The Devil You Don’t Know
In The Devil You Don’t Know, Lindsay, Cleveland, and their guests discuss personal growth and development by taking chances and getting out of your comfort zone. Topics range from whimsical to serious and everything in between but are always relevant to growth and development.
The Devil You Don’t Know
Your Emotional Triggers Are Actually Medicine in Disguise: Turning Reactivity into Wisdom
Have you ever wondered why certain people or situations trigger such intense emotional reactions in you? What if those triggers aren't just annoying disruptions but actually powerful messengers trying to reveal something important about your unhealed wounds?
In this thought-provoking episode, we dive deep into the concept of turning reactivity into wisdom. Instead of the typical blame game we play when triggered ("How could they be so insensitive?"), we explore a radical alternative—viewing our triggers as medicine, opportunities to understand and heal parts of ourselves that need attention. Drawing from Jack Kornfield's "The Wise Heart" and Terrence Real's relationship work, we unpack how our automatic reactions often connect to childhood experiences and unresolved pain.
We share personal stories that illustrate how reactivity plays out in relationships, including our own moments of conflict and growth. You'll learn the practical STOP method (Stop, Take a breath, Observe, Proceed with awareness) to interrupt reactive cycles before they escalate into what we jokingly call "mutually assured destruction." Most powerfully, we discuss how to view your triggered self not as a problem but as a wounded child needing compassion and understanding.
This episode offers a refreshing perspective for anyone tired of emotional reactivity controlling their life. By turning inward with compassionate curiosity rather than pointing fingers, you can transform your most challenging triggers into your greatest teachers. The freedom waiting on the other side of this practice is truly what the wise heart is all about.
Please email us at Gettoknowthedevil@gmail.com
This is Cleveland.
Speaker 2:And this is Lindsay.
Speaker 1:And this is another episode of the Devil. You Don't Know. Well, Lindsay, what are we going to be talking about today?
Speaker 2:Turning reactivity into wisdom.
Speaker 1:Wow, this is completely your topic. Normally I'm the one that leads the discussion, but we're going to do something different for a change, as I sit back and drink my vodka with grapefruit, because it's been that kind of day already, for me Maybe that kind of day already for me, maybe that kind of week. But let's get into, before we get into the main topic, what's been going on? It's been a couple of weeks since we recorded. We've been very, very busy with very, very, a lot of many things. But what's going on?
Speaker 2:All right, so let's talk a little bit about the good, the bad and the ugly. We went once again to the magnificent 100% vegan bed and breakfast in the Finger Lakes, the Black Sheep Inn and Spa. So much fun with our friends Jessica and David, who came and spent a couple nights up there too. We played bocce. I mean, I felt like I was living in a retirement community.
Speaker 1:I was throwing bocce balls while drinking aperitifs At Point Bluff Winery, where I might've been a little over-served, because I came back and looked at the lemonade that we brought there and, oh my Lord, that stuff was 16%. You know what? After this, I think I'm going to mix that with some vodka and see what happens, maybe, oh Lord.
Speaker 2:That's why I just had one and sat and watched you. Yeah, that actually made you really good at bocce, though.
Speaker 1:I was amazing.
Speaker 2:You were really good.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we met Seth and I think Seth and his wife Emily I feel like her name was Alexa. Alexa and Seth was like you're a natural, you should join the bocce league, and I was like, perhaps, maybe but it was a great time and, as usual, simon and Miranda were just magnificent hosts.
Speaker 2:Um, maybe we'll just talk really briefly about that gentleman who couldn't read the room, tony.
Speaker 1:Oh Lord, tony's probably listening to the show and crying right now, cause he was a. He was a big fan. He asked me for a signed copy of the book. I just gave him the book.
Speaker 2:Right. Well, this is a huge trigger for me on awareness. You know that I am very triggered by people who are not aware and we sat down. It was our final morning. The breakfast there is fabulous because it's almost like a multi-course experience and I don't think there's ever a time in my life where I've eaten breakfast over the course of like 90 minutes to two hours. But every time we're there we do. It's so lovely and relaxing and obviously all vegan, which I just love. So on our last morning, finally, cleave allowed me to sit outside. It was kind of cold it was cold for september.
Speaker 2:I think the the high us in the perimenopause menopause era are not cold, yeah, okay, just going to say that. So we sit down outside and you got your coat on and then this guy just walks up, gets himself a cup of coffee and then pulls up a chair.
Speaker 1:At the table.
Speaker 2:And he just sits down. Now, he didn't just sit down for 10 minutes. We're sitting there, he's cursing, he's loud, and then, when we would try to talk a little more quietly, he'd be like you don't have to be quiet. And I'm taking a look around and I said, well, other people are here, they're on vacation, they're having breakfast. Didn't get it? Okay, proceeds to talk about everything that I don't ever want to talk about. My nervous system was so activated you and I were not. I wasn't picking up your signals. You weren't picking up my signal I was picking up your signals.
Speaker 1:You just weren't picking up ours because even simon came over to usher him away and we both kept on saying, lindsey, do you want to order breakfast, do you want to order breakfast? And me and him were on the same page because we were going to.
