The Devil You Don’t Know
In The Devil You Don’t Know, Lindsay, Cleveland, and their guests discuss personal growth and development by taking chances and getting out of your comfort zone. Topics range from whimsical to serious and everything in between but are always relevant to growth and development.
The Devil You Don’t Know
The Gravity of Unspoken Expectations: Why Your Partner Isn't a Mind Reader
Cleveland and Lindsay return after a long break to tackle the frustrating phenomenon of silent scripts in relationships and why expecting your partner to read your mind sets you both up for failure.
• Silent scripts are unspoken expectations we have for our partners but never communicate directly
• The absurdity of expecting mind-reading from partners when we'd never expect it in other relationships
• Covert contracts create one-sided agreements where we expect something in return without expressing it
• Authentic communication about needs and expectations is crucial from the very beginning of relationships
• Personal worth shouldn't be tied to productivity or capitalist metrics of success
• Family expectations often clash with personal values, creating emotional dissonance
• Setting boundaries allows respecting family traditions while honoring personal authenticity
• Couples who regularly date each other and maintain connection fare better long-term
• Money doesn't buy happiness but can make things easier
• Book recommendations including "No More Mr. Nice Guy" by Dr. Robert Glover and works by Brené Brown
Please email us at Gettoknowthedevil@gmail.com
You know, I really hope that this is the last time that I say this, but after a long, long, long, long break, but for good reasons, we are back with another episode of the Devil. You Don't Know. This is Cleveland and Lindsay, and what are we going to be talking about today?
Speaker 2:Lindsay, Silent scripts and relationships. Silent scripts and Expecting your partner to be a mind reader.
Speaker 1:You know, that's one of the things I think that drives us both crazy as therapists is this idea that we sit down with couples, and couples are frequently like oh you know, he's supposed to know, he's supposed to know or she's supposed to know, like automatically what's on my mind, and I'm always baffled as to why people believe that you know.
Speaker 2:Well, I think the other common theme is that people think about their perception of the situation, but they don't ever stop to think that their partner may be perceiving the situation in a different way, and I think that's really important.
Speaker 1:It goes back to a lot of stuff that Gottman talks about, but before we get into the main topic, what the hell have we been up to that we? We've disappeared. I feel like we haven't recorded for a couple of at least a month, everybody except me had the flu.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, it was crazy bro I was.
Speaker 2:I managed to stay well yeah and well, we're getting ready to go to nevis, st kitts and nevis for two weeks. So we have been very busy just planning that, doing things to get ready. On the weekends Everybody but me had the flu, thank God, because I had it before Christmas and it's just been busy because the queen mom is graduating and she has a lot of social obligations Tons of them and so we've been just we've been busy doing that. I mean, I don't think that we've even spent a lot of time together no, what's funny is prince valiant, who is now huckleberry.
Speaker 1:Tim has now transformed into prince valiant now that he's moved home and and he's got all these ideas and demands he's behaving well, but he is behaving well right, not really complain? I can't complain. He's got a job. He's that this shout out to Trader Joe's. You know I helped him get that job at Trader Joe's but he actually really loves it.
Speaker 2:And he brought home those viral totes. Oh yeah, Without even asking. I mean, those things are crazy, right? People are just reselling them for like a huge amount of money.
Speaker 1:I think they're like $3.29 or not even that much. I don't even think they're that much of a bag and it's just crazy, the stuff that.
Speaker 2:It's like a teeny, tiny canvas tote bag and it was $2.99. And we have all the colors, multiple of each color, and people are lining up to get these things.
Speaker 1:And I have no idea what to even do with it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but you know, that's something we can talk about in an episode, because look at this kid right, who struggled so much with ADHD, right that. I mean he is like a genius, he has a superior IQ, but his ADHD has impacted him so much that it's hard for him to sit in a classroom and hard for him to study. And here he is at Trader Joe's and he's like I love this job, he loves it.
Speaker 1:He's got a little lady friend, he's got a whole crew of of one of the things that worried about, uh, prince valiant when he moved home. Uh, was that man? That dude can sleep. I mean, that guy like does power naps, that he's tired from his power nap.
Speaker 2:Tell me a little bit about that well, he just sleeps all day, so it's just ridiculous when but I think part of it is he's trying to like avoid doing any chores around the house, so I think he just goes into hiding.
Speaker 1:I've had a conversation with him about that and part of it is a little bit of hiding, but also part of it is just teenage sleeping, because we talked to our friends Lori and Dave and they talked about their son.
Speaker 2:He won't work a shift before 9 am. Yeah, I guess it's, but you know, I think here's the thing. I can't, really I can't be upset about it, because this is the first job that he's been able to hold, and I think it's just that he's so busy there unloading trucks, collecting carts, breaking down boxes, being on the cash register, and it's so busy there that he is busy the whole time and it just feeds his brain in a way that he needs to operate.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I didn't mean for you to put him on blast, because I don't think he knew that. You knew he had a little lady valiant. Well, I mean, you know, the thing that blows my mind is that he tells you these things and thinks like you're not going to that.
Speaker 1:I'm not going to say anything.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the queen mom said the same thing. He's like did he really think he was going to tell your husband and you weren't going to know? So, yeah, it's very interesting. But yeah, I mean, we're going to head to St Kitts and Nevis while we're flying to St Kitts and then um.
Speaker 1:the sexy taxi is picking us up.
Speaker 2:Yeah, not Clarence. First it was Clarence, but the concierge said that sexy taxi will be meeting us outside the airport and putting us into a water taxi, where then tin tin, tin tin will meet us oh, this sounds like this sounds like no idea what's happening, and then the concierge happened to ask if I was coming all by myself, which made me a little nervous so I was like we booked the water taxi for three people, so, no, I'm not coming alone, um, but yeah, we've just been packing and getting ready and it's it's been really, really busy.
Speaker 2:The queen mom's school is closing, right, you know, the funniest thing about the queen mom is now having a senior and seeing all these things that seniors do now that they didn't do when we were in school, right? Um, remember the senior sunrise where we had to have her in the park at like 5 am in the fall, and now they have something called the senior assassin.
Speaker 1:A senior assassin. Yeah yeah, they're doing like a water fight and each person has a target.
Speaker 2:It's like a water gun fight and they have to wear goggles and carry these water guns to school and there's all these rules and everyone is on a map of everywhere they're located. So I mean yesterday we took her for the vacation Manny and Petty and she was worried that someone was going to come in the salon and shoot her with the water gun to kill her in the game and I was like God, I hope that doesn't happen because that's going to reflect very poorly on me in the nail salon and I like to go there.
