The Devil You Don’t Know
In The Devil You Don’t Know, Lindsay, Cleveland, and their guests discuss personal growth and development by taking chances and getting out of your comfort zone. Topics range from whimsical to serious and everything in between but are always relevant to growth and development.
The Devil You Don’t Know
Accountability is an Inside Job
This episode centers on the theme that accountability is fundamentally an inside job, exploring the connection between personal responsibility and healing through acceptance. We discuss stories of transformation, lessons from experts like Gabor Maté and Mel Robbins, and personal experiences that highlight the challenges of taking ownership in our lives.
• Accountability starts with self-reflection
• Insights from the Hope Program on personal transformation
• The impact of societal issues on individual responsibility
• Navigating relationships through acceptance and accountability
• Gabor Maté’s approach to understanding personal behavior
• Emphasizing the importance of letting others learn on their own
• The power of asking meaningful questions to prompt self-discovery
• Combining accountability with compassion for personal growth
Please email us at Gettoknowthedevil@gmail.com
This is Cleveland, and this is Lindsay. And this is another episode of the Devil. You Don't Know, two in a row. Wow, look at that. We've been able to pull it off, lindsay. What are some things going on? What are we going to? First of all, before we get started, what are we going to talk about today?
Lindsay Oakes:Accountability is an inside job. What made you?
Cleveland Oakes:come up with that idea.
Lindsay Oakes:I think, reflecting on I think all therapists reflect on their clients outside of sessions. Throughout the week you think about people and then when you get together with them, things will come to you or you've reflected on it so you have more insight when you meet them for a session. People especially my clients struggling with forgiveness or for understanding that they can't control someone else's choices or someone else's behaviors. In particular, I think once a while ago, a client had said to me I cannot forgive that person until they are aware of what they did. And I said well, so if that person is never aware of what they did, are you going to hold onto this resentment for the rest of your life? Right, right, and so, um, I think it came out of my mouth last week and I'm sure I probably read it somewhere or saw it, but I my client was talking about something in her life and I said, well, accountability is an inside job.
Cleveland Oakes:And she was like, wow, okay, and I think part two of, from what I remember, when you first hit me up with this I think it was Thursday night we were out at the Hope Program, the 40th anniversary and the 40th. The 40th anniversary and their award, their annual award ceremony, and I think what struck you about that program is that every person who accepted an award on that stage took personal accountability for the mistakes they had made in their life.
Lindsay Oakes:And as someone who works with, you know very underprivileged populations and goes and sees many, many sad things, sad things. And it was really nice to see for myself anyway, to see people who'd made mistakes and who had forgiven themselves and were able to kind of climb out of the hole and achieve great things. And you know, it's just such a small number of people that we saw that night. But you know, and you can talk a little bit about what the Hope Program is in a moment, but what was so nice about it for me was, you know, these people were given an opportunity when no one else would have given them one and they've had great success in their lives because of that.
Cleveland Oakes:You even had the gentleman one of them was out of prison said I remember his story was very striking because, um, because he said when he got out, the hope program had to teach him how to use a phone. Uh, for, for those of you who've never been to jail, hopefully you never will Um, I've had, I've had the privilege and the honor of working with prisoners that are folks that want to change, but they will all tell you that if you're in jail for 10 years or for 15 years, it's almost like being Rip Van Winkle and coming out and not understanding how any of this stuff works. It was one guy who said he cried.
Lindsay Oakes:He didn't even know how to work a cell phone.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah.
Lindsay Oakes:Remember he said he had no idea how to use a phone, how to use a computer, and the HOPE program gave him those basic skills in order to help him to move forward in life and obviously gave him job training and I think he's like a supervisor somewhere right now.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, yeah. So so, before we get more into this topic, I do want to take a pause and just catch you guys up on us and also to want to really say we've been watching like all of you around the country have been watching the, the, the climate chaos situation that is unfolding in California and the wildfires, and it is stunning to see the level of devastation. And it's not just rich folks and even if it was just rich folks don't nobody want to lose their home.
Lindsay Oakes:Yeah, it's very tragic.
