The Devil You Don’t Know
In The Devil You Don’t Know, Lindsay, Cleveland, and their guests discuss personal growth and development by taking chances and getting out of your comfort zone. Topics range from whimsical to serious and everything in between but are always relevant to growth and development.
The Devil You Don’t Know
The Window, The Car, and The Dress: Tales from the Parenting Trenches
Lindsay and Cleveland explore the messy reality of parenting through recent chaotic events in their household, from a crashed car and shattered picture window to prom dress drama and boundary-setting with young adult children.
• A car crash in the driveway leads to insurance claims and unexpected Enterprise rental experiences
• The Queen Mom's prom dress saga involves ordering twenty dresses and last-minute shoe shopping
• A well-intentioned furniture cleaning attempt results in a shattered custom picture window
• "Huckleberry Tim" tests boundaries by staying out until early morning and inviting unauthorized house guests
• Parenting wisdom across religious traditions shares common themes about children being both treasures and trials
• Children eventually recognize the value of parental guidance, even when it initially seems they aren't listening
• Effective parenting strategies include active listening, "when I feel" statements, and consistently enforced boundaries
• Creating neutral spaces for difficult conversations helps defuse tension and improve communication
Please email us at Gettoknowthedevil@gmail.com
This is Lindsay and this is Cleveland, and this is another episode of the Devil. You Don't.
Cleveland Oakes:Know, linz, what are we going to be talking about today? The trouble with kids? Oh my God, you know what? We actually recorded this about a month ago to the day in Vermont, and it was actually one of our more livelier recordings, I would say, and probably the universe probably erased it for a reason because I was going in on certain people, on the children. I was going in on the children, I was going in on Mrs Du next door. Oh gosh, yeah, about the children, about something that happened with one of the children.
Lindsay Oakes:So we'll just jump. Yeah, let's just jump in.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, because you don't have a lot of time today.
Lindsay Oakes:Summer is finally here. I'm so happy. I love the heat. The maker.
Lindsay Oakes:Maker be praised.
Cleveland Oakes:What do we do? Real quick, what did we do this week?
Lindsay Oakes:And before we just jump into that Well, we dropped the queen mom at sleepaway camp, which she loves, and I will say that since she's left, she's once again given herself away, because there's not been one dirty dish in the sink. Not one, not one dirty dish. I wake up and it's empty. I go to bed and it's empty and I've seen the boys cleaning their dishes.
Lindsay Oakes:Certain things are no longer missing in the house Right.
Lindsay Oakes:Like all of the snacks, yes.
Cleveland Oakes:So so we now know who the culprit is, but what else we got to also hang out with?
Lindsay Oakes:With Carlin and Peter. Every summer we try to go on the boat at least once we invite ourselves. So thank you, Carlin, for always, you know, accepting us, inviting ourselves.
Cleveland Oakes:And over many drinks and libations, we might have birthed the spinoff podcast. We won't say the name yet, but we might have birthed the spinoff podcast starring.
Lindsay Oakes:Yeah, it was a great time. It was really great time. We had a good time. But you know you always like to give things away. So, okay, in honor of what that podcast will be about, I'm telling you to stop.
Cleveland Oakes:That's it, I'm doing it, I'm doing it. But that gives people a surprise. It's something to look forward to. But this week's episode is the trouble with kids, and it dives into the real life chaos that parenting often brings from a shattered front window to a crashed car, a crashed car to surviving, oh my God. Prom shopping, prom shopping. These moments, while super frustrating and exhausting, often mirror the deep and complex role of being a parent. That is the truth, and so in this episode, we're going to explore the messy middle ground between discipline and grace, between rules and relationships, and how the sacred calling of parenting is echoed in many traditions around the world. Let's just get to it. I remember when we first recorded this, I called this segment the Window, the Car and the Dress because all of these things had happened on that fateful week. When we first recorded this, I called this segment the window, the car and the dress because all of these things had happened on that fateful week. So, linz, tell you, pick one of these stories and you tell the folks about it.