Speaker 1:Here's here's the thing I think 30 years ago the kids had enough ambition to actually go out and do that. Today I don't think the kids I'm not worried about it Right, because that is part of the reason why they had to change from from the one on one mode to the purge mode, because not enough doing it. Hey, kudos to you. I told my stepdaughter, I told the Queen Mum, you need to watch every John Wick movie there is so that you can prepare for this ultimate assassination team. And being the stepdad I am. When she said that her friend was at the Ardsley Diner the other day I almost wanted to get in the car and drive her over there.
Speaker 2:Except, we had a nail appointment, but we had a nail appointment Right and her friend Rosie came over yesterday and Rosie had to wear the goggles and brought the water gun over because nobody is safe, and then they started. It started out as you have, like one person who's targeting you and then you're targeting a person, so it must be this like random selection. But then enough people weren't dying Right Game that they had to call a purge.
Speaker 1:Oh my God, she was having a freak out. We come home from school the other day and there's a black car sitting in front of the house.
Speaker 2:And I'm thinking you know our neighbor's car just got stolen, so you're just watching to see if it's the same people scoping out the sitch.
Speaker 1:I'm worried for real life reasons, even though he got his car back about the poor somebody. His car got stolen and these guys like right in front of our house, right in front and these guys sold the car to a poor, unsuspecting person that is just asked out of his money. But at least our neighbor got his car back.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, he went to register it and got arrested for trying to register a stolen car.
Speaker 1:So so crazy. But so we come home and there's a black car. I meant to tell you this, so so. So Friday we uh no, it was, it was a day that you weren't home. So Wednesday, we come home and it was a black car just sitting in front of the house and she was like freaking out because she's like I don't know what is the cleave cleave, I think that might be my assassin. It could have been. I mean, it sat there for a long time suspiciously, or they were scoping the next car that they were going to steal, I don't know, I hope it's not one of ours, but hopefully it's not one of ours I have.
Speaker 1:I have recover on my car. So if you do come steal my car, hey, I feel like mine's five years old now. So nobody's interested in my car and mine. I've been told by Ford that if you do actually successfully steal it, not only will they pay for the full amount of the car, but they will also reimburse me an extra $10,000. So I'm not worried about my car. I'm not worried about my car getting stolen.
Speaker 2:Let's talk about anything else that's been going on. Have you eaten anything good that's vegan lately? How about those badass loaded fries I made you?
Speaker 1:Those loaded fries you made a couple of weeks ago, before we which we're having for dinner tonight. Yeah, those were delicious. That was a surprise. Um, I thought, when you first made it and I was just going to put ketchup on it, you were like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, bro, what are you doing? Like, what are you doing? No, no, this is a whole thing. And so I had a whole thing. Yeah, so tell, tell us the folks about what it was.
Speaker 2:So I'm I love clean food. Dirty girl Molly Patrick she's like my girl and you're an episode.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, I'm gonna be on the podcast, the clean food dirty girl podcast, coming up, so I've been doing her drop it club uh this year and I. She has a whole food plant-based weight loss group and that's something I've been pretty open about is that I would love to lose some weight and lose it for good, instead of going up and down, and I've lost about 25 pounds. That was my goal before vacation was 25. And then another 25 before we go to the British Virgin Islands for most of the month of July. You like how I just book vacations without telling you.
Speaker 1:It's like listen. One of the great things about working for yourself is you can just go endless PTO anywhere you want to go, but also one of the bad things is you're not getting paid while you're doing it.
Speaker 2:And I just love to um whenever you have a couple of drinks in you. I love to chat with you about the extended fake pay because you always agree.
Speaker 2:You always agree. So most recently we were in uh up at Geneseo doing the college tour with the queen. Mom and you'd had a. You'd been over-served. Give the folks the clean version, please, mom. And you'd had a. You'd been over served. Give the folks the clean version, please. Yes, you were over served. And and then I just got you to agree to stay in this lovely ocean front room in virgin gorda in july and just booked it right up. Yeah, just boom, boom, boom. And then all the time when we get places, you're just like.
Speaker 1:I must have agreed to this when I was over that's what I said last year when I was looking at the bill for the airbnb in naples.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the four thousand dollar naples airbnb I agreed.
Speaker 1:I agreed to this. I think this year we're going to do a little cheaper.
Speaker 2:I'm trying to get well, it's only us this year so well, unless, um, you know, bern and rob and the kids come, our nephews, then we would do, um, you know, a bigger place, but because we would split it with them. But if it's just the two of us, yeah for sure. No, no, I'm okay with that because we've been to naples and we can drive and go to friend and bob's pool and whatever. But you know, and I I always do this to you, and so now this year we are going to take a really long three-week trip to, uh, the british virgin islands, and we're gonna go to tortola, to our old apartment that we went to last year, same one with elvette, and then we're gonna go two nights on anagata, three nights on virgin gorda, and come back and it's just gonna be amazing. Oh, it's gonna be great. So I booked us a whole house on virgin gorda because you told me that it was okay when you were over served.
Speaker 1:It's okay I said, listen, you only live once. I got three and it's like a four minute walk to spring Bay.
Speaker 2:It's like a villa with air conditioning. It's it's our own house, like in the middle of palm trees and boulders. It's beautiful. You probably haven't even seen it. No, I haven't seen it I just don't even I listened you.
Speaker 1:Just you just book it, I show up, we got like a whole bunch of three and a half. You know I would love to be immortal, and if I am, oh, that'll be a great surprise, that'll be the most pleasant surprise ever. And if you're immortal, too, that'd be a great surprise. Also because I'd love, wouldn't that be fun.
Speaker 2:Yeah, wouldn't that be fun. I would totally do it again with you in the next life.
Speaker 1:Oh, I hope we meet If I'm not immortal, yeah if that's, if it's that's, you know it's to be seen. But some of the that I've worked on, some of what I've been working on and we'll definitely do a podcast on it when the book comes out. I've been working on my first book, which is called waiting. Oh, lindsay wants me to to to hold that. But I've been surprised it's going to be a surprise.
Speaker 2:But he wrote a book because he's so awesome, like that. And, yeah, you know, it's interesting because we're going to talk about relationships today Right, a little bit. And one of the things that makes me crazy about you which is probably the opposite makes you crazy about me is that, like you'll, you'll get an idea on something and you'll just sit up all night and write a whole book. Oh, yes, I will. You will sit up for like 40 hours straight and write a book.