Cleveland Oakes:And it's very tragic. So our hearts go out to anybody who's impacted by the fires and please, heed the warnings, get out, get out there. Folks that you know 16, fortunately only 16 people have died right now, but it is really important to heed the warnings, heed the evacuation orders. We've looked at stories in the news where people were like, oh, we sat and leisurely ate dinner. You know, we didn't think the fire was going to catch up on that, on us, that fast, and it actually actually did so. If you are in the reds, if you are in the danger zone and you're listening, uh, please heed the advice of the local authorities and get out. And thank you to our friends from the north and the south, and canada and I, uh, and mexico, and I even saw a supposed africa, africa, some, like some firefighters from south africa was supposedly coming over. So thank you for our, our international partners for helping with that. And then also, what is going on here around these parts? Bathroom downstairs.
Lindsay Oakes:Oh, second toilet.
Cleveland Oakes:Second toilet Amazing, finally, amazing. I didn't mess this one up. The choice is actually made. I think you like the backlit mirror.
Lindsay Oakes:Bathroom looks amazing. Can't wait until the laundry is up there and we can use the shower. But yes, a second toilet with five grown people in this house is definitely definitely welcome addition this week unexpected, unexpected people I think we talked about.
Cleveland Oakes:Uh, we did the return last week, but it's going good. So a week later it's still going good, it's going well everybody's going great right now.
Lindsay Oakes:yeah, it's good know he would also now enjoy coming to St Kitts and Nevis with us.
Cleveland Oakes:Wow, yeah, who knew that was going to happen. But you know we'll figure it out.
Lindsay Oakes:We will, we will figure it out. And he applied to college. Yes Is amazing, exciting, right and right Perfect this episode because I think what he did was take some personal accountability and say what I was doing up until this point was not working for me and I'm really tired of failing at a lot of things.
Cleveland Oakes:And speaking of accountability, before we get back into the main topic is yes, I am trying to be more accountable of my diet. You know, that's one of the things that you know you wanted me to talk about today is like what am I eating? I'm really. What have you been me to talk about today is like what am I eating? I'm really. What have you been eating?
Cleveland Oakes:well, today, I always talk about that with you well, today I ate some just egg and, uh, some plant-based uh, beyond sausage and um, yeah, it wasn't probably better choices than they could have been, than I could have had, but not the best choices, but I I know you're starting something new tomorrow well, I am a big fan of Clean Food, dirty Girl, and that's where I do about 95% of my cooking from, because I subscribe to their portal with recipes.
Lindsay Oakes:So I did a ton of cooking today while you were at church. I made like a Mexican street corn dip. I made a toe thicken a favorite of yours I made some insanely easy potato soup. A whole bunch of other things that, um, that we can have around for the week because the kids are eating us out of house and home. On Friday afternoon we went to the grocery store. So Friday afternoon was what? The 10th, 10th, okay, we went to the grocery store and that was the fourth trip to the store since the 31st of December. It's crazy, right.
Cleveland Oakes:No, like fifth, I think.
Lindsay Oakes:In 10 days we have been to the grocery store for big shops four times, not including all of the things that you've ordered from Costco Right Target, yes. And then the little you know pick up a few things across the street when we run out yeah, and then all these kids are literally eating us out of house and home. And then all the stuff we got from H Mart I mean it was like a hundred.
Cleveland Oakes:Well, that was one of the stores we went to.
Lindsay Oakes:Yeah.
Lindsay Oakes:And it was like over a hundred dollars of great food just gone and you know, and it's hard because it's like you want the kids to eat healthy. So I do all this batch cooking to keep myself on plan because I really would like to lose some weight and, you know, be accountable for the eating that I do. And when I don't have healthy food here prepared for myself, I often grab something that I then feel guilty about later, and so it's a frustrating thing when you make all this really good healthy vegan food and then you go to get it and it's gone and you want to be annoyed with people, but at the same time you're like well, that's like a really good choice that the kids made, Right. So the thing is that we cannot the one thing we cannot keep here is tofu, and I mean how?
Lindsay Oakes:many kids eat tofu. Everybody in this house devours tofu like it is the best thing they've ever eaten.
Cleveland Oakes:Well, the way you cook it it is. I mean, as soon as I came in from through the door, I saw the tofu strips. Oh, I make the tofu deli slices for you.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, the tofu deli slices, which was delicious. But you know, I think this is a good key. I think this is a good segue to talk back into our main topic, which is accountability, because I think one of the most frustrating things and it was a conversation that we, that we had yesterday too is you do not like it when people are not accountable for their actions. Yet, at the same time, as you also said, we can't always control people's level of accountability.
