The Devil You Don’t Know

Undoing the Us vs. Them: The Trap of Toxic Othering

• Lindsay Oakes

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Lindsay and Cleveland dive into the concept of toxic othering and how it affects our relationships and society at large, exploring practical ways to bridge divides through mindfulness and self-awareness.

• The problem of "othering" creates division between groups based on race, religion, politics, and personal beliefs
• Why we judge and isolate others: learned behaviors from childhood and society
• How othering creates two prisons - one for the "othered" and one for those doing the othering
• The damage caused by dehumanizing people with different beliefs or backgrounds
• The RAIN technique (Recognize, Allow, Investigate, Nurture) as a tool for working with judgment
• Why understanding isn't necessary - respect is what matters most
• Approaching differences with genuine curiosity rather than judgment
• Examining where our judgments come from and what they reveal about our own wounds
• Resources for deeper exploration: Tara Brach's "Radical Compassion" and Jack Kornfield's work
• The importance of self-connection as the foundation for connecting with others

Love is the answer - both self-love and love for others is the only thing that will bridge the gap between all the "others" we create.


Please email us at Gettoknowthedevil@gmail.com

Cleveland Oakes:

This is Cleveland.

Lindsay Oakes:

And this is Lindsay.

Cleveland Oakes:

And this is another episode of The Devil You Don't Know. Lindsay, this is another one that you wrote, conceived, and picked out. What are we going to be talking about today?

Lindsay Oakes:

Undoing the us versus them. A trap of toxic othering.

Cleveland Oakes:

That is a mouthful, and I think it is very um significant.

Lindsay Oakes:

I think especially right now with what's been happening in the world.

Cleveland Oakes:

Yeah. Yeah. So is that what made you think of this particular one?

Lindsay Oakes:

Yeah, that and I was listening to something for um in the Power of Awareness course that I have access to. And Tara Brock was talking about the fact that humans create hierarchies and it causes this divide. And we have to learn to kind of bridge the gap between different people, different groups of people, different religions, different ethnicities, different races. Um, you know, and that we've fallen into this trap of really isolating other people.

Cleveland Oakes:

Yeah, I like I like that a lot. The Terence Real kind of touches on the same thing in us, uh, even though it's about couples, um, he really goes back and think and talks about this idea of individuality and othering and how we bring it into our relationships and we ruin our relationships because of that. But before we get to this main topic, anything you want to catch the folks up on uh on the life of Lindsay and Cleve?

Lindsay Oakes:

Well, what have we been up to lately? We've been doing a lot of biking. It's been fantastic up in the Hudson Valley. Um the first time we did it, I I did take us to that trail accidentally.

Cleveland Oakes:

The wrong trail.

Lindsay Oakes:

That was um the advanced trail.

Cleveland Oakes:

The super advanced trail.

Lindsay Oakes:

I I might have pulled off the path briefly and shed a few tears before I pulled my big girl pants back up and got on the bike and got my heart rate down and kept going. But um, it's been great. It's really been very nice. We've been doing a lot of getting out of the city.

Cleveland Oakes:

Yeah, this weekend we're moving the young man. Well, hopefully, if all goes well, we're moving the young man out this week, which is exciting for all of us, except I think for the young man and his father.

Lindsay Oakes:

Well, it's time. It's time for him to learn how to grow up. He had a little period of time when he was not living with us, and it was very nice. I've also taken up sourdough baking.

Cleveland Oakes:

Yes.

Lindsay Oakes:

Um, which all of you are benefiting from.

Cleveland Oakes:

Oh, that's have been some good ass bread. Mm-hmm. Yeah, we gave some to Lori and David yesterday, and I'm sure if you asked her this morning, that I think you should just brand it good ass bread. Yeah. And some sad news we found that our favorite uh bed and breakfast that the owners, Simon and Miranda, have decided to sell the black sheet.

Lindsay Oakes:

I think they sold it already.

Cleveland Oakes:

They sold it. They sold it right from out underneath of us. But I talked to Simon the other day, they're really excited about going home. Uh, Simon and I might work on our project. He's really looking forward to doing it. He said he's got the studio space, uh, transatlantic space, so we might be working on our own uh podcast project pretty soon. I won't say the name of it so that folks won't steal it. Um but Simon is also recording his uh upcoming album with Swill.

Lindsay Oakes:

That's right, that's right. So, and we actually have a trip planned up there, so it'll be interesting to see um the new owners because we booked a a trip to see the Queen Mom up at college and decided that we would stay there.