Speaker 2:I kept saying no, because I wanted to eat my breakfast in peace and I'd already had my muffin and my granola and fruit and my coffee. With this jackass excuse my language sitting there, not picking up on the fact that he was the only one talking excuse my language sitting there, not picking up on the fact that he was the only one talking I went in the room, came back 10 minutes later, brought my phone and thought perhaps I could obnoxiously sit on my phone and he will get that I'm not even listening to him and just giving like the one word nod answers. Didn't get it and so finally it got to the point where I took a cup.
Speaker 2:I don't even drink juice ever but I brought a glass into the inn to see how we could get this man away from the table. And when I get inside, simon tells me bloody hell. I have been trying to get him away, he just didn't get it. His wife was sleeping in.
Speaker 1:Where was his adult, because he talked to her all night. Where was his adult is what I kept on asking.
Speaker 2:Right. So then it turns out that while I'm in there, this other couple was like oh God, we already had a turn, but if you guys would like to eat in peace we could take another turn. So now there's only six or seven rooms there. This man has a reputation of being completely loud and inappropriate and talking and talking and talking, with zero opportunity for conversational turn taking. So by the time I had come out, you told him my wife is done talking to you. Now we're going to eat breakfast. Goodbye.
Speaker 1:And I said I added long, as, as Debbie told you, he actually said my wife is long done talking. He was like for real. I kind of felt like it, but maybe clearly he wasn't feeling like it.
Speaker 2:Okay, because he didn't leave. Debbie and Todd, who are at the other table, said that they were at the fire pit the night before enjoying a nice evening together. They had something to drink, put their feet up, had the fire going and the dude I don't know again where was his wife came to the fire pit and sat there and talked for two hours until Debbie finally said I'm done now, good night, and got up. This man is just ruining people's vacations.
Speaker 1:So Simon proved a theory that I got from my friend, former co-worker, ron Sheely, who used to say, wherever people can get to the bus to, I'm never going there. Right, and so what he meant by that is that if it's easy and accessible for the masses and I'm not, none of us here are elitist but if it's easy and accessible for the masses I'm not, none of us here are elitist but if it's easy and accessible for the masses as as alexander used to say, as alexander hamlin used to say, the masses are asses then that is a place that I do not need to be, because but I do love to be there, so that you know doesn't apply.
Speaker 1:No, but no, here's where it applies is because simon comes to me as a form of apology and is like, well, he did come here on a gift card and I was like, simon, it's okay, he, you know what he he meant. Well, you know, the guy was obviously lonely, his adult, his adult was asleep.
Speaker 2:He didn't want to spend time with him the night before or the morning.
Speaker 1:His adult was clearly asleep and and he needed handling, so so so it is what it is, but wonderful other than that. Other than that it was a wonderful um vacation. It was a wonderful trip. We got to rent the pontoon boat. We went out with all of our friends on the pontoon yeah, it was great.
Speaker 2:Miranda packed us a nice lunch. It was just, it was really. It's just so spectacular up there. It's it's, it's beautiful. It's remote, but there's enough to do. There's a fantastic all vegan Thai restaurant, lord. That place is good. I don't know why we don't have places like that around here.
Speaker 1:Yeah, remember the couple we met from Westchester. I want to call them uh. Well, today I'm going to go out and call them Mordecai and uh Eleonora. And they were like we're vegetarian, but we do not. We've never seen a vegan Thai place. And I was like Mordecai, my friend, you are in for a treat. Um, uh the tie. Was it a green tie?
Speaker 1:Uh, it's like green elephant tie green elephant tie in Glen Watkins, new York, right? So if you ever have an opportunity, even if you're not Watkins Glen I said it backwards Even if you are not vegan, uh, this place is fantastic. Uh, I almost messed up because we were coming from point bluff, uh, with the lemonade um that I had, and I think I lingered a little too long and it was about a half hour from Hammondsport. Uh, watkins Glen and Lindsay was like we got to hurry up. We got to hurry up because last time we were there we couldn't even get in, right, remember that.
Speaker 1:It's very popular, very popular place opens at five. Every seat in the restaurant is typically taken by five 30. And we got there at five 30 in the dot and I think we got to one of the very last tables, at least for like the next 90 minutes.
Speaker 2:It was insanely busy in there, but the food was fabulous once again. So let's move on from that. And you know, talk about the four day house party, the car accident and the eviction.
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah, so we're going there. So four day house party, let's, let's start. So so Huckleberry Tim is currently not living here at the moment, and it's uh, not only at the moment.
Speaker 2:He's not living here anymore Anymore Right Not?
Speaker 1:not, not, not. And so for our audience who's been following our lives, not not one of the worst things, but here's it is, here it is is when you can't follow the rules. Right If you, if you're in a marriage, and you can't follow the rules, if you had a job and you can't follow the rules, if you go to a restaurant and can't follow the rules, the all of these places will ask you to leave. And so we come home and it's mostly good. The dogs are this time still alive.
Speaker 1:No $1,500 bill, um, but a couple of things are askew, which prompts us to look at the camera and, um, it's a lot of activity. You know, I could see from the look when we were talking to our neighbor across the street. Uh, the electrician we won't name, we will not name the innocent I could, could you see from the look on his face when I was talking. Hey, I heard it was a lot of activity in my house. I saw the look on his face and I could think he kind of yeah, there was, you know. So I'm looking at the camera and it's like people not persons like one.
