03:And this is something that was going back 50, many years ago. Right, and and and the person has allowed it to control their entire life. Yes, absolutely, yes, and has not moved on, has not gotten another career, has not taken another job, and just sits in the misery day after day after day after day, blaming everybody else.
SPEAKER_00:Right, and a lot of us, that that person's an extreme is not necessarily an extreme example. Because a lot of us get sucked. Well, that's what people do, right?
SPEAKER_03:They get sucked into this whole woe is me, I'm the victim mentality. And the only way that you can ever shift out of that is if you decide that I'm tired of being the victim, I need to do something different. Because at the end of the day, this individual, right, had no control over that, still has no control over it, but still hasn't moved on. Right. So why not look for something else? Maybe you're going to find something that's even more fulfilling that you love even more.
SPEAKER_00:I I I I like to thank the ghost of Papa Cleve, uh, of Grandpa Cleve, um, who encouraged me to love again because I had a terrible relationship with my last wife. Hurtful. I'm sorry, as painful as as as as painful as pain can be. I wanted to die. I literally wanted to die. And so when people come to me um with suicide and feeling terrible about themselves and feeling I get it. I get it. Right. I I work with I work with multiple people right now. I work with somebody right now who's tried to kill themselves several times, and I get it. I understand it. But what Papa Cleve told me, right? Well, Grandpa Cleve, I'm Papa Cleve. I I forget that that that the queen mum that calls me Papa Cleve. But what Grandpa Cleve told me is you can't let one bad experience with one person or one situation now determine determine the rest of your life. He was like Cleveland, you have to let that animosity go, you have to let that anger go, you have to accept this bad thing that happened to you, this bad, humiliating, terrible thing that happened to you, you have to let it go, and you have to let love in your life again.
SPEAKER_03:Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_00:And that's how and that's how I found you.
SPEAKER_03:I love you. Even in my menopause when I'm very tired.
SPEAKER_00:Oh boy. Woo! You've been, you've been, you've been out of control this week, but I love you very much. But that being said, I certainly have no control over my emotions. You have been out of control. But that being said, I think uh a closing note is a shifting from fixing to allowing, right? This is a thing I cannot change. This is something I must endure until I get to the next junction because all these things are temporary.
SPEAKER_03:Right. You have to, yeah. And and the thing is, it is, you're right, it's temporary. And you also just don't know what lies ahead, right? And so you could sit there and you can miss out on every opportunity and every good thing that's going to come next because you chose to keep those clenched fists.
SPEAKER_00:And I've seen, and the craziest thing is you and I, both in our personal and professional lives, have seen people miss every, and I'm gonna curse for a second because it drives me crazy, miss every goddamn opportunity that's come their way because they're stuck in something that happened 15, 20, 30, 30 years ago. Like you're still here. Right, right. But here's what life has given you, and you are still rejecting it because you are back here with an old hurt and an old pain and an old wound that you have allowed to consume you because you are still wishing for what once was and are not willing to accept what is. That is true. I think that's a good place to wrap up. Let the choir say amen. Um, but if you got nothing else, what are we gonna talk about next week?
SPEAKER_02:I think ladies kick him to the curb.
SPEAKER_00:Ladies kick him to the curb. I think we got a lot, we got a lot of that. But you know, this was been a really good topic for me. I really appreciate you um bringing this one up because it is something that I personally have struggled with, and it's something that I've let go because I've been like one of my favorite um, I can't remember who it was, said humans either live in the past that is unchangeable or the future that's unknowable, but they are very rarely present. Where? Here and now. Here and now, right? And I think that's a good spot to.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, Ram Das wrote a book called Be Here Now. Be here now. You should actually read it. Yeah, one day. Because that is a complaint I have about you. You're very rarely in the moment, you're always on to the next thing. Well, yeah, well, gotta make that money, gotta make that paper. But but this has been Cleveland and Lindsay.
SPEAKER_00:And this has been another episode of The Devil You Don't Know.
