The Devil You Don’t Know
In The Devil You Don’t Know, Lindsay, Cleveland, and their guests discuss personal growth and development by taking chances and getting out of your comfort zone. Topics range from whimsical to serious and everything in between but are always relevant to growth and development.
The Devil You Don’t Know
Are You Together?
Shores of Nevis
From the white sands of Nevis, we find ourselves reflecting on a deceptively simple question: What does it mean to truly be together?
For us, an interracial couple navigating the rhythms of a blended family, this question surfaces in unexpected places – in the confused looks of airline staff separating us during boarding, in the puzzled expressions of theme park employees unsure how to categorize our family. These moments, often met with laughter now, point to a deeper societal confusion about what families should look like.
But more importantly, they reveal how togetherness is far more than physical presence. Many couples share homes, meals, even beds, yet drift apart emotionally. The relationship becomes a quiet coexistence – two people living parallel lives, disconnected at the heart.
Togetherness is Intentional
True togetherness isn’t passive. It’s active, deliberate, and nurtured daily. In our therapeutic practice and personal lives, we’ve seen the power of simple rituals:
- Check-ins that move beyond "How was your day?" to "How is your heart today?"
- Phone-free zones to reclaim the lost art of eye contact and deep conversation.
- Friendship maintenance, remembering the laughter and curiosity that sparked your connection in the first place.
Love isn’t always 50/50. Some days it’s 80/20. And the couples that last are the ones who show up even when they can only give a fraction of themselves.
Blended Families: The Art of Co-Creation
In blended families, togetherness is an evolving process. Different parenting styles, cultural backgrounds, and emotional histories converge. We’ve learned that creating new family traditions, rather than clinging to competing legacies, is key. Respecting each person’s past while building a shared present fosters unity and minimizes power struggles.
Togetherness means choosing each other – daily, imperfectly, and with grace.
So, the next time someone asks, “Are you together?” pause before you answer. Reflect on whether your relationship is about shared space… or shared souls.
As a wise couple once told us after 50 years of marriage: “It was 50 wonderful years… and 49 years of hard work.”
Are you doing the work to stay truly together?
Please email us at Gettoknowthedevil@gmail.com
This is Lindsay.
Speaker 2:And this is Cleveland.
Speaker 1:And this is another episode of the Devil. You Don't Know, live from Nevis.
Speaker 2:Oh, we had to re-record that because I actually talked over Lindsay the last time because I was so excited for her to do the intro. But, lindsay, what are we going to talk about?
Speaker 1:It was a surprise for me too. Yeah, I know I wanted to mix it up. You just shot your finger over in my direction, boom.
Speaker 2:Today we're going to talk about are you together? Yeah, in this episode we're going to unpack this layered question Are you together? It's, it's a phrase that, on the surface, seems quite innocent, right, but as an interracial couple in a blended family, it's one that we hear far too often, especially what really inspired Lindsay on this one last week is when, when, when I got sick and had to get taken off the plane where obviously the three of us are sitting together off the plane with him and we're standing there and they're like so, um, are you with him, are you guys together?
Speaker 2:and I was like no, I just exited the airplane with some stranger I've never met before never met before right, and there have been so many times in our lives where we've gone to the universal studios where the woman just didn't understand how we could be a family we could be a family it took her a very long time.
Speaker 1:She had to get a supervisor over to the gate because she just couldn't believe that we were all together. And then when we would wait in line for the rides, they would let us go and they'd be like sir you, sir, you wait.
Speaker 2:And I'm like, I'm with those folks. It reminds me of last year when we flew, uh, where you guys all got on the plane and then the gate agent holds me and they were like, where's your family? And I was like the white people that you just left on the plane and they were just like, oh my God, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. Or even worse, when I took Tim Huckleberry to the DMV, do you remember that Yep and the and the and my fellow African-American people did not believe that he was my stepson, even though I had his birth certificate, even though I had all his documentation? And they are like, well, how do we know that? You're just not a random guy bringing kids off the street?
Speaker 2:And I was like that would be quite the hustle. But when you came, it was, it was all good. But it's something that both fascinates and irritates us. But in the context, but in the context of what we're talking about today, it's not simply just those things, but it's also as a couple, right, folks, that when we work with couples, we ask them are they really together?
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely, Because most people are together but disconnected.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. So it's a question that we're going to flip on its head and we're going to challenge you. Folks that listen to our show is to ask yourselves are you really together in your marriages, your partnerships, in your families, right? And we're talking about connection, friendship and communication and what it takes to be seen not just by the world but by the people closest to you.
Speaker 1:But first, let's talk about this amazing.
Speaker 1:Let's talk about this I mean what a fantastic place this is. It is just, it is beautiful. Every morning we, we have a routine now, so it's about we're about 30 minutes away from our mile long walk on the beach out front and last night on the way to dinner we had to stop for a herd of donkeys to cross the street. Right, there's goats everywhere and yeah, what, just what a beautiful, beautiful Island. And I mean the people. Right, the slogan is Nevis nice. So you know, everybody here is really nice and very friendly and down to earth and it's just safe and beautiful and really very secluded place.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, we, we've gone to some really good restaurants. Um, originally, when I did the notes for the show, we hadn't gone to the golden rock in yet. But whoa, golden rock in. Wow, what a beautiful property that was. What a beautiful place. Tell, tell the folks about it. I think you studied the history of it.