Lindsay Oakes:I'm going to start out by saying that, like I don't even get mad anymore, I'm just like all right, let's figure out a solution here. So this is the second time that the same child has crashed the car, Not out on the road Coming out of the driveway. The second time that he has crashed the car and he didn't just crash it a little bit.
Cleveland Oakes:No, he crashed it a lot of bit.
Lindsay Oakes:I mean it was, yeah, it broke through the metal of my front bumper and he came inside and said oh, I hit the neighbor's car when I was going to get the other one from work. And he said it's not bad, we don't have to tell her.
Cleveland Oakes:And I go outside and it's like her car is all crashed up. Here's the front bumper is like off the front and I'm like dude what the heck man.
Lindsay Oakes:Oh Lord it was. And you know I really he's been doing really a lot of favors for us, good guy. Normally he's been, you know, our own Uber service over here. So that was, you know, very frustrating because if you remember the last time that we had the car accident that he crashed the car backing out of the driveway into the target delivery man.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, he wanted to just drive off.
Lindsay Oakes:But also you put the car in when I asked you to wait till we were away, and then we had the whole rental fiasco, which is why I hate having to deal with insurance.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, but it actually worked out well this time. Um, but we'll get into a little bit the the. The biggest problem and I'm going to do a Geico commercial Uh, geico was the insurance uh handler in this and it was actually a really quick turnaround time. Did we have the usual shenanigans with enterprise car rentals?
Lindsay Oakes:uh, in uh what, what's the location? So I can crap on them oh in the Bronx?
Cleveland Oakes:In the Bronx, who's always trying Chester Road? We don't go there. No, we don't go there because they always try to upsell a car, Like give me what I paid for, Right. Every time you have an accident with these guys it's like oh well, we don't have the $50 a day car, but we do have the 125 day Lexus that you absolutely do not need $300 deposit before you even get there, which was not going to work for me.
Lindsay Oakes:All I'm going to say about that, before we segue into something else, is if you live in the Bronx and you own a car, you probably do not run any errands in the Bronx. Right, I do not run any errands in the Bronx. I love establishments with parking lots that are just 10 minutes from here in Westchester, so that's where I go, yeah.
Cleveland Oakes:So we ended up renting from the Enterprise in Tarrytown, which was a totally different experience.
Lindsay Oakes:It was fantastic.
Cleveland Oakes:Great experience there. Great experience there. That staff was wonderful, Got us what we needed, had us out in I think about 15, 20 minutes and that was a good experience, right.
Lindsay Oakes:So what else happened that week? That was the dress. Tell the folks about the dress. Well, the queen mom could not find a prom dress that you know was up to snuff for her, so she ordered about 20 prom dresses to the house, costing us a thousand dollars, so that she could try them on and model them, and not make a decision until the day before the prom.
Cleveland Oakes:No shoes.
Lindsay Oakes:The day of the prom I had to go shoe shopping with her because she finally chose the dress. I absolutely think that one of the worst things to do with teenage girls is go shopping for clothes. Oh my God, tell me about it, because they get sidetracked. She wants to go look here, look there, and then they end up in another department and she's got the friends with her and I'm like girls, no, let's go out of the mall.
Cleveland Oakes:if it's not a dress, we're not looking at it I want to say if I, if, if I was in the habit of popping gummies, uh, regularly, I think dress shopping would have been one of those moments. What was amazing is we went, uh, two places in person. And the first place that we went in person, these dresses were started for the one time that you're going to wear it, and all the other families were also flabbergasted. These frilly, glittery, diamondy dresses that you're only going to wear one time. How much did they start for a lens?
Lindsay Oakes:Oh, I think the cheapest ones were $ hundred dollars. But it doesn't matter, because I say that we don't spend that much money on something you're wearing one time, right right. So I don't really care how much you like it or not. I don't know if that might sound mean, but no it doesn't matter like it, enough for one night at the price of under a hundred dollars, because you're never going to wear it again and I in the, in the dress that she wore.
Cleveland Oakes:I bet you right now, if I, if I wanted to return it to Amazon, if it was in any kind of state, I could return it to Amazon right now. So that's a, that's a good tip out there for all of you folks. On a budget order, 10 dresses for like under a hundred bucks. Let the kid try them on and send the box in the back, send the nine back. Um, the last thing that happened and I'll tell this one is the window. Um, yeah, Lindsay, get us, get us started on that.