Lindsay Oakes:So doesn't mean it doesn't trigger me.
Cleveland Oakes:Yes, yeah, no, but no, no. I'm just saying yeah, it's a huge trigger for me You're right, but I think that's another reason why this topic was something that was important to you, because you recognize it as a trigger within yourself. So, with that being said, huge trigger, let's get into it.
Lindsay Oakes:Accountability for me. When people do not take accountability, it is very frustrating for me, right, and I know that I have no control over it, but at the same time, it's just, oh gosh, it's annoying, right right.
Cleveland Oakes:You too, with all the messes you've been making in the kitchen. Yeah, but I'm trying. But you bring it to my, you bring it to my point, you bring it to my point, you bring it to my attention, politely and kindly, and then I'll go back and address it. You know, when you think about accountability, it's a book I want to read, um, and you do take accountability for it.
Lindsay Oakes:Oh, thank you.
Cleveland Oakes:It's a book I want to read which is called Mel Robbins. Let them uh. That focuses on the importance of allowing others to grow or not to grow on their own terms. That is something that we as counselors deal with on a regular basis. I'm studying for the National Counseling Mental Health Exam and many of the questions are kind of like trick questions, because if it was a friend of yours you would be of hey, this person needs to get a move on. But many of the questions the answer to the question is you have to let the client move at their own pace or be accountable at their own pace. And, lindsay, what do you think about that?
Lindsay Oakes:I agree with you Absolutely. I that's something I say all the time to people is you can't. I mean as counselors we could sit there right, and counselors, we have this innate ability to know what people's negative core beliefs are Right and to know, kind of, what their stuff is. But what happens when we tell them they don't want to come back because they don't believe it. And once you see it, you can't unsee it. The problem is is that someone else can't make you see it. You have to see it yourself, because if you don't come to that understanding about yourself on your own, you're never going to believe when someone tells you.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, and I think the question that you poised, and the question that you you really wanted to ask, is what happens to us when we stop focusing on others and then turn that energy inward. And I want to move into our second segment and which is Gabor Maté's, and it doesn't have to be necessarily be the four A's of healing, but I know you're a student of Compassion Inquiry, you're getting ready to go into the mentorship program. What would Mate, what would he tell us on this topic of accountability?
Lindsay Oakes:Well, do you ever? Do you ever listen to his sessions with other people? He'll never tell anybody what their core belief is either, and that's you know something I've learned from him. But accountability, he says, has to come from the individual who you know committed the misdeed or who projected onto others right, the person who kind of almost caused a conflict, so to speak. That person has to have awareness before they can take accountability. There has to be an awareness that you know their actions, their thoughts, their words, whatever they did, you know impacted someone else in a negative way.
Cleveland Oakes:I think what I love about Compassionate and Korean, especially from the videos that you've shown me, are the questions that Mate will ask, which are kind of different than than than just simple motivational interviewing, like, for instance, he would ask somebody is like where do I control, uh, where do I try to control, or blame others, or what? This is one particularly is what unneed unmet, unmet needs. Am I projecting?
Lindsay Oakes:right. And he often asks it in the way of you know what? What would right if it's something? Because he'll often tie it back to childhood by asking a really important question, which is when was the first time that you felt this way? Or first, is it a familiar feeling? And 99.9 percent of the time it's a familiar feeling, right, and he has this great, amazing way of tying it back to childhood. And then he would say, oh, so, like if you had a five year old, who would you want them to come to? Right, or what does a five year old need in their lives? And you know. And then that way they start to understand oh, all the stuff that I didn't get, because I'm still this way now.
Cleveland Oakes:And that's a trick that you really helped me with is when working with folks that are particularly stuck, and I've had a few folks say to me I don't know why I'm the way I am, and I just have been like, well, tell me the first time that you felt that way, right, you know, and it brings them back to that moment.
Lindsay Oakes:Or is it a familiar feeling?
Cleveland Oakes:And it makes them realize, like it gives them accountability, because it makes them and we'll get into that what agency is? But it gives them, it gives them power by giving them the accountability to say wow, this is where this first started.