Cleveland Oakes:

Okay, so with that being said, that's where we've been at. Sorry, we we try to do these things weekly and we got to get back to it. There's some really interesting things that have happened in the world. You all live in the world, so you know what those interesting things are that we would have loved to have spoken about, but you know what? We'll still speak about them and we'll get to them because I think we're still feeling the after effects of a lot of of what's happened recently.

Lindsay Oakes:

I think so. I'm also, you know, in the uh early stages of menopause and it's been pretty awful. I feel tired all the time and I have hot flashes. I could be sitting in a room just sweating, even though the room is not hot. Right. Right now I'm sitting in front of the air conditioner. You've been sleeping with a snuggy on.

Cleveland Oakes:

Well, you got it bricked out in here. I think you sent me a video the other day. It was like a guy in like a winter coat, and he's like, I'm so cold. And his wife is like, it's hot in here.

Lindsay Oakes:

That's how it's been around here.

Cleveland Oakes:

So that is definitely how it's been about here. But let's get started. Um, this idea, the the title of this episode is The Undoing of the Us versus Them, The Trap of Toxic Othering. Um, I think there's a problem in Terry Terrence Real, Terry Real really talks about it in the final chapters of Us, where two people are talking. And instead of two people talking and actually engaging in conversation, the other person is thinking, why doesn't this person understand that what I'm saying is right? And I think a summary of, in my opinion, a summary, and I'll let you give your own summary of what this toxic othering is, is believing inherently that our positions or what we feel or what we believe or our truth is more important than the truth of other people or other people's cultures or other people's backgrounds or other people's countries or how even they were raised as a family.

Lindsay Oakes:

Correct. And I think that people think their way is the only way or the right way. And we talked about it in my mindfulness training. One of the things that we've touched on quite often is that we constantly have judgments and opinions about others. Right? Walk, even just walking down the street, we're judging people's hair, their shoes, what they're wearing, what they're doing, what they're saying, who they are, what they look like. And we've been taught to do that.

Cleveland Oakes:

Yeah. And I think when you see um one of the things Terry Real talks about is neither above nor below. And we should never think that we're above anybody, but we should also recognize that we're not beneath anybody either. And also the same, vice versa. Like we should never accept someone who thinks they're superior than us, or we should never encourage someone who believes they're beneath us. That we should all realize that our opinions are all valid, our experiences are all valid, and all of our traumas, right? You know, I talked to somebody the other day who is who has the same trauma as a person that I've worked with that has been sexually assaulted. And it's the same trauma, like the same. And even though the the extent of that person, what's whatever is haunting that person is not the same as the person that's been sexually assaulted, I would say that the shame that the feelings that they both have are equal, equally so, right?

Lindsay Oakes:

Right. Well, we say that trauma is not the actual event, but it's what happens to you as a result of the event. So that would make sense. We can take the same negative thought patterns and negative core beliefs from two completely different situations.

Cleveland Oakes:

So I want to ask you a question. If we all have the same traumas and if all of our traumas are valid and if all of our experiences are valid, we don't all have the same traumas, but similar. I know you know what I meant. Like similar trauma. If all of our let's let me correct that sentence. If all of our traumas impact us the same, no matter the severity of the trauma, why is it that people have an instinct to other each other? Why do you think it is?

Lindsay Oakes:

Well, I was talking with a couple about this the other day. We don't, for some reason, this is my this is how I perceive it, and this is what I believe is that people think that they, you know, have to understand everything about the other person. And so when you don't understand the way that someone else lives, their beliefs, their thoughts, you, you know, it becomes an issue because it's it's not really about understanding, it's about respecting. And that's something I talk with with clients about often. You don't have to understand why someone feels the way that they do, or why they believe in the things that they believe in. But you have to just respect that that's their experience.

Cleveland Oakes:

There's there's a lot of things that have happened in these past couple of weeks that have re-energized the conversation on free speech, and have re-energized the conversation on do I have the right to express my ideas and do I have the right to say everything that I feel. So I want to ask you, um, when you're and one of the examples that you wrote down in the in the in in the in in the concept of this episode is like watching something on TV or having a conversation with somebody and having a visceral reaction to it where you just do not agree with that person. So that is what you said is part of othering. Well, how can you overcome that or how can you recognize that in yourself?