Speaker 1:Well, I just saw all the signs on the way in, but it's, it's like an old uh plantation and I think it's from like the early 1800s, and it has over 40 acres of gardens. So you walk in. There's a lot of little buildings, all these old stone buildings, but you walk in, they have ponds and beautiful flowers and you can sit, have a drink, then go up to dinner at the restaurant. You can walk around there. I mean, it was just, it was fabulous. It was, it was so beautiful. The thing I'm blown away with. I know on vacation you eat a fish, but you know I'm pretty much a vegan through and through, excuse me. And everywhere that you go here has just the most fresh vegetables and they have tons of vegan options and even if it's not on the menu, they're like oh no, we can make it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, we you've never encountered one time. And we I will say this about other places that we've been to, even in America, uh, where, where we don't go to the local diner up the block anymore because they were like no, we can't make you um the grilled vegetables that you asked for, they, they, they. We can only do it this way in the egg, or on the burger right everyone here.
Speaker 1:Well, and it's, it's just. I know I've been on this kick before. It is not that hard to have a couple of vegan options on a menu. I'm not asking you to like whip up a seitan loaf or even have tofu, but like people are very happy, like I'm very happy to have a plate of veggies and hummus and a pita bread. Like I don't go on vacation to eat, I go on to vacation to relax, and so the having the option of a vegan meal is a great is a great is a great thing. And they're so flexible here.
Speaker 1:Barbados is also a very, uh, flexible, very vegan friendly place. But you're right, in new york it should just be easier. Yeah, like I can't stand going to a specific place in the neighborhood because they really have nothing, yeah, nothing. And then if they do give me a salad, often I feel like they put cheese on it and then I'm like no, and then they'll give it back and you could tell they just tried to pick the cheese off of it and there's like crumbles of cheese in it and things like that. So here it's nice. They know what it means to be vegan and they put out some really fabulous stuff.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I would say every restaurant we've gone to, and I'm going to name a couple more before we get into it, but they have all accommodated. Be it from indian summer, uh, be it indian summer it's fantastic, we're gonna go back up to indian summer tonight.
Speaker 1:Uh, for some for some takeout, or some sit there for some dine-in yeah, as I said as I uh an aside here, interestingly this is the first caribbean island that I've been to where there is such an indian influence and where there's so many people that came from India to live here. So because the other day we stopped at the Barefoot Beach Bar for a quick lunch and that place was fabulous. It was a sushi restaurant on the beach.
Speaker 2:Yeah, fabulous, fabulous, fabulous. Our friends that we met told us about him, so we walked up the corner and went there, and we could maybe go there even again for lunch today.
Speaker 1:But fabulous, fresh, fresh, everything for a salad, and yeah, very, very good. Yeah, lovely, lovely little island. How about drift?
Speaker 2:the other night.
Speaker 1:Oh, such a beautiful place Wow.
Speaker 2:All the artwork on the wall was so beautiful.
Speaker 1:And if you I read later I didn't realize this at the time but all the hats that are hanging on the wall, it's if you give them your hat, they give you a free rum punch.
Speaker 2:Oh, oh don't get any ideas with my hat. No, no, no, no, no, not that hat. That hat is very magical and special and will never oh no, I mean my, my tipsy hat oh no, that's not gonna.
Speaker 2:That's not gonna happen either, but but now that I know, and then, and, and so we went to indian summer. We went to drift golden rock was great, bananas bist, which we already talked about, was awesome. But I think this is an island, you know, it's a hidden treasure and one of the things I would say here, and everyone that we've met and every American that we've met here have been so fantastic, so wonderful Little community of folks that we've met and made friends with, and I would say everyone here is blown away.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm about ready to move here. Actually, I'm about to do the six and six.
Speaker 2:The six and six. Well, that's, that's the hope. The hope is is that we will earn enough money in the next couple of years that we can just buy a house. Buy a house, just be out of here and just and be good.
Speaker 1:And I don't really have a lot of demands. I? I two bedrooms, maybe three, definitely two bathrooms, lots of windows, vaulted ceiling, and the biggest ask I have are just mature fruit trees on the property well, you heard, the monkeys are terrorists. I don't, that's okay, I will watch the monkeys eat the fruit, and it would make me very happy yeah, I don't think that.
Speaker 2:I think that. I think that was just the salesperson just trying to get us to buy the timeshare here. Um, but what a wonderful Island. I really can't you know, I really can't express it enough. For young men that we met here with his family goes by. His name is Tim, so I'll call him his name, tim is said that he thinks the Island is going to blow up in a few years and is looking to buy some property here. I don't know.
Speaker 1:I don't know. I'm going to say I don't agree with that because Tortola and British Virgin Islands people say that about them all the time and are they busier than they used to be? Yes, but there's also not. Where do you put development here? Yeah, there's no big runway. Americans, especially, don't travel very much. So I don't, I don't agree with that because, yeah, you'll probably see some development, but there's only so much that you can do and most people want access to things when they go away, and there's very little access. I bought the tofu from the supermarket on the first day we were here and it's 10 days have passed and there's still no more.
Speaker 1:There's still no more tofu, so we're almost out of tofu. But you know, the point being is that people want to go places and get things and you can't really get things here. Yeah, yeah, but it's wonderful.
Speaker 2:But I love that I do, but the things that you get are enough of the things that you need.
Speaker 1:And I think what you and I want is relaxation, peace, solitude, that's you know. I'm not asking for upscale dining every night and fancy cocktails and restaurants. I'm happy with a beach chair.
Speaker 2:But the amazing thing about Nevis and Nevis, nice is the is the.
Speaker 1:Today I'm going to take you by Cleveland Gardens.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we're going to take a picture of some pictures of Cleveland Gardens later on today, but the one thing I would say, how it pennies beach bars, right, but then definitely before we get into the main topic, let's just talk about those bars down there Zanzibar, turtling Times, sunshine, lime and the Coconut, the Lime and the Cabal oh down at Penny's yeah.