Speaker 1:Yes, I will. And meanwhile you're like, can you take your clothes out of the dryer? And I'm like, yeah, okay, tomorrow I'll do it. And that is exactly what I did.
Speaker 1:I took all my writings and my essays and then I actually started a second book and this episode is going to be based on one of the chapters of that second book, which is, if I can say that, the working title of that second book. It's called Dark Matter the Invisible Architecture of Anxiety and Depression, and in that book I take celestial phenomenon and all these other invisible influences in our life and talk about how they shape our lives. And so this idea and this is a good segue into our main topic, the silent scripts is about all the things that impact your life that you don't even realize impact it. And so one of the things in the first chapter of this book, or the first subsection of this book, is called the silent scripts. And what the silent scripts are is this idea that we frequently find in couples and families, even at work, is that you expect people to read your mind, like you have expectations and wants and needs and you think your partner should automatically understand them. Lindsay, let's talk about that.
Speaker 2:Well, that's. I think this is my opinion. But I've worked with a lot of couples and a lot of individuals with relationship struggles and I think that that's one thing people do not think about is that they get really upset with their partner for something, but they have never, ever and I had this conversation with a new client last week and that they never, ever, sit there and actually think about what their partner might be thinking or how their partner is perceiving the same situation, and so it's like they just expect their partner, when they get mad, to know what they're mad about. And I'm like, no, like you have to talk about expectations from the minute you hit the ground running in a relationship. And I had a great.
Speaker 2:I have a new client and he's great, and we had a conversation about this last week because he said I'm dating and he's gay and I'm dating and I'm struggling so much because I have all this list of rules, like I don't know when I should text, what I should say. How is it going to perceived? Is it too soon? And I said you need to trust yourself, self-trust, right, because here's the thing you can either put yourself out there in the beginning and say this is what I need. I need a B and C in the relationship and that way that person has an opportunity to say, eh, no, not going to work for me because I'm not doing that. But people don't do that. And then they wonder why five, 10, 20 years into a relationship they're not in sync with each other.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's, it's crazy, right, because I've had the same discussion with multiple uh, not only folks I've worked with, but folks in my personal life who have this. And you love Hallmark movies, right, I love Hallmark movies. Those are my guilty pleasures, I think we watched. We watched Accidentally in Love and then for Fluke we watched love accidentally and then the accidental family.
Speaker 2:We couldn't even watch that. It was so bad.
Speaker 1:As soon as the magical negro came on, who was narrating, I was like, yeah, I'm out, I'm like I'm done.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's like I'm done we'll have to talk about magical negros in another episode?
Speaker 1:yeah, but I make myself laugh. But the point being is that these movies and a lot of what we learned in popular culture is happily ever after, and that's not really the case in marriages and relationships.
Speaker 2:No, that's 100 percent right when you say that, because we just talked about this. We were away with some friends for a birthday weekend for one of my dear friends, and you know, and when we he, she and I were talking that weekend, she said, you know, me and my husband don't always connect. And I said, well, me and Cleve don't always connect Right and like we love each other very much and there's never going to be a time where I think either one of us would walk from this relationship. But we, we are not always in alignment Right and we're not always going to connect, and so there's going to be disagreements and there's going to be arguments and things that you don't see eye to eye on, but the biggest thing is the communication piece. These are my expectations. This is what I want and need from you. Like you can either bring it or you can't.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think that's. I think that's important, because the crazy thing that folks do is like if you met a stranger Right and this is the example of always use used with folks that I've worked with you wouldn't go to a restaurant, even if you're a regular, like we used to go to Artie's here on the right, here on the corner, and every week we would go and we never made the assumption that our server would know what we wanted. And even in the days that that person assumed that they knew what we wanted, was it ever actually what we actually ever wanted?
Speaker 2:No, and the worst part was we would tell her what we wanted and then she would go ahead and do something different. But you know, that's the thing and that's why, you know, I always, you and I, we communicate with each other. We rarely argue, but if we do, it's usually a good one, yeah.
Speaker 1:Oh, it's usually a good one and I always lose, but I feel but I feel like my point gets heard, even when I don't feel like I've won the argument, I do would say this that I think, even when you don't acknowledge in the moment what I'm saying, or even if I'm not acknowledging you, I do think we do spend time and we go back and we think about what the other person said and because we're best friends and because we love each other we are, and because we love each other and the relationship is ultimately important to us, even outside of the heat of the moment, I actually say hey, how could I help my friend?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I do the same thing with you, and I mean, I mean yesterday I told you I owed you an apology because I blamed you for a lot of stuff, all of the things. No, but I blamed you for because the Kennedy assassination. Occasionally I see your large noggin stretching out my hat and it is a large noggin. And I had accused you of losing my tipsies hat from.
Speaker 1:Anna Gatto.
Speaker 2:Which you found, and yesterday I was packing for Nevis and I found it in the suitcase from our last beach vacation, I guess. I guess I was probably unpacking. You got annoyed with me and zip that shit up and put it in the closet, because you're always like it takes you forever to unpack. Can't you just wash it and put it away? And I'm like, yeah, ok, okay, but it's all these dresses that need to be washed one at a time and then hung up to dry, and and so, yeah, I did. I found the hat, and so I will publicly apologize to you here too, and that's that's like my favorite hat, my tipsy hat.
Speaker 2:Thank you and we're going back to tipsies and we're staying and we're staying this time and scottages and anagata and owns tipsies it's gonna be good it's gonna.
Speaker 1:But you know, to bring it back to our main topic, we, we, we, we made that resolution right and we made that idea and we made that thought and we booked that vacation because we talked to each other right.
Speaker 2:Well, we always talk to each other and we talk about everything, right, and I, you know, we talk about things, we read we, and we don't always agree on things. You'll give me an opinion and I won't agree on it. I mean, I had a couple ask me last week because they're arguing about something and they're having. You know they're both struggling but cause they're both still in their own perception. And I said you know you guys need to date each other. They're young, they don't even have kids yet and they don't go on dates.
Speaker 1:And it's phenomenal. That's phenomenal to me.
Speaker 2:And I said to them I said I go on a date with my husband every single week, at least one day. And they said, well, where do you go? What do you do? And I was like we just go out and we talk to each other. I mean, last week the queen mom had the flu, she couldn't go to um, the New Paltz accepted students day at SUNY, and so you and I just said, okay, do you need us to be here? And she's like no, I really don't feel good and I just want to sleep all day.