Lindsay Oakes:

The first thing to do is to learn to catch yourself when you have these opinions. Stop having so many opinions and do what Jack Cornfield says, which is, oh, okay, I don't need to have any skin in the game here. I don't need to be right here. I don't have to give my opinion or judge the situation. I can just allow that person to be with whatever they're with in that moment and allow it to be there. I don't have to get involved. Because what also happens, this is uh what happens with me, is like when you start to get involved in the I have to be right and I have to, you know, show everybody and prove my point, you activate your own nervous system too.

Cleveland Oakes:

Yeah, and it goes back to kind of what Terence Real says is the problem in couples is that people bring that into their relationship as a couple. It's okay, it's not even okay to do it on Facebook. It's not okay to do it on Twitter, it's not okay to do it on social media, right? But it's definitely not okay in a relationship to other your spouse, right? To other, to other your family members and other the people that you have to live with. And yet people can't constantly do it in relationships, they constantly do it in marriages, and then they wonder why their marriage or their relationship has broken down and failed.

Lindsay Oakes:

Right, absolutely. And we we as humans have created this. We have created, I remember I heard a podcast maybe a couple of years ago, uh, during which Tara Brock said the things that were going on in the Middle East were learned behaviors that each generation is taught to hate the others. And then when she said that we as humans create a hierarchy, I thought, wow, that's very interesting because it is correct. We decide who's in charge, and then you must follow that person. And so it isolates whole groups of people, right? Was it yesterday that we were listening to something? Um, and they said, like on the news, that you will not hear about this genocide, this religious genocide in Nigeria.

Cleveland Oakes:

Bill Maher talked, was talking about it on his on a recent recent episode.

Lindsay Oakes:

And it's you know, they've basically isolated this whole group and they're trying to eradicate the entire group of Christians in Nigeria. And, you know, it's I don't even understand. What is the purpose of that? Like, why does it matter what someone else believes?

Cleveland Oakes:

Right, right. You know, people falsely I at work the other day, we um I was questioned on some of my personal beliefs, right? And it's fine, right? And I never push my personal beliefs on anyone. However, what what really trips me out about certain religious groups, right? Religion at its heart is about acceptance and love, no matter what religions you believe, right? And Jesus, and for all of those out there who claim to be Christians and and and and and are very judgmental, you tell me, open a Bible and tell me who did Jesus judge. Jesus never judged anyone. Jesus, in fact, said, you know, he without sin cast the first stone. Jesus also said, You we often have a tendency to pick out the straw in our brother's eye when we have a rafter on our face. And so oftentimes this othering, I I would like to say it's it's a way to to stop reflecting on yourself and start pointing out the problems that the other person has or the other so-called person has, especially in couples and families and relationships, but more so in the world also at large.

Lindsay Oakes:

I agree with you on that. Absolutely. And what came to my mind is that so the format of my meditation training, it takes two years to do this program. And we have a whole group, which is seven of us. So it's actually very nice. It's an intimate group. You become very close with the folks that you're in the training with. And then the seven of us are broken up into two smaller groups. And something that came up in my smaller group, my individual group, was that someone who is Jewish was really bothered by references to Buddhism in the course. And this has come up with other people where they feel, I think this in particular, this person said there's not an affinity group for the Jewish people in the program. And he was very bothered by this and he felt that he couldn't be aligned with it. And it was interesting to me because I actually, yes, there's Buddhist references, but it's not something where I've said, wow, this training doesn't align with me because of references to a specific religion or because of, you know, what what the some of the you know information in the training is about. And I've always said, and I really believe this, that if you look at any number of spiritual texts, many of them deliver the same message. Right. And they teach the same lessons. And that was something I brought up. I if you know, if you if Buddhism is your thing and you believe in Buddhism, that's great. But if you're Jewish in this training, that's okay too. And in a way, I thought, wow, this is this own and this individual's own insecurities, right, that are making him think he doesn't belong in the group.

Cleveland Oakes:

Right.

Lindsay Oakes:

And so, you know, and that's probably as a result of, you know, all of the kind of things that he has experienced in his life as a Jewish person.

Cleveland Oakes:

And and I think the mistake that people make with religion is that there is only one path to God, right? And even though all religious texts say that, and Jesus says that also, that there's only one path to God, that doesn't mean that there's not multiple ways to go on that path.

Lindsay Oakes:

Well, there's always, I say, right, I tell people all the time there's more than one way to arrive at the same solution.