Lindsay Oakes:Well, I asked the boys to clean the front porch furniture for summer by taking it into the front yard and hosing it down. I did tell them you have to give them very specific instructions.
Cleveland Oakes:I did tell them you have to give them very specific instructions, super specific.
Lindsay Oakes:I did tell them to take all the cushions off and put them inside the house, because I just knew that these two buffoons would go out with the cushions and start spraying the whole thing down. So they did.
Lindsay Oakes:He took the cushions off and the other one, the older one, didn't want to get out of bed Because he was tired, tired 40 hour work, 40-hour work 40 hours a week, and so he didn't get up, and so then, you know, ben got upset and decided he would do it himself which was nice Lifting up a whole sofa and proceeding it to put it through the brand new front picture window that we've just replaced a huge, huge, custom-made three-piece picture window that we just replaced during the renovation yeah, and then and the contractor comes over and is like how did this happen?
Cleveland Oakes:and I would said in much bluer language gosh darn, if I know how it happened. But it happened. Um, and I remember you gave me a call. I'm just sitting down. You know, fellas, if you're listening to the show, and ladies too, you know that your salon time is sacred, it's, it's, it's like getting an emergency phone call as soon as you sit down to to get that mani pedi.
Lindsay Oakes:I hate even when people are on the phone in the salon.
Cleveland Oakes:And and I get this call from lens and it's like Ben just shattered the front window and I'm like how? And here's a good, good, good, good, good guy. So never going to talk about the college drop in in negative terms because he's a great guy, very helpful. Out of all the children, this dude is probably one of the most opinionated but also the most helpful of anyone here, and I will definitely say that doesn't always and I'm guilty of it too doesn't always do things in the smartest of manners, like when you have a chance to either slide a chair forward or pick it up, slide it forward, or pick it up, slide it forward.
Lindsay Oakes:Well, yes, so it's all repaired now and it didn't cost us as much as the whole window. So that's good, yeah, but let's also briefly, before we move on, talk about something that happened actually since we recorded that first episode. That got lost. Okay, with the Huckleberry Tim, oh, huckleberry.
Cleveland Oakes:Tim.
Lindsay Oakes:And how he believes that he can just kind of come and go as he pleases here and that we are actually the help, and that he seems to think that he pays the mortgage and that we were all put here. Okay, to wait on him hand and foot, but it seems like something that might run in the family.
Cleveland Oakes:We won't say any names, but we hung out with your cousins and they seem to have a similar problem with a similar person who lives for free in their house, who was like I need sir, this is an ingredient only household which it is over here too, which is always a complaint.
Lindsay Oakes:If you want something, you have to actually work really hard to make it. So a huckleberry Tim decides that he's going to invite a house guest here, oh yeah.
Lindsay Oakes:And I had to tell him that the guests because he is a guest here, because he doesn't pay any bills or contribute in any way, I had to let him know that the guests can't have guests Right, go ahead. I mean, first of all, let's just start by saying we own a really lovely little home it's little little being the key word here with five adult sized people in this house and two large dogs and three cats.
Lindsay Oakes:It is very crowded when everyone is home Super crowded. So I think that you know another adult size guest is really not working for us. So you know he did that and we had to send them off and then he somehow managed to coerce us into letting the guests stay.
Cleveland Oakes:Which the guy was nice and quiet he was nice.
Lindsay Oakes:But then let's fast forward a week when he evidently thought that he can go out and do whatever he wanted whenever he wanted. Okay, until, I don't know, on a Friday night he went out, and, or he came home on a Friday morning, I think, at 3 am. Then he came home on a Saturday morning at 4 am, and then on Sunday.
Cleveland Oakes:The day of the Queen, mum's graduation barbecue.
Lindsay Oakes:He came rolling in at about 7 am. He came rolling in at about 7 am and we had texted him to let him know that we would like to be having a conversation on the porch because we were awaiting his arrival. To which he responded Nebra, I'm going to sleep.