Lindsay Oakes:Right, because, and the thing is is that once we have that pattern, it shows up in so many different places in our lives, right? In different situations, not necessarily always. For example, it's not going to always show up necessarily in a relationship, it'll show up in a job, it'll show up in something else that we do and interactions that we have. But the patterns show up repeatedly. Right? The shame, the fear, the guilt. And our personality, our characteristics, right? Our traits basically develop from our experiences because, as children, we do what we have to do to keep ourselves safe and so we adapt to the environment that we are raised in, but then, as adults, it doesn't serve us anymore.
Cleveland Oakes:So what would Maté say about acceptance, and how does that play back into being accountable?
Lindsay Oakes:It's about having compassion for those parts of yourself. You know, the two year old you, or the seven year old you or the 20 year old you who had these negative experiences. It doesn't make you a bad person because you have shame or guilt or fear, or you feelings of not, you know perceptions that you're not good enough or not loved. Right, it's just so then. What do you need? More is you need to have compassion for those parts of yourself because he says that until you do, those things are going to stay with you. Those things only leave you. When they are ready to leave, you can't say, oh, I went to therapy and I talked about this horrible thing that happened to me and now it's all gone yeah, we saw darcy silver do that right for like one episode.
Lindsay Oakes:Yeah, she went to therapy two times or something. It was like once and she's like I'm cured but that's, but that thing is it.
Lindsay Oakes:It takes time, and so first you have to really get comfortable with that part of yourself that you don't like, or comfortable with that discomfort, and then, once you do that, then you can start to have compassion for it, right? A big thing that I do is like sometimes you'll ask, are you okay? And I'm like no, right, and it's just the process that you have to go through and be really comfortable with not being okay.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, here's a. Here's a question that Mate would ask and I would tell you I definitely could have benefited from this on several occasions over the last couple of weeks is when, faced with someone else's behavior that frustrates you and once again, this is the point, this is your whole point of this, of this episode is ask yourself is this something I can control? If not, how can I release the frustration that I'm feeling? What do you think about that question?
Lindsay Oakes:Absolutely and no, you can't control it, because you can't make someone take personal accountability. However, what you can look at your in yourself is why is it frustrating to me? What wound is it opening up in me that's making me recall a negative belief that I have about myself?
Cleveland Oakes:Right. How does acceptance free us from resentment?
Lindsay Oakes:Well, you know, once we accept that things are out of our control, right, we don't allow them to burden us. I never care how other people behave, right, that's not my problem. Sometimes when I'm in traffic looking at people, I'm like, all right, well, just go, just go around me, not a big deal, right? I mean, people like flip you off, scream at you, people have like a bad day. None of that we can control, but we can control our own. You know our own state and the things that we do to keep our ourselves regulated, to keep the nervous system regulated.
Cleveland Oakes:What's funny is, especially when it comes to couples counseling and we've all worked with couples and we all have many colleagues that work with couples is that resentment, as James Sexton said, as the divorce attorney, seeds of resentment grow into trees of hatred Right. And so not only is there resentment not having acceptance to help build resentment, but it also leads to an emotional toll of unrealistic expectations. And I would tell you, and Gottman would tell you, and I could tell you my personal experience, without naming any specific couples or people that I've worked with, is that I've had couples with the worst situations Kids out of wedlock, you know somebody's cheating or somebody's stolen money and they've come together when they, when they put the side, when they accept this is the situation, they accept. This is what we're working with. Either we're going to stay together or we're going to break up, but we're going to accept the reality of it and they let go of the resentment and they let go of unrealistic expectations.
Lindsay Oakes:Absolutely. And then the other thing I always say, when I work with couples too, is well, he or she was that way when you got married, so why is it different now? Now it's now it's grounds for divorce, but before it was okay.
Cleveland Oakes:And then you have these amazing couples that have get over amazing things, and then you got couples that are fighting over Cheetos or it's you know shout out right to my couple, who has struggled a lot.