Cleveland Oakes:

Right. Right. Because if you're starting in a different destination, let's just think of it like this, right? If we're all going to New York and you start in China, and I start in in London, and somebody else starts in Miami, there's only one path to get to New York City, and we're all eventually going to intersect on that path if we're all saying going to 30 Rock, or if we're all say we're going to Washington Square Park, we will all get to that same location, but we will just come.

Lindsay Oakes:

You can take 150 different ways to get there.

Cleveland Oakes:

And so this othering, and you have it in your notes, and Tara Brock says this we are taught to isolate ourselves from others. We are taught to dehumanize ourselves to dehumanize people who do not have our same point of view. And when we think about the murder of Charlie Kirk recently and how some people reacted to the murder of Charlie Kirk, I didn't agree with 99% of the things that Charlie Kirk said. But as Jimmy Kimmel said and Barack Obama said, it is, and as Jesus Christ would say, and for all of you who claim to be Christian or claim, we do not rejoice at evil. We do not return evil for evil and wicked for wicked. This is a command that all holy books say, no matter what you believe. And it is wrong to dehumanize and rejoice in any in any hurt that happens to another person, because that is more, that is part of the continuing of the othering. That you are allowing yourself to dehumanize people. And when you allow yourself to dehumanize people, that is how Gaza gets raised. Right.

Lindsay Oakes:

Mm-hmm. Right. We do that, and we and it's it's often what we're taught. We are taught things from childhood. Parents bring us to church, parents teach us things, parents criticize us based on things that we do. And so what we do is we adapt, as Gabor Mate would say, we adapt and develop traits and characteristics to keep us safe. But now in adulthood, it doesn't serve us. This constant finger pointing, this anger, really what happens is we are disconnected from ourselves. Right.

Cleveland Oakes:

And and and I think, yes, uh, Terry Real also talks about that in us is that even the person who is the person who has the wrong belief that they are the superior person is also traumatizing themselves. They are treating other people as less than. They are treating each other like he he he actually thought about this idea, just like there's a just like people who have suffered trauma, as the Jews and black people and the Native Americans has, is that the people who have put that trauma upon them suffer with guilt, post-generational guilt, is what he said. Is that there's a lot of guilt by the superior by not that by by the ruling class in these countries that have done these things that they really feel a disconnection from their humanity because they haven't been treating people as human.

Lindsay Oakes:

Well, also think about when you went to high school and there was the popular group. Right, right. If you didn't fit in with the popular group, who were you, right? You were isolated. There was something wrong with you because you didn't fit in. Right. Right. And then there's, you know, in some cases, bullying, there's teasing, there's criticizing, there's judgment. And so, you know, we're taught from very young ages, right, if we fit in or not. I remember an example in my own life was my family moved in um when I was in elementary school and I started a new school in the third grade. And there was one girl that was so nice to me. And she was so, so nice to me. She was like the nicest person after I came here. I knew nobody, and I started in school. And I remember one day I was sitting with her and we were talking, and you know, it was third grade, so we'd play together at recess and whatever. And a couple of the other girls in the class who were like the cool girls in third grade, one of them passed me a note that was like, Do you really like her? And I was that's my earliest memory of wow. And I and I remember I wrote back because I've never been one that needs to fit in. I wrote back, yes, I do.

Cleveland Oakes:

I could imagine third grade Linda.

Lindsay Oakes:

Yeah. And and, you know, she and I remained friends, even though we, you know, in high school, we we ran with different crowds. She and I remained friends to that day. She came to visit me in college. You know, I still keep in touch with her a little bit. And she just, I thought, like, here's this one person who's being kind to me when nobody else is, and probably because she needed a friend. Right, right. And and she was a really good friend. But I just remember after that, just feeling this sense of like, wow, there's these very divided groups, even at nine years old, right?

Cleveland Oakes:

But the person that holds themselves apart, even the person that believes that they're superior, Terence Real, and I'm sure Tara Brock would make the agreement, is also doing as much damage to themselves by withholding their friendship or their love or their community from a person that hasn't done anything to them except maybe have a different skin color or hold a different opinion.

Lindsay Oakes:

Right, or whose family is different. Right. And I'm sure in New York City you can see it when you go from neighborhood to neighborhood.