Speaker 2:And you and I took a ride, we went up to Fjord vineyards our favorite place shout out to Casey and Matt and shout out. And we had a glass of wine and a plate of hummus and, you know, veggies and cracker and olives and whatever they serve up there. And we just talked to each other. We didn't have phones Well, there's no service anyway but we had no phones out. She'd got a great little outdoor setup and we sat there and we just talked to each other. And that's what we do for dates. And that's what I said to this couple. I said we just drove to a winery and talked to each other. Sometimes we hike, sometimes we go to the beach, sometimes we just sit in the backyard and put a fire in the fire pit. But we date each other consistently and we listen to what the other person needs.
Speaker 1:Right, when I was interning it was some time ago I started working with a new couple that was that complained about the fire had gone out of their marriage and it was like our first session. And it's like seven, eight o'clock at night and they both show up in bathrobes to therapy, to therapy, and I'm and I'm like, oh well, you're telling me that the fire has gone out of your relationship and it's like seven o'clock and you're already in bathrobes. I wonder why.
Speaker 2:In front of me in bathrobes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I wonder why.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I like to shed light for my couples that I work with, and even individuals, is that you know, if someone comes to me and has a hundred complaints about their husband, I asked them well, what are some of the reasons that you married him, right?
Speaker 2:Right, because in a lot of times, right, I say you know, when you're upset, you only think about the things that bother you, like, oh, he didn't listen to me here and he did this and he yelled at me and he called me this, but you don't think about his loyalty as a father and as a partner and his willingness to work things out or fix things or to make things right.
Speaker 2:And because we get into that head space of, well, no, because they should just know that I need this. And you know a very powerful thing I say to a lot of my clients and they sometimes they think about it, often in the middle of sessions in between but I tell them you are the cause of, and the solution to, the problems in your life. And so if you're having problems in your marriage now, what did you do to contribute to those problems? Right, and it can be as simple as oh well, I did all these things, but now I don't want to OK. So you went into it inauthentically, right Right, and you didn't tell him that these are my expectations for you and this is what I need, and and that's the biggest thing, is that partners do not discuss expectations and non-negotiables in relationships.
Speaker 1:Right, and one of the more fascinating things that I've found in relationships is covert contracts. Dr Robert Glover talks about covert contracts in his book no More, mr Nice Guy. And a covert contract is a one sided agreement where you think that if I provide a but never tell the person what my expectation is, that person will magically give it to you. Let me tell you something about life. I grew up in the projects Right and I was in Brooklyn's hope program, and one of the things that I learned in the hope program is that the natural human inclination is, when you do something nice for somebody, it is not let me see, what can I do nice for Lindsay? It is like let me see, and we know this from both the queen, mom and, uh, the gods and heaven Sent is. Sometimes it's like well, what more can this person do for me?
Speaker 1:Without me doing anything for them Without me doing anything for them, and that is a covert contract. A covert contract is the expectation that I will do for my wife. I will do for my husband and because I watched this Hallmark movie and because I watched this Hollywood movie, they should automatically know what I want. But do you go to a restaurant, do you get in a cab? Do you go to a movie theater and the other one's like, don't tell me.
Speaker 2:I know where you're going, I know what you want to watch, I know what you want to eat.
Speaker 1:Right. Is that where you're going? That's exactly right.
Speaker 2:It's so true. It is so true. I mean, you know, I think, yeah, it's very interesting and that is that is, I think, the biggest issue. And that was we had a really great conversation, my client and I, this week, because I said do you trust yourself? Because after date one you should be able to say hey, I'm a super nervous dater, I, I'm going to tell you I hate the texting because I don't know what to say, I never know when to do it. And then you're saying to that person probably what they're also thinking after a first date, but then you're telling that person like, hey, this is who I am. You either want me for who I am or you don't Right, right, right.
Speaker 1:And I think and that's the thing a covert contract leads to Dr Glover talks about in his book it leads to frustration, it leads to disappointment, it leads to anxiety, it leads to upsetness, and if you do not want any of those things and it's so crazy to me when I, when I talk to both friends and couples that I've worked with why don't you just tell the person what you want? It seems like a foreign idea.
Speaker 2:Right, and we do that in our relationship. Like you'll say to me I feel really weird right now and I'll be like, well, something happened. What do you need from me? Right, and I can come to you and say I just did such and such and I'm just feeling really vulnerable, I need a hug. Or you know, we need some time alone without the kids. Can we go to dinner? Can we go here? Can we do this? And you know, and, and it's being able to just tell your partner this is what I need. I don't even always know why I need it, right, I mean, sometimes you're like I feel really funny, but I don't even know why. Like something feels off, and then it's like a moment of connection.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm going to have a moment of vulnerability with you and tell you that that is something that I've learned to do recently, because when I first met you probably like eight, nine years ago, I wouldn't have told you shit. I wouldn't have said anything. I would have been like, oh, I'm dying.
Speaker 2:Now you asked me that before and and and I and you've admitted that it's really hard for you to look at your trauma and your like inner child stuff. And so you said I don't like to be vulnerable so I avoid situations that make me that way.
Speaker 1:Right, but now you'll ask me and I'll pause and you'll see, and I'll tell you the truth. No, I don't actually feel well today. No, I feel out of sorts today and and I and I and it's refreshing, and I've told this and this is the and I'm going to get a little animated here because that frustrates the hell out of me when I work with couples, and I'll be like well, have you told them how they feel? Well, I don't trust them enough to tell them.
Speaker 2:Well, and the thing with every single relationship, I tell my couples, every single relationship is workable. It's whether or not you want to work it out. You either want to do the work or you don't want to do that. And if you don't want to do the work, I tell them then we can just take a different turn here and I can help you split up amicably.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it's like what frustrates me about that is how you so. So you're married to this person, you have kids with this person, you have finances with this person, but you don't. You sleep with the person, but you don't trust them enough to tell them what your deepest, darkest, darkest secret is or what's bothering you, and you expect the relationship to work.