Speaker 1:A lot of people, a lot coming in and out of the house from like Thursday, from like Thursday to Sunday, at all times of night, like two o'clock, three o'clock, four o'clock in the morning. I'm looking at the camera. People are sleeping on the couch On the floor.
Speaker 2:Now, granted, I mean, how in the world? I think I guess at that age it must be funny to play with your mother's label maker, right? Because I mean the things that were out and left around. And then, how about the lie? Well, I only had one friend over. You're like, would you like me to send the video footage, would you like?
Speaker 1:that's like would you like to see the screenshot? Like no, no, no, no, no, no car is wrecked. Don't know how it happened, this is amazing. So it's like yeah, bro, um, I don't think you know how to follow the rules here. I think it is as an adult. It's either you can be all you can be or you can go somewhere else, and I think there was a mutual consensus amongst the at least the two of us I don't know about the three of us is that you must go somewhere else it was time, it was really time to to go, and you know what it's.
Speaker 2:It's very much a shift in energy. Now in our house there's no children, we're empty nesting and it's very relaxing here to say the energy is pretty calm most of the time, yeah, most of the time. I think poor betty who is uh, because we, we're right now, we're pretty much empty nesters.
Speaker 1:we got two cats and three dogs and calm most of the time yeah, Most of the time, I think poor Betty who is, uh, cause we were right now. We're pretty much empty nesters. We got two cats and three dogs and two. We have actually three cats and two dogs. Oh my God.
Speaker 2:I said it reverse.
Speaker 1:Oh wow, this pink grapefruit stuff is uh, this is this little cocktail I made for myself is actually kicking in already. But we have three cats and two dogs. Two of the cats now um roam the streets, which is fine with me. But poor Betty is now home alone with the dogs and she started peeing on the bathroom floor and I think she's just very, very anxious because her space, like there's been too many changes in the house and so she needs even more of my attention and follows me around and from room to room and sits with me and it's it's. It is what it is. It's it's it's better to be. It is what it is. It's it's it's better to be loved than not loved at all.
Speaker 2:That is the truth. Yep, that is so well. Shall we get into it?
Speaker 1:Yeah, this is your topic. So you, you tell me, I mean this is going to be an unusual one, because you're so used to dominating. I well, yes, thank you for that compliment. I appreciate that You're very welcome. I am dominates the court, amongst other things.
Speaker 2:Oh my Lord, stop, no. So this is a concept that I wanted to dive into. It flips the script, in a way, on how we deal with conflict and emotional pain, and I had been reading this book called the Wise Heart by Jack Kornfield and it referenced a story of a man who'd had a lot of issues at work and his relationship was rocky and his mother was ill and he had all these stressors in his life and it was recommended that he go on a meditation retreat. And you know, briefly, he was getting triggered by everybody on this retreat, everybody and everything, because he couldn't sit with his own emotional pain. So he would listen to the sounds in the room.
Speaker 2:If someone would cough, if someone would do this, he would become irritated with them. He'd feel himself in this visceral, angry reaction and after, I think the first day, he went to one of the meditation teachers and he's like, yeah, this isn't for me, and they sat with him and they made him sit with it and he had this huge shift in how he perceived things. And the reason I wanted to talk about this is because we do get triggered so often, but what we don't look at is, you know, that we don't need to look at the external right, that kind of that, whatever it is that's triggering us. But the real healing happens when we can look at and understand our own emotional pain in that moment for this man, not like, oh, that person is coughing, they're doing this, it's irking me, right. But like, why am I having such a reaction to this? So that was something that was really interesting to me and I wanted to talk about that today with you.
Speaker 1:Right, right, yeah, so. So turning reactivity into wisdom, the, the, the medicine of our own path and one of my favorite scriptures I believe it's Philippians 2.12 that aligns with this is work out your own salvation. I quote it all the time, but with or as one of my colleagues reminded me in grad school that the latter half of that scripture says with fear and trembling. So to work out your own path or find out your own path, it is up to you, but that fear and trembling piece means that it is going to be hard work.
Speaker 2:Right, absolutely. So let's just kind of segue right into the first segment here, which is basically the setup what happens when we are triggered?
Speaker 1:Right. So I'm actually reading um us that you recommended by Terrence real, or Terry real. Um, and one of the and it was a book that you recommended to me to to share with some of my couples. And so whenever I share a book with my, with one of the couples that I work with, I decided to read it myself. And Terrence real actually talks about this idea of being triggered. Um, it's a visceral, it's automatic and it's an overwhelming reaction to say something, something someone says to, to something, yes, To something that someone says right or does or does, and Terrence real calls that the adaptive child Right. And so when you are triggered, it is something in you that reminds you of a powerless child. You know, at least in his theory, and I'll let you speak on this, since this is your topic, but in his theory is like it triggers the child in you, the powerlessness in you.
Speaker 2:Well, I would agree with that. My breathwork teacher, trish, who I, you know, I love very much, and she would say if you think of yourself as a Russian nesting doll, right, you have like a smaller doll and a smaller doll, and then at the very core is that tiny, tiny doll. So if you think about those little dolls as different ages in your life, when you're triggered, she says, it never just pokes that big doll, right, it goes into the core, right and I think that's what Terry Real is talking about as well when we're triggered, it is bringing up some kind of emotional pain or wound that we have.