Speaker 2:Nevis Peak Brewery. I mean whoa? I mean I have never gone. You know, it's as amazing as much as people like New York. New York is great. New York is wonderful. The Penny's Beach blows away anything that you would get on the Bronx Riviera, also known as Orchard Beach or Jones Beach, or any beach for that matter that I've ever been to in New York City or in the East Coast. It was one of the best beach bars I've ever, ever been to Well, the whole area there is fantastic.
Speaker 1:There's parking that was clearly built with intention. Yes, right, there's parking. There's a lot of beach bars. You can just wander around. I've been more on the club soda kick this vacation and I've really cut back on a lot of the tasting that I used to do.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, so it's good.
Speaker 1:But let's get into it, let's get into it.
Speaker 2:Let's get into our main topic. So our main topic is are you together? A double meaning and we'll go back to what we talked about eventually is what is it like for you, lindsay, when people assume just make it just from how we look, just assume that we are not a couple?
Speaker 1:Well, it's, it's. It's really humorous to me, like 99% of the time, because we're obviously together, Right and and so it's, yeah, it's, it's, it's humorous. I find it humorous because I just would never make an assumption about people based on just walking down the street, or I mean we get a lot of people that stare too. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, which always surprises me, that folks still still stare at us or wonder why, why we're, why we're not together. But what does that say about those folks? Cause I've met folks.
Speaker 1:Well, I think that people just pass judgment and make assumptions, that's most I mean. Everybody judges right.
Speaker 2:So yeah, cause I've met folks with the kids. Remember when the kids used to play soccer and I'm as black as and oh, I think I've gotten even blacker down here and there've been folks that have realized astute folks like the kids coach were like are you dad Right? And they were like, and even remember the young man who's in Pennsylvania, in school in Pennsylvania, that his roommate thought for the longest time that I was his biological dad, even though I'm as dark as I am. So there are folks that have common sense and realize that we are a family dynamic and that we're, we're together. But why is it that you still think that some folks still hold that? Hold that Like we'll pass some old white ladies, we'll pass some old black ladies and they'll look at us in like disgust, um, and it's weird.
Speaker 1:That is is. Yeah, that's very interesting. I, I, I think it just, I do just think people make assumptions and people judge and people can't see beyond right what they see on the surface, which is a huge thing. I talk about that.
Speaker 2:There's like a human being behind all of us yeah, and it's interesting because the family that we met in the wife is Renee, not Regina, even though Lindsay says that I told her Regina. They're an interracial couple, have been married for over 50 years and their daughter, their older daughter, is here and she's in an interracial relationship and they're wonderful folks, you know, like we've've sat, we've had conversations with them, we've talked about the struggles, um of it and it's nice to see them together as a family, you know I think if we had a kid together, people probably wouldn't assume as much.
Speaker 2:Yes, because the kid would look mixed yes, but when we're with what you ever notice that, when we're with my kids or when we're with hunter or whatever, nobody oh yeah, and wegmans remember someone thought I was his mom yeah, like people actually don't like they, they, they don't make that assumption, but it's just strange that that folks like still perceive that way.
Speaker 1:Right, we haven't really had that here, because this is a wonderful island actually the thing I really just love about here is everybody thinks you're from here oh yeah, everybody thinks can't you check your dna again, because, like, maybe there's an?
Speaker 2:in with the citizenship or something maybe my one of my cousins is from there. Everybody just assumes that I'm from nevis, um. But let's go. Let's move on from that segment to to. Let's talking about couples in general and let's flip the script about are you together? There's a great song that I wish that I had the copyright to, but I want you guys to listen to it. I actually sent it to one of my couples for homework. It's called Insanity by Gregory Porter and Layla Hathaway, and it's in the in the. What the song is about is like let's stop the games that we're playing. Let's stop this insanity before we go too far and remember that we're friends. And so what happens in couples when they're not together?
Speaker 1:Well, I think that this is something I'm seeing a lot with the couples that I work with. Right, I have one couple that's together right, they got the memo when they came to therapy. They do the work. They consistently check in if there's an issue. There's so many people that are just so disconnected because they're so busy trying to prove their own point and to be right on something that they cannot come together and they can never see things from any other perspective but their own. And I think that's the biggest problem with people not connecting with each other in relationships is they react to a situation, they take their perception of the situation and then that becomes their hard sticking point.
Speaker 2:Yeah, something that's improved for me in this relationship and I've taken a step back myself is we have a lot of difficulties typically when we come to the islands surrounding driving.
Speaker 1:Oh, yes, for sure, I'm just a better driver.
Speaker 2:And this vacation In the islands, and this vacation, I'm the one with the the islands, and this vacation I'm the one with the neva's license plate and I'm the one that did everything driver's license, driver's license, I meant to say driver's license and I'm the one that did everything. But you know what I just was like. Hey, you know, I'm gonna let lindsey drive and just let her be comfortable with it, and it worked right, even though I have 25 years of driving experience and I've worked for FedEx and driven all types of trucks with no mirrors and you know all types of vehicles and even during the pandemic, I moonlit at Amazon during my time in the office. You know what. For some couples that would have been like oh why are you still trying to prove me wrong, or whatever. But you know I relented and a relationship works by communicating Right. One of the things that I tell my couples is do you feel safe with this person?
Speaker 1:Right. Well, you have to trust your partner, right? Trust is the biggest thing. I will say yes, I do have trouble with the driving in the islands, but it's not because I don't trust you. It is because, for some reason, in these islands, they put these giant four foot rain gullies on the side of the road and they don't cover them with anything. Ok, so it's about six inches and you're in a hole, and you're not like in a little hole. Your car is going to flip on its side and that's, that's the. That's what scares me so much, is the the, those rain gullies.
Speaker 2:But the point is, is was more important for you to be comfortable than for me to be right, right.
Speaker 1:I just I mean I also like, and I mean I'm trying to even myself out when you drive. I mean that was a little scary of a drive last night to dinner, I guess for you guys.