Cleveland Oakes:

Right, right, right, right, right. So I want to move on to part two, part two of this, where you have where you have mentioned the idea of two prisons, right? How othering traps us all. And it goes back to that idea that Terrence Real says is that even the person that's holding him themselves above other people is actually harming themselves is equally as much as they are harming the people that they are holding separate from themselves. So let's speak on that.

Lindsay Oakes:

Absolutely, right? When we are the one who is the inflicted one, right? We're discriminated against, excluded, criticized, judged. And then on the other side of it, we're also the person who's doing that, so to speak, othering, right? Also it creates problems for themselves.

Cleveland Oakes:

Yeah, like uh they close their hearts, their world becomes smaller, and the person who is othering others is often, I think you said, defensive, angry, disconnected from themselves, full of fear, and I think often they don't really know how to behave in any other way.

Lindsay Oakes:

Right.

Cleveland Oakes:

What is what does Tara say to the somatic piece is to this? I think she she has a certain term that you that that she references. It's like like she says it's like a tightening of the body or a fist around the heart.

Lindsay Oakes:

Yeah, because it's like you're constantly in this state of vigilance, right? But it's interesting to think because when you see one of those really popular people who isolates others, when they're not with their own group, they don't even know how to be individually because they act as a part of a collective.

Cleveland Oakes:

Right. You know, in his book, Um, A Thousand Ways to Die, Tremaine Lee, it's a recent book, it was released on September 9th, and Tremaine's a friend of mine. So I was reading the book first out of friendship, and then I was like, Wait, I actually enjoy this book. He talks about this idea of lynching of black people and how these used to be attractions that people would put on postcards and people would come from thousands of miles around to see a more than likely an innocent black person get lynched. And he was like, What damage was it not only doing to the black community, but how what what what does it do to your humanity to come celebrate the death of someone that kids that people were having picnics and gatherings and selling it on postcards? What do you what what damage does that do to a society as a whole when that is what is becomes exciting?

Lindsay Oakes:

It literally isolates an entire group of people. I wanted to actually make a side note there of that podcast that I've been listening to called Seeing White. It's like season two of another podcast. They do different topics every season, but this is about white privilege and and one of the things that was very interesting was that they said the origination of black people and dark-skinned people is goes back to ancient Greece. And nobody would have judged anybody on their color. All of those people lived very peacefully together. Right. And so later it became a learned behavior to, you know, discriminate against dark-skinned people.

Cleveland Oakes:

Right. And it's it's it and and and it goes back to this idea of racism and othering, and other cultures do it. In India, they have a caste system, which is a huge problem in India and a lot of tech companies. You can look these articles up in the New York Times where people from India are come to America and they try to recreate their caste system by asking people, well, where are you from? Right. But all of this othering, Tara Brock points out very clearly, is it closes, it puts us in a prison because not only does it imprison the person that you are othering, it says that you don't belong here, right? Right. You don't, this is not for you. This is mine, but it also closes off your heart. I, you know, I want to talk about what's going on in Israel and Gaza for a moment, right? I don't have all the details on all the points, but what we can see from from Israel and Gaza is hurt people who have learned to be hurt, who have who've who have been traumatized and wrongly genocided against and hurt, have now taken that lesson and said, Hey, well, you know what? Let's go commit genocide against these people because this is what we're doing.

Lindsay Oakes:

You know, when this conflict started, right? I mean, now this is generations and generations and generations ago. So it literally is what I said earlier, which is it is taught behavior. Right. The next generation is born and we're teaching them to hate these people. And then after that, we're teaching them to hate these people. And what is the really what is the I don't even understand like the point of that. Yeah, what's the enroll? You know, you don't, you don't get you know it it's it doesn't make sense to me, I guess is what I'm saying, because I don't really care that much about what any group of people is doing.

Cleveland Oakes:

Yeah, it's a form of senseless violence, right? And when you and and let's take it back from the national scale and bring it back down to the family scale and bring it back down to the neighborly scale and bring it back down to even couples and individuals. Mm-hmm. When you treat your partner as an other, right? Or a child in your home.

Lindsay Oakes:

You look like a jerk, but anyway.

Cleveland Oakes:

Yes, you're absolutely yes, you when you treat it. I always say that. We it but people do it. And then people come to us and it was like, well, why don't they understand I'm right? Or why doesn't she why doesn't they understand that they're wrong?

Lindsay Oakes:

Well, someone said it to me recently about their partner and you know, talked negatively. And my response to that individual was if you are so unhappy, then why don't you get a divorce? Right, right. Because you look like a jerk when you talk about the person that you married.