Speaker 1:What he actually specifies is. He would say sometimes people say that you are remembering, that the adaptive child is triggered because it is remembering the trauma, and Terry real says, no, it's not that you're remembering the trauma is that wound actually makes you relive the trauma, and so the trigger is you now reliving something traumatic in your past and you might not even realize it. And but one of the things he suggests is you have the wise adult inside of you and you, as the wise adult, have the choice to how the adaptive child reacts.
Speaker 2:Right, Absolutely so, and it's. It's also that it's this when we are triggered and we have this visceral reaction, right, it turns into something else where we blame the other person. We have this emotional response that might be very hasty and inappropriate, right, and often our emotional response is impacted by the mood we're in, right? So if we're already in a bad mood and someone says something that we perceive as negative or is doing something that bothers us, we're probably going to have more of that knee-jerk reaction than we would. But we have this thing where we wanna point the finger and do the blame game and I always talk with my clients about that as well and so when we do that, it's the opposite of what we need to do, Right? We don't want to look at like why am I having that response? We just want to blame someone else.
Speaker 1:Right, you bring up a good story that I just read just last night. Wow, the universe works in a wonderful way. It was about I'm kind of old, I'm 52. I don't know how many people in our audience actually know who Carol Burnett is and Tim Conway and Harvey Korman are, but the Carol Burnett show was one of the funniest shows on TV ever. If you've never seen it, go look it up on YouTube and it's amazing. Harvey Korman and Tim Conway were like a very comedic duo and Carol Burnett recently and I think she's 92 now uh, talked about the time that she had to fire Harvey Korman because he was chronically coming to the set and it was very rude and very nasty and mean to people to a point where it made people uncomfortable.
Speaker 1:And so she goes to him one night after he's particularly rude to everyone and says I don't know what your problem is, but I need you to be in a better mood. And he, he, he, he actually said he scared her where he like barked at her, was like get out of my dressing room. You know, I don't. You know what, if you're going to ask me how I'm feeling and telling me I can't be, you know I can't be in a bad mood and I, you know, I quit. Today's my last day on the show, and so she was like you know what Okay Calls his agent.
Speaker 1:I don't want this guy here. He's he's, he's his, his. The way he's reacting to everything is ruining the show and he's gone. I want him. We're going to tape the show. He's out of here tonight. She goes back to his dressing room and says you know what, harvey? You got your wish. You're gone. You're out of here because you need whatever is bothering you. You cannot be reactionary to everybody here who is trying to be in a good mood because you are going through something.
Speaker 2:Right. I always say that when, when the kids act a certain way, I say to them well, I can't imagine that you're that upset with me because we haven't even really talked much today, but if you do want to come to me and tell me what's going on, I'm here for you. And that usually stops them in their tracks because they're like, oh, that's not working for them, right, right, my mood is not working right now, and it really does typically work. But let's shift then into the next segment, the paradigm shift, the trigger as a messenger.
Speaker 1:OK, and tell me a little bit more about that. So you know about this. So what is the trigger?
Speaker 2:as a messenger, it's sending us a message that something is wrong Right Very much what we just talked about, and not necessarily wrong but that something is going on. There's something inside of us that's being activated, there's a wound that's being opened Right, and so the trigger is, you know the thing that kind of says something else is happening here.
Speaker 1:So I think one of the things that Jack Kornfield once said is the medicine we need is not out there, it is to understand our pain right. So it's not looking externally but understanding the internal. It sounds like to me.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. And imagine if we could shift things to actually say oh, you know, this person's doing me a favor by making me react in this way, by giving me this kind of visceral knee jerk reaction, this somatic experience. That's uncomfortable, right, right. It's like Trish, my breathwork teacher, says and excuse my language for a moment, but there's a very big shift in healing. When you let your fuck, you's become your thank you's, right, right. That finger pointing when someone does something, f you, f you, I can't stand you, blah, blah, blah. Instead, it's like wow, thank you, because now, in this moment, I have an opportunity to learn a little bit more about myself and that that reminds me, you know, of what she says.
Speaker 1:Right. And to go back to finish that story with Harvey Korman, that's exactly what what happened right is when she told him listen, you got your wish, you're fired. He was like what can we do to make this right? She was like the only thing that we can do to make this right is you need to find out what is going on inside of you, that you feel like you need to treat everybody badly. And until you figure that out, she said, when you figure that out, I expect you to be the happiest man in this place.
Speaker 1:And he said that he went to a bar and the legend has it that he went to a bar across the street and was like you know what Cheers to Carol Burnett for putting me in my place and she was like after that, after that conversation, Harvey Korman was the most pleasant gentleman to work with because he recognized he did the work and started recognizing him himself, why he was so angry and what he was so agitated about. To go along with your point, Right, absolutely Right.
Speaker 2:And so it does. It shifts instead of the shame and the blame game. It shifts it back onto us and it helps us to identify what is the wound that needs attention and healing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think with some of our friends that we had recently. You know, these are some powerful questions that you can ask yourself instead of how can they be so insensitive and how can they be so judgmental, is ask yourself and this is goes back to what you say is, if it's, if it's not true, why are you crying?