Speaker 2:I mean, the locals are all zipping around me and it's okay, let them zip, but but the whole point is it's, it's. What I'm trying to say here is is being together means that the solution has to be one that arrives for both of you. Right that it has to be. You know that I have to feel comfortable, that you feel comfortable, and then and the vacation would not be enjoyable if it was me trying to prove my point for the entire time I'm a good driver, I'm a good driver.
Speaker 1:And it's also this like I was saying earlier, it's like people get so stuck on their point, the sticking point, and then they can't shift away from that, and that is the cause of like almost every issue in a relationship, Right, right right, and one of the questions I have is Are you showing up for each other?
Speaker 2:So, Lindsay, what does that mean for couples to show up for each other?
Speaker 1:I think what I told you last week is what I say to people is like there's going to be days where I can bring 20 percent and I need you to bring 80. And there's going to be days where you can bring 30 and I need to bring 70. Right, and that's what showing up for each other means. Right, I can pick up the pieces, I can pick up the slack when you can't, and I can give you what you need in those moments that you need it One of the lines in that song Insanity that I found is you know, even though anger may take control.
Speaker 1:Sorry, there's a little baby gecko running around.
Speaker 2:It's a friend, it's the friend who will make amends in the end. And what I always stress with every couple that we work with is where is that quality of friendship Right, like you need to be friends with somebody, to be together and growing as friends and not just as co-parents or co-managers. And so how do you help couples when they're in that vibe Right, when you realize like, oh, they're just like they're just going through the motions together. We know some people you know. You know that we feel like you know we. We've seen that in our friendships that they just coexist and they don't seem to have anything else outside of that.
Speaker 1:What I typically do with people is, when something happens, especially, I get them to pause, and so, if I have say this happened recently I'm not going to give a specific example, but I have a couple and they're struggling with something in the relationship and he made a comment about, you know, his perception of the situation.
Speaker 1:So then I stopped him and I said how do you feel about the situation? To the wife and she said oh well, I feel like a failure because I can't do this for him or give this to him and I, and then he immediately stopped because he never stopped to think about how she perceived the situation. Instead, he went into this whole tailspin, right, and this cyclical thinking about there's something wrong with me, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and she was internalizing it equally, but he never stopped to look at it and instead of her saying to him wow, this is how I feel, right, she got mad and it became this fight that lasted a week and came to therapy. And you know and it's people have to, you have to connect, you have to think about your other person's perception, you have to think about the other person's life experiences, sometimes before you speak, and I think that's something that you and I do. I mean, of course, we're therapists and we've done a lot of reading about trauma and things, so I think that's something that you and I do.
Speaker 2:I mean, of course, we're therapists and we've done a lot of reading about trauma and things, so I think we have a different level of an understanding when it comes to certain things, but I always try to think about what your traumas were and how it's molded you into who you are, and I know that you do the same for me and it's so interesting, right, the various couples that we've worked with and even various couples that we know in life, Right, and I've and I want to ask you a question is, when somebody comes to you and I've literally had people say this to you, right, that we haven't had a meaningful conversation or dinner or anything in weeks because just so many other things are getting in the way the kids, the job what would you say to those folks that are that are that are telling you that?
Speaker 1:that's their choice, right? We choose what to do with our time. We choose what to do with our time, and if your relationship is important to you, then you'll make time for a date. Yeah, you and I go on a date at least once a week, and we have busy weeks we do.
Speaker 2:there are days where you, you and the queen munn made me laugh because you didn't see huckleberry huckleberry tim for like like three days straight and we're all and we all live in the same house and I'm the only person that manages somehow to see everybody.
Speaker 1:It's like I see you, I see the queen mom, I see him, I interact, I take people around, but you also work from home right now, all the time.
Speaker 2:But there are days that the four of us literally just were in the house and we don't see each other, right. But that doesn't mean that. But that means that in Lindsay, thankfully, will remind me when I'm overworking or I'm sitting at the computer or I'm pounding away writing, you know, writing or writing notes, or writing a chapter to to one of the books that I'm working on, or writing some essays for my sub stack, she actually comes over and is like hey, you know what time to take a break, which I am, I am, I am gonna do, but you need to have intention right, and sometimes you just have to do nothing right right right, and you have to take that time for yourself.
Speaker 2:You can't get so wrapped up in things how would you talk about to blended families and this is this is a challenge that a lot of blended families and even non-blended families have where it comes to differences in raising and interacting with the kids. How would you get parents to realize that it is a team sport, right, that raising a family is a team sport and not a relay race where one parent is trying to prove themselves better than the other, because that's something that I've encountered in many families families that I've worked with and families that are friends with that you can see that the parents are trying to win favor with the kids. How do you, how do you, how would you correct that behavior in a couple?
Speaker 1:I think someone's trying to win favor with the kids because they can't win favor with their partner. That's what. That would be my perception of it. Right, Right or wrong, I don't know, but there's more. I tell everybody there's more than one way to do things Right. There's not only one path to the solution.
Speaker 2:Right, right. Well, a couple I worked with once, the example I gave to them and I was like, hey, you like to fly, right? I was like, I was like I was like you like to fly, right. So I was like, imagine, tell me someplace that you like to fly to. And they were like hey, man, you know, we like to go to Antigua. It's about a four hour flight from from New York. And so I was like, imagine if you get on that plane In two hours into the flight you hear the pilot and the co-pilot fighting with each other, fighting with each other profusely, like loudly, angrily. How would you feel? Would you feel comfortable on that flight?
Speaker 1:No, but I also don't feel comfortable at all when people fight anywhere in public, because I think that you should keep your business to yourselves and I think that you should communicate better.