Speaker 2:No, and relationships are hard and I tell my clients all the time like I said, my husband's also a therapist Like we are two therapists and we're not always in alignment with our communication. We're always. You know, there's always going to be times where we disagree or we argue on something. Or I'll say something to you and you take it the wrong way, or you say something to me and I'll perceive it another way. It's just like you just have to be able to do that talking, because at the end of the day, I think that's what also keeps us closer.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I want to move on to our next topic, which is kind of like we will, we will, we will, we will. I have to catch my. I got to catch my breath here, it's a cold catching up on. And that brings me to our second topic, or a second heading, which is self-worth and capitalism and spiritual metrics. Right, one of the things that bugs me out about humans and I know you find this funny because I said something oh, humans amuse me so much. And you said you looked at me when I said that last week as if I wasn't human. And some days I don't feel like human, I feel like I am an alien visitor here. Is this idea that humans do not give each other grace right?
Speaker 1:A couple of years ago, famously, will Smith um had a very human moment and slapped the heck out of Chris Rock at uh, I think it was what is the Academy? It was the at the Oscars, at the Academy awards, because of a miscommunication with his wife. You know, everybody acted like, oh, they've never been in that situation. And everyone acted like they've never been in that situation, that they've never been in that situation before. And I'm watching the last season of Kirby enthusiasm and I've met Larry David in real life Very funny guy, Um.
Speaker 1:And there's an episode of Kirby enthusiasm where Jeff, larry's best friend, has an incident with his wife, where his, where, his wife, where somebody says something to his wife at a show or an event that they're at, and Jeff found it funny, but she looked at him crazy and he was like he goes up to the guy and was like hey man, I'm sorry I have to do this, but if I don't do this my wife is going to be mad at me for the rest of the day and then he yells at him keep my wife's name out of your mouth. So a lot of times I say all of this because a lot of times our self-worth is tied to what other people think about us.
Speaker 1:Well, we often compromise our authenticity for acceptance yeah, so we often compromise our authenticity for for acceptance so we're.
Speaker 2:We're like afraid to be who we are because someone might not like us, and so that person that was actually another point, if I talk about that same couple that I got to with him was would you rather just be able to say these things up front? This is how I am. I hate the texting in between dates. It makes me super nervous. I don't know, like, if I text you too soon, if I text you too late, what if I say the wrong thing? And I said, like, if that's who you are like, if you put that out there on the first date, like this is how I am, I hate the texting. I don't know what to say. Then you're giving that person like an opportunity to say, yes, okay, I'm the same way, okay, I admire that, or you're not.
Speaker 1:And it brings me back to this point is that a lot of times, our view of our self-worth or our metrics of are we a spiritual or are we a good person are based on other people's opinions. Right, and I think here in the West-.
Speaker 2:Right. We listen to the voices of other people. I always ask my clients is that your voice or someone else's voice telling you that that's what you should do?
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think here in the West to your point is that we don't make decisions based on our authentic self. We think about what everybody else wants for us or thinks that we should be doing, and then we do. We make the decision that is for, not for ourselves, but ultimately what we think other people want want for us. And what I appreciated about that episode of Curb, even though it was like a brief scene, is like come on, larry said the truth of what we all know.
Speaker 1:Will was in a position where he had to make his wife happy and he had to make the difficult decision Am I going to? I'm already in a strained relationship with this woman. It's already on. Our relationship is already on the verge of breakdown. If I let this guy tell this joke that actually was a very funny, innocuous joke If I let him get away with that, how much trouble am I going to be in at home? Damn it. I think I'm going to get up in front of it and slap the hell out of this guy at the Oscars, just to keep peace at home. And everybody acted like they didn't understand.
Speaker 2:But they probably did.
Speaker 2:But they just didn't know all the intricacies of it, right, and that's what happens with us is that we don't really, you know, we never really know what's going on inside anybody's relationships, right? Oh, what's going on inside anybody's relationships, right? Because we only and I say this also to my clients too is that nobody actually reacts to the situation. They react to how they perceive the situation. So you have two people in an argument and a couple, right? They get in an argument. Each one perceives it in a different way, and I can say I do that with you and I'm sure you do that with me, right, but we always choose a bad perception, right, and that's what we react to and that's where the emotion comes from. And we never stopped to think about our partner's perception of the issue, right, and I think I've told you recently I have a couple that's trying to get pregnant and they're struggling, and he feels that if it's not natural, he's not a man.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I've had a similar and I and I said to him I said oh, that's interesting.
Speaker 2:And I said let's ask your wife how she feels that she can't get pregnant and hasn't been successful in it. And she said oh, I feel like a failure as a woman, right? So it's like I said you both feel like a failure, but none of you have talked about that.
Speaker 1:And one of the things that's fascinating me, especially working from couples from the West, is that this idea of productivity, of capitalism, of I have to be a man, I have to be producing, and that your view of yourself, like poor Will when he slapped the heck out of Chris Rock, your view of yourself is I have to put on this persona, this public image, this image that I have to put on for the world to show them I am a provider, I am a producer, right.
Speaker 1:One of the reasons and I'm a former Jehovah's Witness and you know to my brother's point the religion has changed. I haven't been there and I'm not saying this to crap on the witnesses, because if this is what you believe, that is what you believe. But one of the things that really turned me off to my experience in religion here in America and this is multiple of religions is that the Jehovah's Witnesses had a direct tie to productivity, to your spirituality, and that is a very Can you tell me more about that? Yeah, that is so. So, saying the Jehovah's Witnesses, you had to have a certain number of Bible studies right 10 or like 10 or more. You had to have a certain number of hours that you knocked on doors.
Speaker 2:So the more you do, then the more credibility you get with Jehovah.
Speaker 1:Right. But that is a very American idea, because when I worked at FedEx, when I worked at NBC, when I worked at GameStop, when I worked at uh, at Murko, my productivity, the way that I was, my humanity, right in a capitalist culture, is tied not to the quality of the person I am. It's not tied to who am I kind to other individuals. Listen, my time and I'm not there anymore, and I'm not saying this because I want to get sued, but my time at NBC Universal was consumed by some of the worst, by some of the best people that I've ever met, but by some of the worst people that I've ever met, right and people in roles of leadership and all across corporate America.
Speaker 2:This is a very common theme, even like with my clients who work for the department of education, and I tell them it's run like a hierarchy, still, it's just like corporate America. Just because you're a teacher, it doesn't mean that you have any autonomy. It's this is the way that it's going to be done, because if it's not done this way, then I am going to get in trouble, right, right. And it has actually nothing to do with the actual person doing the job. And you know, that was something I always said to you at NBC which drove me crazy when you would come home and you would be so upset and you'd be like I can't stand this place. Oh, my God, what's going on? How can they do this? What the heck? What garbage in a garbage can they're texting me about on a Friday afternoon? And it's like you know these people all to avoid any kind of accountability. They will, they will, they will have you do something and then throw you under the bus for doing that very thing. It's like nobody in that environment is authentic yeah, nobody.