Cleveland Oakes:

Yes, but we bring that othering and that toxicity. We, you know, we talk about Israel and Gaza, we talk about black and white in America, but a lot of people have that othering in their household.

Lindsay Oakes:

And Terry Real talks about that in us that this idea of racism, this idea that I am better than you, that I, you know, because I I know some people that, you know, in our lives who do that, who will talk about you, who will talk about me, who will talk about each other, and whoever they can get on the train with them, they will bring into that car. Right. And it has caused kind of a divide, I think, amongst all of us as a family.

Cleveland Oakes:

Right, right. And that that othering or this idea that the way I live is superior to the way you live. Listen, I don't agree with how a lot of people live, but I'm not the one that has to live, has to live their life. Right.

Lindsay Oakes:

And it's also not your place to tell them that.

Cleveland Oakes:

Absolutely, right? You know, the Bible says that vengeance is mine, saith the Lord, right? And I'm sure a lot of other holy books say that, that at the end of the day, it is not for you to decide your neighbor's fate or for you to judge if your neighbor's gay, if your neighbor's straight, if your neighbor's a cat person, if his neighbor's a dog person, if your neighbor's a Jew, if your neighbor's a Christian, if your neighbor's a Muslim. That's all their business. But but what we have to do here as a culture is get rid of the toxic othering and realize that we are damaging ourselves is equally. We are putting we are closing ourselves off to new experiences, we are closing ourselves off to new ideas, and we see it in government, especially, right? The government's getting really shut down this week because Democrats and Republicans once again cannot agree on a series of ideals. And you know what Democrats and Republicans are all elected to do? To take care of the goddamn people and not have debates on ideology, on morals. It is to do the business of the people, right?

Lindsay Oakes:

Right. And when it comes down to your own household, what I say is just because I have hopes and dreams for somebody in this household doesn't mean they have the same hopes and dreams for themselves. Right. And and that causes, you know, the isolation in families. Right. And that kind of breaks the bond between family members. We're not always going to agree with what people do. Right. But it's we could sit here and spend our entire lives pointing the finger and, you know, telling that person what's wrong with them. But all it does is it also is another distraction, which we talked about in our last episode of actually working on yourself. You could get sucked into this, right? As Trish would say. You can get sucked into all the crap that's going on around you, or you could just work on yourself. You can work on yourself and you can say, why is this a problem for me? Right. It's not a problem with the other people, it's not a problem with the black people or the Asian people or the Jews or, you know, the, you know, Muslims or whoever. It is a problem in my heart that I can't open my heart to love.

Cleveland Oakes:

Right. And Terry Real talks about that in us toward the end of the book, also, which is like you need to, when something triggers you, or when a person triggers you, or when your partner triggers you, or when somebody has a different opinion than you triggers you, instead of going out to lash out at that person and be like, oh, this person is if it's not illegal, if it's not immoral, if it's not ethically wrong, then you need to question what that is bringing up in you.

Lindsay Oakes:

Right. And we talked about that two weeks ago. and I want to move on a little bit too to you know, how do you kind of recognize it's this in yourself and what do you do about it? How do you connect more with yourself so that you can connect more with others? And a big part of that for me, anyway, is mindfulness. Right. But, you know, for other people, there's other things to do, but it's just ignoring looking where the message comes from.

Cleveland Oakes:

Right. So this is moving on to our final part, which is going from the antidote of armor to authentic connections, right? So give us some suggestions.

Lindsay Oakes:

The ultimate connection is the one that you have with yourself. And and we've talked about a couple of practices in the past. I know we've talked about rain before, and it's really just a look at yourself doing some exploratory work of where do these messages come from. In my family, there's a lot of messages and a lot of opinions. Right. They don't bother me.

Cleveland Oakes:

I think in everybody's family.

Lindsay Oakes:

Right. But in, but then you've got the other people who act like their family is this wonderful, close, tight-knit group. Yeah. Right. And you see that a lot. Um, but for me, it's this meditative piece of sitting there and looking at yourself without judgment is first. Sitting and just being and accepting yourself the way that you are, and then recognizing that there's an ability to change. Right.

Cleveland Oakes:

But so, so for those of I know you said we talked about rain, but can you give us a quick reminder of what rain is and the what the what it is an acronym for?