Speaker 2:So what happens in those kinds of families. When you, the pilot and the co-pilot, the husband and the wife and wives out there, yes, you are the pilot, the husband is the co-pilot, I will admit that. But when the pilot and the co-pilot are arguing, how do you think the people in the family are taking that argument?
Speaker 1:I think it's confusing. I do. I've worked with families before and sadly, in some of them the kids are more mature than the parents or the parents will be mad at the child for doing something or for you know. You know, I think I had a family like this, where the parents would fight with each other and they would have the kids deliver the messages to each other.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah, tell your father this, tell your mother this.
Speaker 1:Remember that several years ago, and the daughter then wouldn't talk to one of the parents and she would tell the mom, go tell him this, go tell him that. And the father's like, oh, can you believe that? And I said, well, where do you think she learned it from? Yeah, and they shut up right away. And then I told her that she was excused and that really I just needed to meet with them because their behavior was the cause of all the problems in the family and they didn't like that.
Speaker 2:So they came for about two or three more sessions and then they just disappeared. Yeah, yeah, but that's because folks don't want to do the work.
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, he especially didn't. Yeah, folks and I felt like she just checked out and gave up.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but folks don't want to do the work. And here's the thing.
Speaker 1:right, that was a cultural situation too, because they were Muslim.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And so it was very hard, because I think the divorce is frowned upon so much that she was just willing to compromise her happiness.
Speaker 2:But if you feel stuck in a situation, why not work on the situation, and I know some things can be cultural.
Speaker 1:Because both people have to be willing to do the work, and that is what I say to every single couple. That is how people outgrow each other. I'm going to try to do the work on myself. You're not coming along for the ride? Ok, it's tolerable, it's tolerable. It's tolerable until it's not, and then, and then you get tired of the person because you're constantly right, and a lot of the times it's also that person who's growing and evolving. There's also some responsibility on them for what happens. Right, because often we go into a relationship and we're not authentically who we are. So we start doing things right.
Speaker 1:I have a client who's divorcing now, but she, from the get-go, just had a very unstable home environment and she married someone who had a great home environment and a close family. And but now that she looks at it, she's like I did all these things from the beginning, trying to be this perfect wife, but I didn't like. Now I don't want to do them anymore, right, and so I said, well, that's your fault, right, right, because when you make a choice to do those things and so it's expectations have to be clear from the get go. That's the biggest issue Expectations.
Speaker 1:This is, these are my non-negotiables. These are the things that I'm willing to be flexible on, but also it's it's the biggest piece is that when people start to argue or to disagree or disconnect, instead of shouting and pointing fingers, what they really need to do and this is a very hard thing for people to do, and you and I you have trouble with this too. I'm a little better at it than you, but I'm also a flight person and you're a fight so but it's like you've got to just stop and bring it into yourself and bring it back to yourself and say why is this specific situation bothering me right now? What is it bringing up for me?
Speaker 2:Right, right, yeah, I don't think a lot of people do self-examination. And that brings me into, like another example of something that I have not seen here at all. I I and I've looked around is and probably that's part of the remote nature of the Island that you barely have any internet is couples and families who sit across from each other at the dinner table, out in wonderful places and wonderful locations, and they're on the phones. So they're physically together but emotionally elsewhere. I'm not going to put anybody on blast. The one person that I did see was we were out to dinner I don't want to put them on blast and they had kids at the at the table with uh, with with iPads, which was like and headphones.
Speaker 1:So basically, like we're going to ignore you, now kids here, put this on here.
Speaker 2:Here you are in this beautiful restaurant in the jungle and here son, here daughter. You know, while we're all eight of us at the table and it was a big family, eight of us at the table the older kids had on headphones and we're like I don't know what they were doing, like their headphones, but they weren't present games.
Speaker 1:Yeah, ipads, playing games, watching tv, things like that. Yeah, I don't, I don't really agree with that. I think something I've been working on is just trying to be more present, right, and just be in each moment as it comes. And you know, I was very stressed before we left for vacation and I just don't want to return to feeling like that when I go back.
Speaker 2:So I have to make some shifts you know, jonathan Haidt talks about in his book the Anxious Generation, and one of the things that you see and that what I'm actually thinking about here with, especially with couples, is it bugs me out like how many couples that when we go out in New York City and, like I said, I haven't seen it here, but that's probably because there's barely any reception here, right, it's folks out to dinner and everybody's on the phone. Nobody's enjoying their dinner, nobody's enjoying the time with each other, and how, yeah, maybe there's not much to see in New York or Connecticut or Philadelphia or wherever you happen to be, but you can have conversations.
Speaker 1:You can have conversations.
Speaker 2:Here is is is awe Right here in nature is awe. Jonathan Haidt calls it awe walks, and we've been taking awe walks every morning. But think about it more than just an awe walk or an awe. When you're with your partner right out to dinner doing family things, you should be in awe of that person and making sure that your phone is away, which is something I work on from time to time. Right, yeah, you know I make sure, but I will definitely and I know I hope you've noticed that I will leave the phone in the car. Right, there'll be be times we go out to dinner. Phone is in the car, because I want to give you my full attention, because one of the things that jonathan hate talks about the phone, even the presence of it upside down.
Speaker 1:I heard that on a podcast recently. Even putting the phone on the table tells people that you're.
Speaker 2:They're not as important as the phone yes, and so as a couple, as a family and as a couple, it's this phone, and I've worked with people that have told me that they feel that the phone is more important to their spouse than they are, are you putting that phone away? Could you come to a place like Nevis, where there's barely any reception oh, I love that, yeah, where there's barely any reception, where the queen mom is hacking people's rooms so she is like wait, wait, I figured out a signal, did this room? I figured out a signal and I can get a signal from this room. Or are you enjoying not only your partner, but are you enjoying this?