Speaker 2:Why does this bother me so much? Right, like, what is the wound that it's opening up? Um, yeah, I mean I'm. I am like, yeah, absolutely. I lost my train of thought there for a second, but it is. It's like what is the wound that it opens up and why is it bothering me so much? Right, like, I think I know what I was going to say. I had like a chuckle to myself over here because I I a few weeks ago I can't remember what happened but you were like you know, your procrastination is really annoying to me and I was like well, sounds like a you problem. It's like it kind of works for me.
Speaker 1:But one of the things Terry real says in the book, especially when it comes to this right, when people are triggered us, is like, instead of getting mad at the person, ask yourself what is this bringing up in you, right? And if there's an aspect of what the person is saying is true, then you need to consider the aspect of it that is true, think about what that means to you and, instead of being mad at that person about the aspect of the thing that is true, understand your part in it, right.
Speaker 2:And so Right. That's why I say to my clients if you don't believe it, why are you crying? If it wasn't taking up all of this space in your head and causing you all of this emotional turmoil, then you probably wouldn't be talking about it in therapy, Right?
Speaker 1:And Jordan Harbinger in his in his newsletter. We Bit Wiser had a column that was recently like victim blaming. Holding someone accountable for their part in something is not blaming the victim. Yet a lot of times, and especially in the generation that we live in now and according to this, even this topic that you bring up is people don't want to take their accountability for their part in something.
Speaker 2:No, that's like Huckleberry Tim he doesn't want to take. I mean literally moments after we said okay, this is it, you've got to go. Well, what did I do? What do you mean? What did you do? What do you mean? What did you do? I have no car. What do you mean? What did you do? I have no car. I can't work for two days. Half my stuff is broken and crap is taken out that has no place being taken out.
Speaker 1:Who needs a label maker? And here's the thing is. I expect the Bible says foolishness is tied in the heart, is tied up into the heart of a boy, and it takes the rod of discipline to to to to work that out, right. So there is a level of foolishness, this seven kids between us. Right, there's a level of foolishness that I expect, but when you're over 21.
Speaker 2:Well, and even if you're not over 21,. Okay, how about just don't lie yeah.
Speaker 1:Take accountability.
Speaker 2:Totally did it. Had my friends over. They drank white claws. The picture fell off the wall. Yep, sorry, I did it. That would have gone so much farther with me than I don't know what you're talking about. Nobody dropped a picture oh, I'm trying to sleep, you guys are bothering me which then just activates more and more and more, right, yeah.
Speaker 1:Take accountability. You know, and I use this, and we have a number of friends in our lives and we love them all dearly that do not take accountability and a number of clients that do not take accountability in their stories. And yet, instead of looking internally like Harvey Korman did about OK, maybe Carol's right, Maybe I am being a butthead, Maybe I am offending people Right and and reexamine himself and what it meant and why.
Speaker 2:why like right on his behalf? Why is it that I need to do that? Why do I have to bring everyone down with me? And you know, if we could talk about you for a minute. It's kind of funny because you and I everyone who knows us knows how we interact with one another, but when you are annoyed or triggered or angry by someone, you want everybody around you to go down with you. It is such an annoying habit.
Speaker 1:Mutually assured destruction.
Speaker 2:I said it to you this morning, remember I said just because you're in a bad mood doesn't mean that everyone else around you has to be. And then you piped down, right, but when you get angry, too like you have to fire back. So this is a very good episode for you too. Because this is a good episode for you to kind of, after this, sit and think like, hmm, maybe I do need to I'm working on it no, like sit with it for a moment because I think you like to bring people down with you when you're in that place. Right, and we all have our own. You know, you know trauma responses and such, but but it gives me a laugh also when you'll say, oh well, I'm angry. You know what you're doing is making me angry and I'm like, no, it's not. And you're like, yes, it actually is Right. And I'm just like, whatever, well, I'm working.
Speaker 2:I'm working on it, Right Of course I find it amusing because, like I say, you know we don't like everything about everybody. Those things about you don't bother me.
Speaker 1:I actually there's like humor in them well, terence real says you, you know one of the things, and especially when it resolves around this and or relationships, when somebody pull, points out something to you that you don't like, he's like lean into it if there's a part of you yes, because once you called me a bitch and I and I was like you know what?
Speaker 2:I didn't even say anything back to you, because then I was sitting there and thinking I I was like, well, maybe I am, maybe he does perceive me in that way when I do X, y and Z, and it was a painful moment for me, right, but it's exactly what we're talking about here. I sat with it and I was like, well, I mean, I kind of can be sometimes Right, but I had this moment. I was like, yeah, that doesn't feel so good, okay, so maybe I need to reflect on my communication, my tone of voice, right, instead of just firing back. And that was what I did. And those are the moments when I get a lot of clarity and a lot of healing happens for me.
Speaker 1:And in regards to me, you know, like one of the things that Jack I'm not Jack that Terrence, that Terrence real says is he. He uses his wife, belinda, as an example. He's a Belinda, and Terrence real is a grown, grown ass man, probably in his seventies, eighties, was like Belinda thinks I'm a little boy who is irresponsible, who forgets things that immediately I think this is all husbands who forgets things immediately as he's, as as after he's been asked to do them, and he was like I need to understand that. There's an aspect of me about that. That's true. And instead of getting angry that she's saying that I need to understand her reference point about me. That's true.