Speaker 1:And it's and it's not something. And here's the thing I'm not just crapping on NBC, I'm not just crapping on FedEx, I'm not just crapping on the Jehovah's Witnesses. It is a very American idea that your value as a person is tied to materialistic and capitalistic.
Speaker 2:It's your job, it's the pension, it's the benefits, it's the money, it's all these things. And that's a really hard thing for me because as a therapist I mean and you know me and this actually when I met you now not so much, but when I met you you had a very hard time understanding my lifestyle. Right, and no, if you, if you're not going to come, I'm going to drop the case, I'm not doing it, I'll take this, I'll do that. And for me, pretty much working for myself, that was the biggest concern that you always had. And you were like, oh, but if you just took a job here, you could just make so much money and it's steady, and you can have this and you can have that and you can do this and you can do that. And I was just like, yeah, no, not doing it. And you used to get so mad at me, yeah, and then you quit your job and you were like, oh, yeah, now I get it.
Speaker 1:Now I do get it.
Speaker 2:Right, I get it because there's, I have all the autonomy in the world and I, you know, I mean I'm taking off almost the whole month of July, yeah Right, and I've been able to cram in the first two weeks of April. I've been able to cram in a month's worth of work, so that, eh, you know what, we're going to go away for two weeks and we're not going to be back, Cause then we got to pick up you know, the next one from college. That, oh okay, not a big deal, because I've worked so much in the first half of the month that I can enjoy two weeks on a beach in Nevis with, like, my Kindle in my hand and no obligations and no stress.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the promise of the Bible and even for those of you don't believe in the Bible or whatever scriptural you book, and the promise of all holy books, is that you will work for yourself and you will reap the benefits of your work for yourself, that you do not answer to a master, that you do not answer to a corporate overlord. And, unfortunately, my son was doing my taxes for my 83 year old mother the other day and she still owes taxes, right. And as we say, america has become a subscription service money, a subscription service country. You never own this year, baby. Well, not with us this year, but you never, and this is what Dave and I were talking about the other day. You never own anything here. You will buy a house. You still have to pay taxes, right, and you never, and this is what Dave and I were talking about the other day. You never own anything here. You will buy a house. You still have to pay taxes, right, and you know what's so interesting?
Speaker 2:It's we go to Tortola often right In the British Virgin Islands. One of the things that's so interesting there is that the people own the land. Right, the government doesn't own the land, so you own your parcel of land and I'm sure it's divided up into families and I'm sure all that vacant land in the hill belongs to some family who's just like nah, I'm not developing it, right, because you see how people operate there, right, right and and. But the people own the land and so there's no stress, yeah, like it's theirs and they can do what they want with it.
Speaker 2:Oh, this one had a baby, all right, well, we'll just build their family a house on our land and there's, you know, and what's interesting too and we'll talk about this probably in the next episode is that when we go to barbados, uh, in 2027, for that 12-month visa, we don't have to pay taxes there that's great, that's a wonderful thing, yeah, yeah and that and that's, you know, and it's because we will be contributing to their economy, yeah, right, and it's, it's yeah, but people just you know, and it's because we will be contributing to their economy, yeah, right, and it's, it's yeah, but people just do you know, we just we don't have the right kind of expectations and relationships.
Speaker 2:And if we go back to what you were saying before with the religion is, in religion it's like this external belief, like this belief that the external will save you or will fix you or will help you, and we never go inside, right, right, and like when I meditate, I always say, oh, I'm going to visit myself.
Speaker 1:One of the fascinating things that we've talked about is this season of white Lotus. That is very controversial because a lot of folks were like, didn't like it was like, oh, it wasn't funny enough, it was too dark. Is the character of guy talk right? Guy talk was. This was the probably the worst. And I will say this I would never. I love guy talk as a person, and even his boss told him hey, you're so friendly, people love you, but maybe you're not a good guard, right? But one of the things that Guy Talk struggled with was am I going to be a good human being or am I going to be a productive guard?
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:And am I going to live up to other people's expectations of who I should be, or am I going to be a good person? Talk about that for a second and that struggle that folks have in this culture.
Speaker 2:Well, people are afraid to be who they are right. You shouldn't even have to ask yourself questions about who should I be in this role. You should just be able to be you Right? Yeah, a hundred percent, yeah. I mean that was a great season, though we can talk about that another time too. But like I mean wow, right, like the greatest message was all of these people have so much money and they're miserable, miserable miserable and that's why I always tell you money doesn't buy you happiness.
Speaker 1:It makes things easier.
Speaker 1:It doesn't buy happiness but you have to and part of the problem of the capitalism, of capitalism and when you value yourself compared to the things that you have, and that was the amazing thing. So we look at the end of the season and the Jason Isaacs character, mr Radcliffe and I don't want to ruin it for any of you who haven't watched it he was the most spiritually, even though he struggled the whole time there, thought about murdering his family, thought about murdering himself In the end, when he realized you know what, oh my God, when he almost killed his son, and he realized that it was more important to have connection than things. Yeah, he was the most spiritually transformed person on that, on that trip.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely Remember when he went to the monastery he was just like, oh my God, like this is really like eyeopening for me.
Speaker 1:And I and I think one of the things that we'll see in season four is that Belinda and Zion, who were formerly good characters, I feel at that five million dollars that they got from Gary is going to is going to corrupt, is going to corrupt them maybe, and I think when season four, if we see a continuation of that story, we will see how her living the dream and then it was the great scene was nothing is. If you noticed in that scene of as her and Zion were going away on the boat in the final episode, there was a play in the song nothing from nothing gets nothing, but you got to have something if you want to be with me, and I think that at the ultimately she's going to find is that she's got that $5 million, but it is not going to bring her happiness.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I always tell you that money makes things easy. It doesn't buy happiness.
Speaker 1:Okay, I want to jump to our next topic, which is familiar expectations and the value gap. Yeah, I'm excited about it and this is something that you can definitely talk about. There are roles within families the black sheep, the hero, the caretaker. I'm the scapegoat. Go ahead, tell us about that.
Speaker 2:The black sheep and the scapegoat. Tell us about the black sheep. The scapegoat and the back sweep are kind of similar right, but they don't follow the rules and they go and they do what they want anyway, regardless of the family's expectations, and they're the person who kind of rock the boat and disrupt and cause friction in the unit.