Speaker 1:There's nothing that's happening on that phone, that won't be there in five days when you're back in America, right, and that's the thing about that and that's something that happens with couples too is I have a couple that said to me like they went out because I told them you have to date, they still don't have kids and you know they want to have family, but I'm like, you have to date each other, you have to date each other, you have to go out and do things. And so she said they went out to some brewery and they both sat there on their phones all night.
Speaker 2:I was like so you didn't go on a date.
Speaker 1:I was like you could have just sat on the couch at home for free and done that, and so they were like well, do you go on dates? I said yes, absolutely. My husband and I go on at least one date every week.
Speaker 1:And they're like well, what do you do? I was like, are you serious? I was like we go to sometimes. I said sometimes we go to lunch, sometimes we go to dinner. I said sometimes we just take a walk or ride our bikes. Sometimes we go to the grocery store at saturday morning at 6 am together and sometimes we just do an impromptu hey, you want to go sneak out and grab brunch? But I said you have to make time for each other. I said and I had said to them, I said we took last weekend. I said we took a ride 90 minutes north, sat at a vineyard, had a plate of hummus and a glass of wine and enjoyed the view and enjoyed each other's company, and then we drove home.
Speaker 2:One of the things when we met Rich and Renee, who's the wonderful couple that we've met, and on their 50th anniversary, here is the first thing she said when I said congratulations to your 50th anniversary, and she was like 49 years of those were very hard, right, but they were hard but they were worth it, right? Unfortunately, we watch a lot of TV. We watch a lot of romance movies. We watch, we read a lot of fictional books about love, and love is hard work.
Speaker 1:It's yes, it is hard work. It's hard to love yourself, so imagine what it's like to love everyone else around you right, with all the flaws that are what we see in people immediately.
Speaker 2:Right, right. One of the things as we move on to our final segment, which is solutions, suggestions and how to actually be together, one of the things that I've taken away from from from from my mentor, jack Canfield, is he does weekly, he does weekly check ins. He does weekly check ins with his wife, right, and at the end of the week Jack says at the end of the week, he does what is called a download, and this is what I've started suggesting to my couples who have problems that have a lot of communication issues hey, if you don't talk all week, spend some time on Friday night. Jack takes his wife to dinner every Friday night. They sit, and on Friday nights he'll ask her how did the week go on a scale of one to 10? And he said there's some weeks that she looks at him and she's like, yeah, there's a six, jack. And instead of getting offended, right, which which couples do?
Speaker 2:When I set this couple, well, why'd she give him a six? Well, she gave him a six, obviously because she wasn't happy with the week, and so, instead of him getting offended, he was like OK, honey, why a six? Right? And so why is it important to do a weekly check in for you, right. What does that?
Speaker 1:mean, well, you and I do almost a daily check in. I always check in on you, you check in on me How's your day? That's something I got us into a while ago because remember, remember, you'd come in with like a story and blah, blah, blah, and I was like, oh hey, lindsey, how are you today? How did you sleep? How was your work day? What's going on? And you were like, oh right, but it's the. It's important because it also shows you where you can improve as a partner, and we can all improve. I had this very funny thought yesterday, like it made me laugh. It was like in the middle of the night I woke up to get some water and I thought I probably like annoy you sometimes, because I know sometimes you annoy me. And so I just like had this humorous moment where I was like, whenever I get frustrated with you, I'm like man, I think he's just quieter about his frustration, where I'm a little more vocal.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, I just don't say I, just don't say anything, I just don't say anything. So I'm glad you realize that I just had like a funny, funny thought about that last night.
Speaker 1:I don't know if it was just because, like, you were really tired last night so you were being really quiet and you know, I'd asked if you wanted to drink after dinner. You're like no, no, I'm just, I just want to relax, I'm tired and I'm like. And then I kept being like are you okay? Do you feel okay? Because I was worried about you and I could tell you were kind of getting annoyed. You're like I'm just relaxing and so you know, when we check in with each other, it gives us a chance, right, and everything that you have to say about your partner. This is another thing I tell people, I tell couples all the time. I'm always like I can call my husband in the room right now and I'm sure we could go back and forth about the habits that we have that drive each other crazy. And then they just laugh. I was like because, for everything that you don't like about me, I could find one thing I don't like about you, right, and that's going to be every single relationship.
Speaker 2:But intentional conversations are important. Right, no phones, no distractions, and it's what you said. It's asking those critical questions how are we? What do we need? What are we celebrating? What are we sad about? Right, right, you know as, as Grandma Jean once told me when I went over a house after you and I had a fuss early on in our relationship, she's like baby, get the hell out of my house, because you love your wife like you love yourself and you treat your wife like a precious jewel. Right, which brings us to this idea of friendship. Why is being friends, lindsay, a critical factor in being together in a relationship?
Speaker 1:Well, when you have, when you're friends with somebody, you enjoy their company or you wouldn't hang out with them, right? And so you do things that you enjoy together, you talk, you talk about the good things, you talk about the bad things. You lean on that person when times are challenging and it's important to be. I mean, I always say you're my best friend, right, like I can come to you and just say I had a really terrible day and I don't need anything from you but a hug, but I just wanted to sit and tell you about it, right? Sometimes I just pop into the office where you work and I sit down and you're like what are you doing? I'm working, I'm like I'm just visiting, right, but it's just continuing to talk to each other and to communicate and to just build the bonds right, don't do so.
Speaker 2:The friendship factor don't stop dating, right? It bugs me out when people like you still go on dates with your wife and I'm like, yeah, what do you do? Well, we just sit home right and like okay.