Lindsay Oakes:And I was like Nebra. We arely thinks that we that he's actually, I think he thinks that you know in some weird way that we're here to wait are to discuss the emotional labor, that being a parent carries the constant vigilance, the deep empathy, the test of wills, um, and the sheer physical exhaustion that it takes to be a parent.
Cleveland Oakes:we had so much stuff to do that day and for this guy to come home and now you have to do like something, you got got to do an extra task. So we're dealing with the broken window. Still, we're preparing the yard, I'm planning.
Lindsay Oakes:Grocery shop. Grocery shopping.
Cleveland Oakes:And now you have to deal with the inconvenience for somebody who lives for free in your house to have to discipline them Right. Thankfully we also had back. Biodad was here on the weekend also and also stopped by to have a conversation with him. But after the conversation that you had with him, the conversation that I had with him, the, uh, the guy you know, um, remember, I remember the, the gentleman, the black guy. Um, he rings the doorbell and he's looking for me, the canvasser, and he's kind of like, and then he's very glad to see another fellow black person in a white neighborhood open the door. But it's like do you realize that there's a white vagrant sleeping on your porch? And I'm like, yeah, that's my stepson.
Lindsay Oakes:And he's like bro, you okay, bro, like everything okay, because this kid is just like and it's like he's a homeless on the streets of the bronx yes, sleeping on the front porch, because we told him that he couldn't sleep all day and he had things to do to help the family, because it was his fault that he decided to stay out all night.
Cleveland Oakes:Yes, this, this, this, it was just such a scene. It was so funny. And the guy's like, bro, you okay? And I'm like, yeah, man, I'm like, yeah, I'm good. And then, on top of that, he after, after bio dad is like listen, huckleberry Tim, you're, your sister is graduating. This is a party for the whole family that everyone's here, everyone's coming. You need to come inside. Do you know what this dude actually calls me and asks me? He's like Cleve, do I really have to come inside? And I was like absolutely, your father, and this father and your mother has spoken oh, that was just ridiculous turned out ridiculous.
Cleveland Oakes:Turned out to be a good day. Couldn't, can't complain. Did turn out to be a good day, was a surprisingly good day, um, about family. But one of the lessons that I learned and and lindsey was right, right Is one of the struggles that that we've, that we've been having with him, is I've been trying to deal with him with a certain level of kindness, with a certain level of patience which, under normal circumstances, with normal human beings not teenagers and young adults would work, but my son, his brother, first thing, you know, hunt comes in the house and Hunt's like where's my brother? At Right, and so they have a conversation, and then Hunt actually comes back to me. Well, let's.
Lindsay Oakes:Let's just stop for a moment, because I would like to interject here, if I may Go ahead that I said to your son when he came in please correct me if I'm wrong, but if you behaved this way in your father's home, he would have pulled you out of bed by your Afro, correct. Correct, to which the kid replied 100 percent.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, yeah, a hundred percent.
Lindsay Oakes:And so he actually called me to this. I don't know why you're getting soft in your old age.
Cleveland Oakes:Because I just want peace. Right, it was the same thing that we talked about with your cousins where, where you know, where your, where your, where your cousin was like I don't know why you know Pete's so, so, so soft and it's just like, ah, you know, we just want peace. You know you get old and it's like young dad would be boxing with this kid, with you, and, and, and my sons would definitely tell you that, growing up with me, as I said, he pulled me to the side. He's like yo dad, this dude needs to suffer. And he was like one of the things I appreciated about you as a father, who was a single dad growing up with us in Bed-Stuy, Brooklyn, is you didn't want us to suffer, but you did not protect us from the decisions that caused us to suffer, and it was through you not protecting us that made us learn. And he was like dad. I really want to ask you like why are you protecting him so hard?
Lindsay Oakes:right. So now, now that someone else also no told you that now you've decided. Well, I also told you that I would move out if you couldn't. If you couldn't be on my side, I was going to take a hike and you guys could figure it out, and I'll come back in september and I would have gone somewhere really good for the summer. So, yeah, I didn't want to miss out on that yeah.
Lindsay Oakes:So now, now we've you know, let him know that he can start looking for a room rental, which is more, by the way, where we live than half of his monthly salary. So he was really not interested in that and I have to say he's been much more cooperative recently yes, he has.