Speaker 1:Tell me about this idea, and I listened to a speaker once I can't remember his name, but he talked about the value gap, right, and I know we've talked about this before where your family or families, even though well-intentioned, would rather you conform to what the family wants for you, for them, what makes the family happy over what makes you happy. So tell us about your personal experience and your thoughts on that.
Speaker 2:Well, I think that families are like that because they're uncomfortable with the disruption of the status quo, and so people are doing something that works for them, and a perfect example really is my family your family also, right. Like my family, I grew up in probably like an upper middle class family. We never really wanted anything because our all of our needs were met and most of our wants were met. I was very rarely told no, I couldn't have something. And you know, we, we live in these roles and and the thing is, oh well, this works for us.
Speaker 2:So, you know, the, the parents kind of make a rule and the kids basically adhere to the rule. Right, and I always say they, you know, those are like kind of our adaptive strategies that keep us safe in childhood, right, we, oh, this is what's wanted, okay, I'm going to do this, because then my mom and dad are going to be proud, or they're going to be happier, they're going to like me, and so we don't really stray from those things. The thing is, is that for me, I think I became the scapegoat in the family when I just decided like, yeah, no, not working for me, I'm not going to do this, I'm not happy, and I think very rarely do people actually follow their heart or their gut and they they start to get into their head with what the ego kind of tells them what to do.
Speaker 1:And go ahead. So I want to ask you a question. So what happens to folks when they give into the pressure to fulfill their parents' dreams?
Speaker 2:Well, they're not happy, right. And I have a client who works for the Department of Education and she's miserable and her father's like oh, it's only 10 more years, remember, you have the pension. And she's like every week crying and being like I need to go to the psychiatrist, I need to up my meds. And it's like yo, like meds are okay, right. If you need psychopharmaceuticals with a combination of talk therapy, that is okay, right.
Speaker 2:Because there are some things and some diagnostic conditions that really do disrupt the chemistry of the brain, right, neurologically. So I'm not saying don't take meds, but like a combination of both is important, right. And this client does this and does that and she is miserable. She is miserable, she's crying all the time, she hates her job and everyone around her is like oh well, you know, you've got the pension, you got the bet, it's only 10 more years. And I'm like and then she's like my marriage is horrible, my kids are poorly behaved, I can't do this, I can't do that. And I'm like well, why the hell would anyone get the best version of you if you hate what you do every day?
Speaker 1:And, as a parent, I want to say that I that neither one of us is guilty of it, right, but we are as guilty and Gabor Monte talks about this as like we're all screwed up from our parents, just as we screwed up our kids also, because as we've lived our lives, we know the mistakes that we've made and we often would like our children not to make the same mistakes. However, it is their life and, unless they are doing something illegal and or immoral, it is their life. It is their decision to make Right.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And your child. I can tell you this for a fact your child, if you make a decision for them, even if it's successful, they will always be angry at you for you robbing them of their agency. In the case of of of our, of my biological children, I never got an option to go to college because being a Jehovah's witness hey, the world is coming to an end any day. Now, 40 years later, it's still not over. Getting closer. It seems like it's getting closer some days, but 40 years later, it's still not over. Getting closer, it seems like it's getting closer some days, but 40 years later, it's still not over.
Speaker 1:It took me a long time to get to where I wanted to be because I was fulfilling the dreams of uh, of my parents, as as uh, what's our Zila said to me when she first met me, your energy healer, my mother. She was like, I can feel your mother imprinted herself heavily on you. Right, and that is unfortunately what we do as well-intentioned parents. We imprint ourselves on our children, but it is not fair, Even, even in all, even if you mean it in the best way possible, If your child is making a decision that you do not disagree, that you do not agree with, as long as that decision is not illegal or moral. Your obligation as a parent is to support and to encourage and to help them, because they will resent you.
Speaker 2:Well, and I like to think that with each generation, right, we are a little bit less controlling of the kids. And you know, we're like that and I, I said to you know, tom Huckleberry, today, it, you know, you, you know what, like I understand what you're going to do while we're away. I know, I just want to know can I rely on you for the things I need to rely on you for everything else? Whatever you want to do, you do, right, as long as you play by the rules here, we're fine.
Speaker 2:And I don't believe in trying to control the kids, and I think that's something I've done with the kids, especially recently, right, I mean, we've got, you know, the, the truck driver there who now is like going to be studying abroad in Oslo next year and you know, and has chosen his path and I, you know, I'm just like great, whatever you like, go for it. I'm not trying to hold them back or tell them what to do or who to be, because I feel for myself, I have this awareness that that was, you know, that caused a lot of issues for me, Right, so a lot of trauma.
Speaker 1:So the question I want to ask you is how does misalignment between personal values and family expectations create emotional dissonance?
Speaker 2:Well, because I think what happens is people tend to follow what the family wants, right, and then they are not happy, right, and so they're kind of constantly feeling dissatisfied, yeah, and, you know, misaligned in their lives and yeah, and I think, if that's what you're asking me, yeah, that is exactly what I'm asking you, but people tend to do what the family wants them to do because it's a safe path.
Speaker 2:it's a status quo right and I always say the person who goes outside of the status quo and I told you this right like the most healthy person in a toxic dynamic, causes the most friction right that.
Speaker 1:That moves us on to our last topic, which is cultural scripts versus free will. And oftentimes us as Western therapists, we have to be very careful when we advise folks from the East. Right, Westerners are and Europeans are very individualistic. Right, Every other culture outside of Europeans are collectivists. Right, they believe in the power of community. You go to Africa, you go to Asia, you go to many cultures in the Caribbean. They believe in the power of community. You go to Africa, you go to Asia, you go to many cultures in the Caribbean. They believe in the power of the community.
Speaker 2:They all live on the same property. Share houses, share compounds yeah.
Speaker 1:Right, and so there is a. There is this idea that we, as my son, the Republican and the young black Republican in Florida likes to say, he likes to say we are, I right, and so collectivist cultures realize that for the individual to succeed, that we have to. We have to succeed together. However, the downside of that is sometimes you get lost in the collectivism right, and I can give examples of multiple.
Speaker 1:I don't want to call out any particular person that I've worked with, but I've been given an example of multiple clients that I've worked with that that have quandaries because their families are demanding from them. Their families are demanding from them something that makes them feel uncomfortable because it is a cultural expectation. Now, how do you, as a therapist, how do you respect that that? Yes, I know you have to. I know you come from this collectivist culture, but how do you help a therapist how do you respect that that? Yes, I know you have to. I know you come from this collectivist culture, but how do you help a person like that realize that maybe the decision that they're making for their family might not be the best decision for themselves?