Speaker 1:And that's exactly why you don't like each other that much. Because if I sat at home all the time, first of all I would go crazy. I don't. I told you I don't know how people do a staycation Like. I couldn't call it a staycation. I would have to call it like cleaning out the house or something Right. And if you're sitting in the same place doing the same thing all the time, it's not going to be enjoyable. No, and when you're at home, there's always things that are looking at you. You ever notice when you're working, you're like, oh the dryer just dinged, I guess.
Speaker 1:I'll fold that real quick. Oh, I'm hungry, let me go do this. And then you're like oh, the dishwasher's full. Well, while it cooks, let me empty the dishwasher. Right, we never really get to just be present with each other.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, we'd be curious, ask questions, find out about your partner. You know they're a person too Right and and and I think what happened there needs change over time. Yes, you know one of the things I'll say once again about Renee and Richard literally friends, they're sitting on the beach, they're with the grandchildren, they're with the, you know, with the, with the other in-laws with the other with the other in-laws, with the other, with the.
Speaker 1:You know, tim's mom is here, everybody's here. We did have a good laugh, though, yesterday. Sorry to ignore you, um, interrupt you. I'm sorry, not ignore was that they had made a comment about messing up their daughter, who's like 11, and and I was like, oh, I've already apologized for my kids, for all the material I've given them for therapy. And the woman looked at me and she goes yeah, I mean, my parents gave me quite a bit of material for it too, and I was like you know what?
Speaker 2:We're all just doing the best that we can. Do the best that we can.
Speaker 1:But if, when, you can find the humor in these things too right, yeah, don't take yourself so seriously.
Speaker 2:Right, and I think that's what happens with couples. If you took yourself seriously, or if I took myself seriously all the time, then it's like why you married to this miserable person. Right, right, you know, you know, it's like a morrissey song, with one of the lyrics is how did I end up with this kind of person whose sense of humor grows gradually worser?
Speaker 2:right right and it's like find the joy in life, find the joy in each other and continue that friendship factor. I want to move on to to blended family talk, right, what is it about? And this is not even just blended families, this is families. This is what tears families apart. Also, not even just blended families is that I have one style like we, you and I. Let's use you and I, for example. Right, we come from two completely different styles of families that both have their strengths and both have their weaknesses in their own way. Right, but if we did not learn to blend those two styles together, what would have happened to our family?
Speaker 1:Well we wouldn't have made it Right Right In the beginning. It was very challenging. You parent very differently than I parent Right and you know you could see the flaws in my parenting and I could see the flaws in your parenting, right and right. But we couldn't come together and figure it out in the beginning Right as a cohesive unit, and we've worked on that. Yeah, it's very hard, I think in regards to blending the family and the, you know, racial identity of everybody is very interesting for us because we are raising the kids in very inner city areas, are raising the kids in very inner city areas and so the kids are very used to having people of every color and every ethnicity around and so, interestingly, like none of the kids, friends have ever even looked twice at you. Oh, never never.
Speaker 2:They think I'm super cool, but so you are. I try to be, I try to be. But it's really important to talk about open, open communication around kids and dynamics. Right, you also need to create a spare, a shared space for tradition and we all have our inside jokes and stuff and we need to create family values, not just rules, right, one of the things and one of the things that we do Right which we'll get back to once we have furniture again is the kind of open door Sunday dinners, right, we're a couple of times a month.
Speaker 1:If you're coming to dinner, you just let us know so we can prepare the food, and it kind of keeps the door open for people Come and go. You're welcome here, right, you can't live here, but you're welcome here, and if you really needed to live there, you could some, some of them could, but you know it's you. You have to create these things together as well, right, and your family never really celebrated holidays because of the religion morning, but we celebrate them, and not in a religious way. But we've also created all of our own traditions around this. Yes, yes, right, and so it's like you can take the things that you do or you were doing and you can do new things. You don't have to be afraid to try new things, or, you know, you were always like, oh, I don't celebrate holidays.
Speaker 1:I don't celebrate holidays and I was like well, we do so you can celebrate them with us. And in the beginning you were like, no, no, no, no. But now I just give you a list of gifts that I want and they magically appear in the month of December.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and they magically appear. But that is something that's important, right? So you remember already what's for next year. I thought we were the house of Nevis that I'm going to buy.
Speaker 2:That's Christmas, that's even better than boom, boom, all right. Well, one of the things I grew up with, jehovah's Witness, and one of the things in, in, in, in, in, as, and as many things, as many ways as I would tell you that experience kind of screwed me up is, but it's like. It's like any family, right Is. There are things that I learned that was extremely beneficial in there and one of the things that I did learn extremely beneficial.
Speaker 2:I remember there was a watchtower and wake magazine that talked about families and raising families, and it did bring up the point that you, as a husband, may have come from a gregarious, warm family where everybody hugs and everybody talks, but the woman that you fall in love with or the person that you fall in love with, might have come from a family that everybody was distant or remote or highly critical or whatever, and you have to learn how to blend those styles.
Speaker 2:It's right, you're not telling your wife to change because she's not telling you to change, but if your wife that comes from a very serious family and you came from one that's gregarious, then you need to figure that out. Correct, right? And that brings us to a point is when is I'm going to talk about a drift check, right, how can you find? Because I explained to couples that it's not like a sudden schism, right, it's not like you slowly, it's not like you suddenly fall in love out with somebody, it's like you slowly drift. And then how do you do a drift check? How would you tell couples to check for drift?
Speaker 1:I think the problem is is that none of the supports are set up in the first place to actually get you to remain close with each other. Yeah, right, because what we do is we fall in love with the person that we meet initially and I always say, right, it's fun, it's like a honeymoon, there's great sex, you're going out on dates all the time and there's none of the responsibilities of living together. Then you get together and you've never discussed any of these things about. This is what I do, this is what your role is going to be, this is where I need support. You can say to your partner this is what I need, support, and we don't do those things, and so that's where the rift comes in, and it comes in very quickly for people.