Cleveland Oakes:I also think his buddy came over, whose buddy he does live by himself on a sandwich shop salary also probably was like my guy, like what are you like? What are you doing? Right, you have a good job, you have a decent job that pays a decent amount of money that you are pissing away because you're calling in sick every week and you're wanting to go to shows and you want to go to concerts and you are taking pissing away the goodwill of both, of all of your parents all three of them and this job. And I'm really, I'm pretty sure, because after that kid left, I saw like a change in the attitude. Is there still some of the sulkiness there? A hundred percent. But what I want to say is and I have, I see, I have this quote written down and I and I think you're going to agree with this Sometimes parenting feels like managing a tiny circus where the acrobats are emotionally unstable and the lions are driving the car.
Lindsay Oakes:Yes, yes, yes, I mean I do kind of feel like it's a tiny circus here. All the time. I always say to you I can't even believe the things that happen. And then I look at you and I'm like did that really just happen to us?
Cleveland Oakes:Really happened. But let's move on. Let's talk about like and I want to talk about like sacred scripture and guidance and parenting across all faiths. And I want to throw out a couple of quotes here. And I grew up Christian but I also believe, and so did you, lindsay. I also believe in that all scriptures are inspired of God right, and so I believe that, no matter what scripture you believe, or if you don't believe in scripture, that whatever you find sacred or holy is sacred and holy.
Cleveland Oakes:Proverbs 22, six says train up a child in the way he should go, and when he was and when he is old, he will not depart from it. The Quran in Islam says your wealth and your children are a but a trial. Wait, oh, ain't that the truth? Right, it's, it's. It's. It's a trial to make money and it's a trial to raise kids. Judaism tells children to honor their father and their mother and Buddhism and Hinduism teach. Buddhism teaches mindfulness and parenting and teach children to be compassion, and Hinduism teaches parental responsibility as Dharma or as a sacred duty to raise children in alignment with good moral principles.
Lindsay Oakes:But I would like to say that the common thing between all of these is that you can teach your children everything, but they're going to figure out like. They're going to take their own path. They for some reason do not want to listen to us, even though we've already made all the mistakes and done all the things.
Cleveland Oakes:Right, right, and what all of those scriptures mean, especially this definition from Islam. Your wealth and your children are but a trial. Tell us that children will test your patience. They will. There are 30 year old children I have colleagues that have. You don't want a 30 year old guest in your house, but there are children in their thirties still testing the patience of their parents in their sixties and seventies.
Lindsay Oakes:Oh, when I told this one that we wanted to move, he's like, yeah, to florida. He's like I will come.
Cleveland Oakes:I was like, but you're not invited that wasn't an open wasn't an open invitation, but despite the children being a test of patience right, much like your wealth, they are things that you will come to cherish and love, even though they're tested patients that will help us grow spiritually.
Lindsay Oakes:I do and I really do. I mean I love them all. I don't like them sometimes, but it's very frustrating to just have someone not listen and then wonder why nothing in their life is going their way Right.
Cleveland Oakes:And here's, and that goes back to what the Christian quote in Proverbs 22, six, which is guidance doesn't teach perfection. Right, and as I told you, Linz, you know one of the things that I, as an adult and I think you've probably seen it as adult, as much as we give our parents grief, because all of our parents were, as you like to say, all parents do what Screw up.
Lindsay Oakes:Oh yeah, we all, we give our. We give our children plenty of material for their future therapy.
Cleveland Oakes:I always say that yeah, but guidance isn't perfect, right, and I do say that, even when the child doesn't seem to be listening or doesn't seem to be paying attention, that there is that, that those seeds are being planted, right. Let's look at the difference in the college drop in, right, even though he had some experiences, he, he remembered as soon as he went to school, and he went to school with messy people, because one of the things you notice after him being away for two years is he immediately comes in, he cleans up after himself. Does he leave the electric towel warmer in the middle of the bathroom?
Lindsay Oakes:yes, every day, every day, every day.
Cleveland Oakes:It's annoying, but are his dishes clean?