Speaker 2:Like the, I think when we're traumatized, the instant thing is oh, this is your problem, this is your fault right, and speaking of terry, real right, it's a book that you're reading is about couples, and I think the subtitle is something about like putting aside you and me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, to be a team or something.
Speaker 2:Right, or to become us, something like that. And so you do have to remember, in relationships it's particularly challenging, right, because you're with this person all the time, every day, most of the time, and you're going to see every little thing that they do. You're going to see every little thing that they do and it's very easy to react to that person from your trauma response when you know they very well can have a, you know, intend something completely different. And so in couples it's hard because we really want to see it from our point of view and it's hard for us to realize oh, cleve had, you know, a whole different life experience than Lindsay had, and so Lindsay reacted in a way that kept her safe. And oh well, maybe this is the way Cleve reacts to keep they know that he kept himself safe in childhood and we don't think about the other person. And this is where we go wrong in relationships is we don't, from the jump, know how to communicate with each other.
Speaker 1:Yeah, terrence real says um in us the problem is, and not just relationships and everything is. No one is everyone goes into the situation Like why doesn't this person see I'm right, right? And when you have multiple people saying like why doesn't this person see I'm right, you are never going to resolve the issue between the two of you and, more importantly to your point, you are never going to resolve the issue inside of yourself.
Speaker 2:Correct, and I always try to bring it back to the client. So, but as we move on, one more thing that I want to say is that being able to kind of ask ourselves these questions moves us from being a victim of circumstance to an explorer of our own inner worlds, because it really truly is what is going on inside of us.
Speaker 1:So so we've talked about the problem. Now let's talk about the solution. So, in this segment, the practice, how to, how to take the medicine. So we've understood what the medicine is. So, lindsay, who is graciously and I'm sorry for calling you a bitch, I'm sorry, I mean, I probably now some things to you over the years.
Speaker 2:Oh, well, like I might be sorry about them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, wives are never sorry for anything. They say you know. But like even thinking of my own story, before we even go into this, years later, they're still upset about being fired from that job or they were divorced and they're still upset about being that divorce is understanding what part you played in that, right.
Speaker 2:Yes, and also you have to stop being the victim.
Speaker 1:Things will never turn around until you're not the victim, and so for me, like one of the ways that you know.
Speaker 2:I did not necessarily. I was happy at the job that I worked in Right, and I'll just use this as an example. I think that's because you are happy, yeah, life. You didn't love the job or the people at the job, but you know it wasn't enough to impact you, in a way, because you are quite satisfied and content with the life that you live.
Speaker 1:Yes, and instead of holding a grudge against those people, I've gone back and looked at, well, what was my part in that? What was my part in leaving that job? Like, what was that part in in that? And it was like, hey, I couldn't do the job the way that they wanted me to do the job. Right, it's the. And when I went to leave, they were like, oh, please, don't leave, but I could not do the job in the way that I was being asked. That's on me, right. And if I did not agree with the way they were asking me to do the job because their spirits didn't align with my spirit, that is still on me. No one forced me out, no one made me leave.
Speaker 2:You said this is not fulfilling anymore.
Speaker 1:Yes, and I've talked to several clients who are in that position and, like I have one person that I've worked with that is like hey, man, I've been doing this job, I've been, I've been this in this position as an engineer, architect or doctor and all of a sudden I can't understand. Like I'm looking at this stuff and I literally cannot understand and I was like you know what? You know what your body's telling you? Your body's telling you you don't belong there anymore.
Speaker 2:Right, or you need to change, you need a break and do things differently. But you know, as we move into this, I think one of the biggest things that we have to actually do right when we talk about the practice how to is communicating with each other, about how you like to communicate, because If one person takes the pause and the other one is barking because they want the fight, it's never going to work out, and I see that a lot with couples.
Speaker 2:That's something that you and I have struggled with, where, like I like to shut the door on your face and you want to chase me around and have the fight, and neither, neither response works.
Speaker 1:Terrence real calls that the angry pursuer, and he was like he was like and he was like that's so crazy. He was like. He was like and he was like that's so crazy. He was like when you think about it, he was like a lot of us are angry pursuers. He was like if you want something, don't approach it angrily. He was like it's. He was like it's. It's paradoxical, but how many of us are angry pursuers?
Speaker 2:Right. And so the reason for this story again is not to like pick on your faults or to say what's wrong with me.
Speaker 1:It's to say there's nothing wrong with you and nothing wrong with you either.
Speaker 2:Sorry, it's so dark out from this storm that's coming in.
Speaker 1:Poor dogs got to be going crazy downstairs.
Speaker 2:So the thing is is that the shift happens when I was able to say to you when you come at me like that, it reminds me of this part of my childhood and that is why I want away. And I remember saying to you if you could maybe bring something else to the table, then I can try to react in a different way. Right, right, and so if you don't have that kind of communication between each other, you're not going to be able to get that pause. But the first thing that you absolutely have to do is just stop.