Speaker 1:Right, we have to give people a chance. You have to get past that sort of honeymoon phase that people call it, and you know it's interesting because people will say to me there's somebody in particular who said to many times to me and it almost came across to me as, like, it came across as very insulting was well, you guys are still in the honeymoon phase. Well, you guys are still in the honeymoon phase, and I'm like, yeah, but it's been five years. It's not a honeymoon anymore. We work at it.
Speaker 2:We work at it. I don't, you know, work at it. Do we always like each other every day? No, do I always like myself every day? No, um, but it's like. It's like. It's like Renee said it is. It was 50 years of a wonderful marriage, but 49 years of hard work to get here, right, and every couple that I know that is happy will tell you that there are days that they are completely unhappy, right, but those couples are realistic about the hard work of marriage.
Speaker 1:Right, and that's what I love. I have one couple that I just love, love, love so much because they do the work and they've come. And it's funny because they do the work and they've come. And it's funny, and like they came and once they had a fight over something really silly, like the ways that he put a glass in the cabinet or silverware in the drawer, and so she sent him pictures of how it should be organized. And they came and I was like all right, y'all. I was like let's wrap this up and clean up this argument and move on. I was like because he has to travel for work, so I was like let's stop this and how are we going to? I said, forget the silverware, forget the glasses, forget the mess in the house. I was like what are you two going to do to get them together before he leaves tomorrow? What is this really about? Right, and it's and it's and it's. And that's the thing that I think is so that that they've done such good work on is that they look at, they realize that they're.
Speaker 1:One of them had a really bad family relationships. One of them had like a divorced family where he had to take over raising the siblings and you know, and he was, and then there was, like often, nobody there. The mom was an alcoholic right, and so they understand the pieces of each other and that's what I was saying earlier and that's why their relationship is successful. Like they come to me for a tune-up, they don't come to me because they need to be, you know, getting answers or me solving a problem for them. They come because that's what they do.
Speaker 2:So, as we wrap up and we get this as final segment, which is a challenge to our listeners, when you ask a partner, are you, are you together? Or when you ask, when we ask ourselves, are we together, in what sense? I can tell you I mean it in the sense of a soul yeah, I was going to say that.
Speaker 1:A soul connection, yeah, yeah, absolutely no, I agree with you. 100, that's really all there is to say about that. That's what it means to be together. It doesn't mean to be physically in the same room together or still married like are you connected?
Speaker 2:yes, and and as we go through seasons of life. And when we go back to the lovely couple again, they went through 50 seasons of life together, right, and that meant that, you know, renee talked about her life, she talked about being a school teacher, she talked about being a physical trainer and all the various things that she's went through in her life. Just as you're going through changes, you need to make sure, as you go through those changes, that you're also connecting with your partner as they go through changes, right? You know, unfortunately, what we've learned in this happily ever after culture. You know we do not take the advice of the Bible. Which the Bible says. The apostle Paul says marriage is tribulation in the flesh, right, which means he didn't say it was difficult, he didn't say it was hard. Paul says it is tribulation in the flesh, which means that marriage is a very, very, very, very, very difficult thing for everyone involved. Yep, but 100 percent Not an unhappy thing If you are willing to work at it.
Speaker 1:Well, if you're not willing to work on it honestly, you shouldn't get married Right, Shouldn't?
Speaker 2:even date. You shouldn't even date. You shouldn't even date, which a lot of people don't do is you shouldn't even date. My closing thought on this and I'll let you definitely get the final word on it, but my closing thought on it is is together isn't about how you look to the world, right? It's like Grandma Jean told me together is do you treat your partner? And you know like you treat yourself, like you treat yourself right, and whether people get it or not, whether they, whether they assume or whether they misunderstand about the quality of your relationship, your connection with your spouse, the person that you've chosen to be with, is sacred. So next time someone asks you if you're together, your answer should be yes, more than you should know, linz, anything else.
Speaker 1:No, I think that was really the perfect way to wrap it up. Yeah, I see what's on your mind today. What?
Speaker 2:Well, we're going to the beach and it's a wonderful day outside. We got four days. Yeah, it's actually about time for us to go take our walk. Yeah, we got four days left in this wonderful island. The housekeeper has come by several times, probably asking do you need cleaning? Can, several times probably asking do you need cleaning? And can we talk about that for a minute? Oh, yeah, let's talk about that smokes.
Speaker 1:I don't know if it's that we're slobs or she's very thorough. No, because our neighbor said the same thing two and a half hours she's been cleaning our room.
Speaker 2:I I've never had such in-depth clean. We, we gotta, just I gotta go get some ecds, um, and just leave like a hundred dollars in cash, which I will do, a hundred dollars in cash for this lady, for her, for her 10 days of of diligent, diligent cleaning. Where she has gone, like Whoa, I mean, I swept and I don't know where she found her.
Speaker 1:Oh, my Lord, I mean two and a half hours. The queen mom was trying to sleep in that day and she's like she's texting me. She's still here.
Speaker 2:Yeah, she's still here. I don't know what she's doing. She's still here.
Speaker 1:I mean our neighbors and a couple doors down at the beach. Yesterday I was like is your cleaning lady? And they were like. They were like, oh my God, I thought she was done and I went back washing our laundry. I was like, I don't know, I need to have our cleaner at home. Take a lesson.
Speaker 2:Oh my God what. And our cleaner at home is good, but this was the most diligent that. I've seen. But with that being said, this for now, I think maybe we'll record one or more, two more out here, maybe I think so, but this has been live from Nevis, from Nevis, from Nevis. This has been Cleveland and Lindsay, and this has been another episode of the Devil you Don't Know in Paradise.