Lindsay Oakes:

it's to the R is recognize, the A is allow, the I is investigate or inquire, and then the N is to nurture. And nurturing yourself is actually the most important part of it. Tara Brock was talking last week in um Something I was listening to about there's so many videos and um so many lectures kind of and dharma talks for my training. And one of the things that she was saying was that, and and I love I love that when you see somebody who's an expert in this still struggles with the same things that you or I would struggle with, right? And she said that her mom was ill and living with her and her husband, and she didn't have the time, or she kept not having the time to spend with her mother. And then one day she realized that her mother was not doing well. And she wanted to sit with that because she was having all these feelings of guilt and of sadness, and she was not proud of her own behavior in in regards to what was going on. And so she actually said she sat down and and practiced rain and she really nurtured herself and she, you know, kind of assured herself that it would be okay. Right. And that these things happened. And, you know, she identified the emotions around it, guilt and sadness, and and then she changed her ways, she said. And she said she one day her mom kind of dozed off and she still sat there and her mom woke up and was like, You're still here. And then her mom fell asleep again and woke up and she's oh, you're still here. Right. And so she had to kind of put that some of that stuff aside and kind of make time to take care of herself. Right. And in taking care of herself, she was able to take better care of her mother. You know, one thing I've started doing recently is I I'm I'm tired, I told I think I told, I don't know if I told you this, but I've been saying like I'm tired of like negotiating with myself and saying I don't have to do time to do things because I sure waste a lot of time if I looked at a day. Right. I I'm sure I scroll, I sit in the car for 10 minutes here and you know, do push, you know, play games and check things on the phone, it waiting for an appointment. And I finally just said, I'm gonna make time to do the things that I want to do. And so, like every single day I'm gonna read. Right. And I've been reading now every day for a month.

Cleveland Oakes:

Congratulations.

Lindsay Oakes:

Thank you.

Cleveland Oakes:

Yeah, congratulations.

Lindsay Oakes:

Right. But we have to realize that like we we say a lot of things and do a lot of things, but we are the ones in control of changing them.

Cleveland Oakes:

Right, right. And I and and I I always, and I know it's uh it's ironic because we have a social media platform, our business, uh, we have to advertise, and more and more people are telling me I have to do more and more posts. So I do a couple of endless PTO posts every once in a while. But I do believe that this that that part of what's harming people is social media, that they are going on social media, they're becoming radicalized, they are finding either people who agree with their with their backwards, or not backwards points of views, but with their very specific point of view, and are dismissing all other arguments, right? And that is not how humanity works, right? God or whatever the universe or whatever you believe in. Um, Star Trek, the Vulcans believe in IDIC, which is infinite diversity and infinite combination. And that is what makes the universe a wonderful place to be. I don't need to understand you, I don't need to believe in the same things that you believe in, but I do need to respect you as a person and the wonderment that you bring to this.

Lindsay Oakes:

However, that is what I always say. I always say that is that you don't need to understand. Right. You don't need the answers. It's all about respect, right? I work with a couple and she was kind of getting heated because the husband kept saying something about, oh, well, you know, you don't feel that way, you don't feel that way, blah, blah, blah. And she said, I do too, and I'm allowed to. Right. Which is what I teach my clients. It's like, you know what? Um you perceive it in a different way than she does. And that's okay. But you have to recognize that someone perceives it differently than you.

Cleveland Oakes:

And ultimately, you don't have to stick with the people that you don't that you don't abide by, like you don't have to live with them, you don't have to eat break break bread with them or whatever. But you do, for the peace of yourself, have to live with them with respect. You have to understand that other people have different experiences from you. There is no above or below, as Terry Reel says. He says, neither above nor below, which means, once again, as I said, that no one is better than you, no one is beneath you, you're not better than anyone or any else, and no one is better than you. And once you realize that we all are the same and have different experiences, that will take a weight off of you of this burden. Like, I have to hold these people differently than me.

Lindsay Oakes:

You know, I don't really talk about politics, but let's look at the person right now who's leading the country. And that person does a lot of petty criticism and judgment. And and it's unbelievable to me because you really wouldn't think that that person should have all the time to do that. Right. I would imagine there's a million other things that need to be done. But it's funny because he's allowed to do them, but if someone else does them, then he fires them or they're punished, and you know, he's go talking about them. And it's just it's a perfect example of somebody who's so wounded and disconnected from themselves.

Cleveland Oakes:

How much energy does it take? And that's the point, is how much energy does it take to hate?