Lindsay Oakes:Yes, and he does his laundry and he cooks for himself and he doesn't. And he'll do things without being asked, like empty the dishwasher or if there's clothes in the laundry, he'll throw them in the dryer. But he lived with a group of people and so he learned how you need to operate to get along with the people you live with.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, and one of the things that he said is that that he's like, oh my God, like some of these folks here must not have had parental training, right, and he was actually went back and he told me he went back and thought about all the lessons that you tried to teach him and that he was like mom was right, right. He said there was one conflict in school between a young lady and one of the young men there and that the kid was constantly not washing his dishes. And one of the young women found out and was like please, can you, just please, when you make a dish, can you wash a dish? And he was like the guy goes back. Well, now that you've investigated and found out, ha ha ha, you know why don't you wash the dish for me? And Ben was like that was such an immature response.
Lindsay Oakes:Right, and when you live with a group of people, you need to keep the space clean. I don't want to be cleaning up you know, hair off the toilet seat and your hair out of the shower and shaving clippings in the sink. I would like to just clean up after myself. So every time I have to clean up after someone else, it prevents me from doing something else that I would rather do.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, yeah, a hundred percent prevents what you'd rather do. The last thing is, as we, as we're running through this cause I know you got a couple of minutes left, so thank you for for being able to fit this one in with us. I know it's been very busy lately Is expert advice on building better bridges, and I do want to come back to what we talked about, where mothers and sons clash, but that can be a different episode on. Like better communication and families. What are some tips that you would give to our parents who are out there struggling?
Lindsay Oakes:Well, what I typically say is what I do is I get frustrated but I don't yell. And yelling doesn't work because usually what the children will do is try to match your tone and then you end up having a big argument, Huge argument, Right? So it's kind of for me. What I do is I try to figure out what I'm feeling when the kids do that Disrespected, unheard, not supported. The kids do that Disrespected, unheard, not supported. And you know, and I often, when the kids do have an attitude or something happens, I remind them that I cannot figure out why they might be mad at me in that moment, but if they have something that they'd like to talk about, I'd be happy to listen. But I'm not going to be subjected to the eye rolling and the sighing and the flipping of the hair or the, in the case of the queen mom, the uh. Remember when she used to pop her freaking combat boots up on?
Lindsay Oakes:the table and sigh and chomp on the gum. Oh my God, I just wanted to slap her eyes back into their place.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, and and and. What I have written here is active listening. As you said, reflect back what you hear right, without immediate correction, because we all want to make sure that we're heard. Use, when I feel statements right which is something that we've all learned in mental health counseling is never say you, say this is how, when you do this, I feel right, so replace you never to when this happens. This is how I feel. Create neutral zones. Kids are frustrating you, which we've all done, as my dad used to say, say, when we were frustrating him, I'd be hey, dad, where you going? I'm going to see a man about a dog and he would walk out the house. But go for a walk, go for a drive or do something together. That creates some space.
Lindsay Oakes:And I don't want to generalize, but sons often communicate differently and there's an exception to every rule but sometimes sons would want to go on a side-by-side walk or an active walk than be like in their face. Well, and you and I often go out to reset. Yeah, we'll go out and grab lunch so we can talk or go on a walk and do something just to get out of the space, because often when you are in a public space you react a little bit differently than you might at home, as well, Right and create boundaries with compassion.
Cleveland Oakes:So have clear expectations which are and this is what drives kids nuts which are consistently enforced, right. So it's not that kids don't want rules. Kids just want to understand what the rules are right. And so I worked a place where what was the rule on Monday wasn't the rule on Tuesday and then was back on the rule on Wednesday, and then we never heard of this rule on Thursday. As imagine that how frustrating that would be for you in the workplace. Imagine that in the home, these are the people that you live with right. So clear expectations, consistently enforced, and even though, when these kids are frustrating, the hell out of you, delivered with both uh, delivered clearly and with empathy, and promote emotional literacy. Help your children model the emotions that Lindsay said that you want them to model. If you're screaming and hollering and yelling and going nuts, then so then then that is the energy you're going to get back.
Lindsay Oakes:Right, absolutely.
Lindsay Oakes:Thank you.