Speaker 1:Right, right. So I think. So stop is just freeze for a moment, for the S, t is take a breath, physically ground yourself. O is observe, is to think about that somatic piece, like what's going on in your body, like what do you feel? And then P and this is the most important piece is to proceed with awareness, right, right, when we're both being childish and we're both being reactionary and we're both not taking the medicine, then you will just continue to escalate into what I jokingly said is mutually assured destruction.
Speaker 2:Right, right. And what's, I think, also with this is that when we do that, we can take the moment to. You know, recognize it's not going to be easy, because it's never easy to sit in your own pain. Most people cannot even acknowledge the location, they don't even know the location of the somatic experience that they're having, because they're not in tune with their inner world. We spend a lot of time doing that shame and blame game. When we get upset, it's always somebody else's fault. And when it's always somebody else's fault and our mind keeps telling us, oh well, that's fine, because it's not your fault, it's that person's fault, it kind of disconnects us more and more from our body and from the physical experience that we're having, and so it takes a lot of time and practice. And this is also why meditation and mindfulness is so difficult for people at first, because it is almost impossible to just sit there with your pain.
Speaker 1:So, turning inward with compassionate curiosity, what explain to me? What is that is exactly?
Speaker 2:Well, you have to be curious. We talked about that a little bit earlier. Why does, why does this bother me so much? What wound or what trauma is being activated in me? And so we get curious about it? But the compassion comes from this lack of judgment, self blame, just letting go and letting be. It's okay that I feel this way. You know, this is what happened to me and I I feel angry or I feel sad, I'm stressed, I have tension, but you know you have to still love that part of yourself because especially and I'll let you say sorry, but when we have, like a childhood trauma like that we have, it's very painful to kind of dig it up to look at it and we often are judged for a lot of these things and that's why we have, you know, these negative core beliefs that we have.
Speaker 1:Right, and one of the things that that I've always worked with clients is and I always tell clients you got to accept yourself If no one else is going to accept you. If you expect other people to accept you, you must accept yourself. Because if you walk around advertising and believing that you're broken and lost and that you're useless and you're a piece of crap and that no one should ever love you, if you believe that, then I'm going to believe it also, because that's what you're giving off, right.
Speaker 2:Right, that's the energy you put out in the universe.
Speaker 1:I'm so broken. I'm so broken for reacting this way and then, as what people say, and instead you should, you should ask yourself I wonder what this is bringing up for me. I wonder what this is about. Before you go, I what this is bringing up for me. I wonder what this is about. Before you go.
Speaker 1:I just want to say like and it was something that we talked about earlier is our, our poor dog, walker, right? Her fiance was just killed on Wednesday in a tragic accident here, um, where we live at on city Island, right? And she calls us up today Cause we were supposed to go to Vermont this week and she was going to watch the animals and she had agreed to watch the animals just a few minutes before her fiance was killed. And calls up today and is like hey guys, I'm so sorry, that was me, my fiance, that was killed on Wednesday on the on the bridge, and you know I'm. I don't think I can watch your dogs, but I will if you want me to, but I'm, you know I'm. So I'm so sorry, I'm so sorry.
Speaker 2:What are you apologizing for? Like?
Speaker 1:your fiance died. The dogs, the dogs, the dogs.
Speaker 2:The least of the concerns is going away for a weekend, right?
Speaker 1:And so why are people apologizing? Why are you and this goes back to that like, why are you apologizing for your trauma?
Speaker 2:Right. She said I haven't stopped crying all week. And I said I can imagine not. I said but that's okay, you are allowed to cry like you have to grieve the way that you grieve. And but you're right, because I said that to you. I said isn't it funny that we live in a society where people are apologizing for their pain and their grief and their sadness? They're apologizing. She apologized on the phone so many times.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it's, I'm sorry, I can't stop crying, but I will watch them if you need me to and I'm like no, no, absolutely not. Yeah, absolutely not. And so I think the question and I think always with clients is in Terrence, real definitely, definitely talks about this piece is imagine the triggered part of you, not as a problem, but as a child, that that needs to be heard, that needs to be validated, that needs comfort and needs protection. Right, and you, not somebody external, you as a part of taking that medicine, as the wise adult, now needs to come back and you need to figure that out and you need to come for that child. You need to validate that child.
Speaker 2:Right, and this is what you're talking about when we think about the next step of finding the source, if you can, it's. What does it remind you of? I always ask, in Compassionate Inquiry when was the first time that you felt this or experienced this? But you know, you have to be able to sit and have those somatic experiences and connect the emotion to them, because you can't get this far in the process if you don't do that and you can't do that because you have to be able to be very you know what, you can recognize, you know what. What is it reminding me of? When was the first time it happened? Who helped me when this happened? Did anybody talk to me about it? Or was I afraid to even tell anybody?
Speaker 1:So. So the question is I want to ask you as we move into our next and then soon, our final segment is what happens when we do the work?
Speaker 2:Oh, it's great, I love it. We break this cycle. We learn to communicate better, we understand ourselves better, our own emotions, our own physical experiences. We learn to set boundaries. We love ourselves, but we also start to become compassionate for other people that, oh well, this person is behaving this way because maybe this is the way they learned how to behave and we learn from that. That we can recognize in other people. Oh okay, have compassion, they're going through something. It doesn't have anything to do with me, because once you can say it doesn't have anything to do with me, then you can find that compassion. People only react that way because of their own experiences.