Lindsay Oakes:

I always say that. Right. I always say it takes so much energy to be mean. Yeah, it's to be mean and nasty. And I I just don't do that. It isn't not for me. I I really don't have any skin in the game. One of my colleagues said to me, Wow, you're so nice to these parents when they come in. And I'm like, Well, we're delivering really sensitive news to them about their children having developmental delays, but also, so I'm gonna go ahead and say something that I later regret because the parent is gonna go tell somebody, and then that person's gonna come back to me, and then I'm gonna be punished for it. So I can just say, right? I mean, I yes, it's difficult to, it's difficult sometimes to interact with certain people, right? But unfortunately, that is the nature of my job. Right. And so I have to just put a spin on it and say, let's just look at it from another angle.

Cleveland Oakes:

No, and we're not saying change your boundaries, right? We're not saying it's not about boundaries. And we're not saying change your beliefs. What are what are we saying about this toxic othering?

Lindsay Oakes:

Stop judging people, stop isolating people and take a look at yourself and see where some of these beliefs and thoughts that you have came from. Approach people with genuine curiosity and kindness. Right. Because you also have to realize that you don't know what anyone in their life is going through. Right. You don't. And it's, you know, and oftentimes we react to the wrong person, right? Somebody else is just giving the message to us, but the message came from someone else. And we treat people poorly and we make people feel bad, but it's not even something that was coming from them. Right.

Cleveland Oakes:

And I can't speak to any other religion because I'm not a student of any other religion. But I will say this for all of you so-called Christians out there who are very judgmental and putting people in their place, is Jesus approached people from a place of curiosity. As a therapist, I approach people from a place of curiosity. Yes, I have a certain standard for me, for my life. My Lindsay definitely has a certain standard for herself and her life. I sure do. But we would not be effective counselors and we would not be good human beings if we did not approach people from a place of curiosity. Right. Jesus never told nobody they were going to hell. He never said, you know, like you get out of here and I'm gonna stone you to death or whatever. He approached people from a place of curiosity and he asked it, he asked questions that help the people consider if they needed to make changes to their lives for themselves.

Lindsay Oakes:

Right. And and really the answer is love. Right. The answer is love. It's self-love, it's love for others. The answer is love. And love is the only thing that is going to bridge the gap between all of the others.

Cleveland Oakes:

Well, I don't think we can add anything else other than that, and I think that's a good place to end it. Um Do you have anything to add? Where can folks find out more about?

Lindsay Oakes:

Like you mentioned, a couple of resources, Tarbrock, uh the other.Tarbrock.com um has lots and lots of free Dharma talks. So does JackCornfield.com. Um I love that they don't make you have a paid subscription. They do have some courses and things that you can take, but there's loads and loads of free Dharma talks. They both have podcasts, there's free meditations. You know, sit and and and read. I think right now I'm reading her book called Radical Compassion. Um, there's another book called You Belong, and that's about racism and understanding and but the idea is that all of us belong. We all belong. And um, you know, I've been reading a lot, so I will, you know, I will think of some others, but I've been reading what's for my meditation training now. And You Belong and Radical Compassion are two of them in The Wise Heart by Jeff Cornfield. And also, I've been reading a book of mindfulness for clinicians, uh, because I do share a lot of mindfulness with my clients, and you know, I've gotten a lot of positive feedback on it. But you know, mindfulness is actually, yes, it's a practice, and we do need to make time for it, but it's really nothing more than just sitting and reflecting and being present and seeing what's coming up for you. So, yeah, the name, right? The official name is mindfulness, but it's really how we should operate on a day-to-day basis.

Cleveland Oakes:

And Tara's uh podcast, I believe it's called, uh, it's also called Radical Acceptance. She has a book also called Radical Acceptance, yeah. And so those are all definitely things you should listen to. Um, like I said, I think that's a great place to to to um to end it. Um, is always lead with curiosity and love.

Lindsay Oakes:

Yes.

Cleveland Oakes:

This has been Cleveland. Love, say it again.

Lindsay Oakes:

Love is the answer.

Cleveland Oakes:

And love is the answer. This has been Cleveland and Lindsay. And Lindsay, I love you.

Lindsay Oakes:

I love you too. All right, we gotta go now. We gotta get on the road, and you need a shower.

Cleveland Oakes:

Yep, I need a shower. This has been another episode of The Devil You Don't Know.

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Lindsay Oakes

Host
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Cleveland G. Oakes Jr.

Co-host