Speaker 2:Well, that's an interesting question.
Speaker 2:But I think what happens is, you know, when you live somewhere here, like if you are a different culture and you live in America, right, like there's the acculturation and the assimilation, right, and so it's like you kind of have to learn to hold on to some of what's important to you culturally, right, but also assimilate to a different culture.
Speaker 2:And I think that's what probably causes the friction with people because, like even in the Bronx right where I work, I see a lot of families that come here and they're still very much like don't ever learn English, right, they're still very much like their children eat the foods that they ate. Culturally, the language is spoken in the home and you know it's it's very interesting because it's hard to. I think if you grow up in that culture, it's got to be hard Right, because you're trying to be two different things at once. And you know most, I have to say, like mostly, especially with African families I see for work, they always are married into other African families, like it's interesting, right, and so they don't really assimilate to the American culture. It's more of like, you know, I see more different kind of people who are born here in America that assimilate more.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we talked about Will Smith earlier, and I don't know if you ever seen the film the Pursuit of Happiness, which is based on a true story Actually, you know, I've seen nothing, so so one of the things that's fascinating about that movie is one of the things and I remember his character saying this is that what led to great disappointment in his life is that so many people in his life told him he was going to be something and he never got to what other people told him he was going to be Right. And it brings me back to this idea from Albert Ellis this masturbation that we put upon ourselves because we live in these collectivist I have to do this.
Speaker 2:I have to do that, I must do this, I must do that yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, talk about that.
Speaker 2:Well, it's. It's. It's because we listen to the voices of other people that tell us what we need to do in order to be successful, or to be happy, or to have what we want to have.
Speaker 1:Ocean Vong said once said we are born into stories, ones we did not write. Oh, I like that. What does that mean to you.
Speaker 2:Well, we're born into our karma, right. Our family has us, but, like we didn't have, really have a choice there, they chose kind of we're like chosen by those people, right, and so we may not be in agreement with them, right, but this is like part of our story.
Speaker 1:Right, right you. One of your favorite sayings is the dharma of another. Tell us, that causes great pain right.
Speaker 2:There's many versions of that, of that quote, but it's basically like if you live your own life, you find this kind of satisfaction and happiness. But when you live the way that other people like tell you to live, you don't have that Right and it brings and when they say it brings great danger. Right Like the day, like the Dharma of another brings great danger, it means it's just like that. You're just not content, You're not happy with that Right. So it's like when you live according to what other people tell you you should or must do, Okay, but it doesn't bring you any fulfillment or satisfaction.
Speaker 1:When we think about how we've learned to interact with our own families. How is it that you can reconcile family tradition, so how is it that you can be respectful to your family yet also be your own authentic?
Speaker 2:person. Yeah, this is a great question. For me, my favorite thing ever Boundaries, boundaries. That's it right? You can still spend time with family and put up boundaries right, and we do that all the time. Right, you interact with your family, I interact with my family and I just no, that won't work for me. Yeah, yeah, no, thanks.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and one of the amazing things I wanna go back as we're getting ready to close out here is I think it's a Smith's lyric from the song A Half a Person, but it's one of my favorite songs is it goes back in the days that we were frightfully poor. I just loved you more, Right. And so a lot of times when folks find success or what they think is success, they do not find the measure of happiness that they think should go with it. Right, I've worked with and I know a lot of rich and famous people. One day I hope to be not, I don't even want to be famous, I just want to be financially. I just want to be. I just want to be comfortable. I don't need fame, I don't need notoriety.
Speaker 2:And I always tell you money doesn't make you rich.
Speaker 1:Money doesn't make you rich, and so this idea of back in the days that we were frightfully poor, I just loved you more. Why is it that so many people feel that way? Right, many people feel that way right?
Speaker 2:well, because we connect with people when we don't have things right, when there's not a focus on so many external things, we connect better. Yeah, we focus on yeah, each other and ourselves the internal.
Speaker 1:Um, I think that is about it, for for this episode, as betty is over there. No, I think that's veronica. Oh, that's veronica. Oh yeah, trying to scratch up the furniture, trying to scratch up the furniture, trying to scratch up the furniture. Do you have any closing comments on this particular topic, on the silent scripts and relationships, and any advice for our listeners that you would offer?
Speaker 2:I mean, I think the biggest you know messages that I send to people are you know, let your yes mean yes and your no mean no, and set boundaries with people. If it doesn't align with you, don't do it, and if someone else has a problem with that, that's their problem and not yours, right?
Speaker 1:Some things that you can read as a resource as we close. This episode is no More Mr Nice Guy by Dr Robert Glover. This covers covert contracts. The Velvet Rage by Alan Downs talks about societal expectations and shame. Brene Brown has many, numerous talks on vulnerability and unmet expectations, and you can find Brene Brown's work, or you can find her work on YouTube or anywhere where fine books are sold. And also there's an article in the Atlantic called the Architecture of the American Dream, which talks about capitalism and the expense and the weight that we put upon ourselves to fulfill dreams of other folks in All. The Golden California, which is a take on an episode of the Righteous Gemstones, where we talk about where I talk, where I examine the episode in the light of Jesse and his siblings living the dreams of their father and other folks and not their own dreams. And as Lindsay struggles as has an epic fight. That was ridiculous. That was like an epic battle in the background. That's ridiculous. That was like an epic battle In the background.
Speaker 2:That's ridiculous.
Speaker 1:I have like cat hair on me. That is it for me. Do you have anything else to add? No, that is all. That is all. Now you gotta go punish the cat. This has been another episode of the Devil, you Don't Know. We promise yes, because we are actually Going to fill our backlog of episodes. We promise that there will be another episode coming up next week, right away, so you don't have to wait. You don't have to wait a couple of weeks. Thank you for those who have continued to download our episodes. I say this every time we have a long break. I'm always surprised to see when folks still continue to download our episodes, even when we haven't, even when we've taken like a break of a month. But this has been Cleveland.
Speaker 2:And Lindsay.
Speaker 1:And you can find me on the on on Substack at my, at my Substack, the Unfinished Self. Lindsay and I are going to be still co-authoring a book, but Lindsay wants us to keep all of those things under wraps and keep and keep you folks excited for things to come. But if you want to see some additional musings, find me on Substack at the Unfinished Self. And this has been another episode of the Devil, you Don't Know. Thank you,