Speaker 1:I believe I believe Jack Canfield in the success principles talks about developing self intimacy and self. He does talk about developing self intimacy and self compassion and one of the exercise he talks about in the success principles and it's awkward, but is to go every night and say I love you, cleveland. Cleveland, you are an amazing person who deserves love and and you are my best friend and he was like when you haven't heard you do that yet.
Speaker 1:I, because I've already done it and he was like he said he said, he says no, no, he says do it when everybody's asleep, cause people are going to think you're a weirdo.
Speaker 1:I've, I've thought about doing it, um, but I know I love myself, but, but the key, but the key to it is and I'm going to point to the documentary that we just watched um, katrina, uh, katrina, hell come, hell and high water is you need to develop self-compassion, because if you do not have compassion for yourself, you do not have compassion for other people. Right? And when they talked about the level of crime, the level of of of crime and hate, um, this is talking to black people in the black communities, because black people in America have been taught to hate themselves. Right, when you hate yourself and this is not just to black people, because many of us in America have been taught to hate themselves when we look at the level of anger, the level of the animosity, the level of your own, criticism the judgment and the criticism.
Speaker 1:When you do not love yourself, you are incapable of loving other people.
Speaker 2:Right, well, yeah, that was that documentary. It's a whole episode in itself. How just depressing it was.
Speaker 1:Right, good, yeah, good, good, good. Documentary, and so it goes to. This thing is also, too, is, and I'm going to ask you about responding instead of reacting. What is? What does that mean?
Speaker 2:we're responding instead of reacting communicating clearly, effectively bringing it onto yourself. I always tell you oh well, when this happens, right, we had a certain situation here I won't bring it up just for the person's privacy, although although they'll know who they are. We had an issue with someone asking us for some money and you said, oh no. I said no. After the last time, I said no and I was like, okay, so I went to work and I came home and it wasn't sitting right with me all day and I said I know you said this, but you said this last time also, and so I said it's really bringing up in me like some dis-ease, some discomfort. I want to believe you, but I don't know if I can. I have no idea what you're talking about. And then you, and then we were able to have right and that was my response.
Speaker 1:Right, right.
Speaker 2:When this happened this morning. This is what happened, happened to me. I want to tell you about what happened to me so that we're on the table, because then I don't want you know a week from now, when I'm mad at something, say I can't trust you, right, and so I put it on the table. I want to trust that you're telling me the truth in this situation. This is what's coming up for me, right, and we were able to resolve it immediately. Had had I come in and said I don't believe you, you did it before. You're such a liar, you betrayed me, the whole conversation would have gone in a different direction, right?
Speaker 1:All right. And John C Maxwell. John C Maxwell's relationships went on. One he quotes Benjamin Franklin, who says the only reason two people talk to each other is the other person is waiting for his turn to respond. Right, and so when we're already thinking about our response, instead of reacting to what the person is saying, we've already, we've already into the conversation. Because you are not changing, as Terrence Real says in us, you need to change the reference point to the person that's triggering you. Right? This person, this situation, this thing that's triggering me, what does it mean to that person? But instead we blame. And we we blame, we finger point. You're an asshole, you're an idiot, bob, bob, this and that, and you become stuck. Right, how many people you know? We were talking about a friend of ours today who is completely stuck in their life and doesn't realize that they're so unaware of how much trouble they're causing in their family, they're causing in their workplace, that they're causing because you are responding.
Speaker 2:But also it's causing so much trouble for the person itself, right.
Speaker 1:You're responding instead of reacting. Right, right, right, if I get burned by fire, I'm not going to curse the fire out. I'm going to be like, well, let me get away from this fire, right, and I think that's the problem that folks have. Go ahead, lindsay.
Speaker 2:Well, it comes down to the awareness piece, right, that's what that is, because this is also a person who can monopolize a conversation for very long periods of time, and it's you sit there, and you sit there, and you sit there, and it's actually not even a conversation that, like anybody else could chime in on right so it's just one person telling a really long story that doesn't need to be told like a james bond villain monologue.
Speaker 1:Right got it, so this one as we get our final segment. It's a simple takeaway, right? So, lynn, since this is your topic, I'm gonna let you close it out. What do we learn here? How can we for our audience, listeners who are listening to this, what can they take away from this? What can they bring home?
Speaker 2:When you feel triggered, when someone activates you, when your nervous system is having a reaction, stop pointing the finger at the other person and point it back at yourself. Ask yourself questions. Oh, this is interesting. What's happening to me? How do I feel? Where do I feel it Right? But just being able to bring it back to yourself.
Speaker 1:Final thing. So the next time that someone really gets under your skin, we invite you to see it as a dose of medicine Bitter maybe at first, but ultimately healing. Thank them for the mirror. Turn inward with kindness, as Terrence Real says. Always react kindly but firmly, never with harshness, and give that old pain the understanding that it is always needed. The freedom on the other side is truly what the wise heart is all about. Absolutely Anything you have to add to that.
Speaker 2:No, I think it's a good place to end.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I see Veronica's on the porch trying to come in from the thunderstorm. But, with that being said, this has been Cleveland.
Speaker 2:And Lindsay.
Speaker 1:And this has been another episode of the Devil, you Don't Know.