Lindsay Oakes:I have a couple that I've been working with for quite a while and we had about a month off because some things had come up in their lives and we were traveling for the holidays and you know, I saw them and they're fantastic. Now, right, these are people who are communicating. And she said, well, I'm just suppressing things. I said, no, you're communicating them in a healthier way, because first you're reflecting on them and realizing, oh, I'm going to be projecting my stuff onto him because it's really not his, and then you're working on that within yourself, and then, because of that, you have this. You know, you're taking this kind of personal accountability, so to speak. Right, and you're accepting the way that this behavior is and how it's impacting you, and then, therefore, you're not projecting onto the other person, you're just communicating. This is how I feel when this happens.
Cleveland Oakes:And that segues us once again into these last two A's, which are authenticity and agency, and I, like what you said is part of of this, of this idea, is accepting. What part do you have in which you really can control it? Right, you know, we, we, we saw a variation of of the uh of the serenity prayer what sativa for the things I can control. Indica for the things that I cannot. Thank you, thank you, dave and Lori, for that field trip, for sharing that with us.
Lindsay Oakes:But it's a, it's a version of the serenity prayer which is Lord, give me the power for give me the power to to change the things I can and and give me the ability to accept the things that I can't and learn the difference between the two. We can't make people look at their stuff, we can't. You could sit there and you, I can tell you until I'm blue in the face and you could tell me and we could tell the kids, but at the end of the day they, everybody, has to pave their own path yeah, they have to use, utilize their agency, yep absolutely we utilize their agency, yep.
Lindsay Oakes:Absolutely Utilize their agency. Right, and it all also links back to right. It's better to live the Dharma of a you know to, to live your own Dharma poorly, than the Dharma of another. Well, do you know, you have to do what aligns with you and what resonates with you, and if you make a mistake, you make a mistake. You have to just dust yourself off.
Lindsay Oakes:Take accountability, and that's what we're going through here with you know, with the Tim Huckleberry now, because you know he's back and but he's, you know he here's the thing that we've created in this household, right, I mean, and I said to him, I said I could tell you, I told you so, but it's not going to be helpful.
Lindsay Oakes:But at the end of the day, he's been listening to us because he had a bad situation in the apartment with a roommate who was using substances and he felt really uncomfortable. But our open communication and not shaming kids in our household right, the kids that we've raised worked in our favor. Because he came to us, he said I'm not comfortable there, I'm worried about myself, I can't save my friend and I'm tired of being in this place. Can I come home? And you know what? We bought him a bed. It was here in two days and he's back and he already looks better, he already feels better, he is much more cooperative than he's ever been, but because he made some choices and he walked a path and he experienced that failure on his own and he said you know what? This is really not working.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, that's the important thing Anybody in your life that you're trying to save. Sometimes you just got to let them hit rock bottom.
Lindsay Oakes:You do Because you can tell your kids right. I said this to you about somebody I work with who, like the daughter, has a lot of issues and she takes a test with the daughter and does all the college work with the daughter and I'm like, but what's going to happen when your daughter has to actually graduate and take the board exam? You can't sit with her and take the test for her. No, so it's. You have to realize, like we have to let people make mistakes and it's better to make a mistake when you're 20 than it is to make it at 50. Because someone has bailed you out, yeah, than it is to make it at 50 because someone has bailed you out and enabled you for your whole life.
Cleveland Oakes:You know what that brings us to our next topic where I want to talk about. I have, like I said, the book I haven't read yet by Mel Robbins Let them, but I do know enough about it that it segues it kind of dovetails perfectly into your last point, which is, you know, let's say, with parents who are very much trying to control children, or parents or folks that are very much trying to control the situation, mel Robbins explains that her the let them philosophy is you have, let them do what they're going to do. Or, as the Bible says I give you the blessing, I give you the curse, I give you life, I give you death, and you choose. It is. And she continues let them do what they're going to do. It is not your job to control others.
Cleveland Oakes:So an example of that with someone's not meeting your expectations. So instead of saying like, why won't they? I'll focus on me. Listen, I can't control what that person's doing over there, let me withdraw myself. What do you think about that? And how it, and how it corresponds to what we just talked about before the power.
Lindsay Oakes:It's just saying people have to be ready to take personal accountability right and to be their authentic selves, and if someone is not ready, like I was saying earlier, you cannot make them Right, right.
Cleveland Oakes:Why is letting go different than giving up?
Lindsay Oakes:Well, letting go is a way of relieving yourself of the burden, right. It's a way to kind of forgive people who haven't said I'm sorry or who haven't tried to make amends. You can just make amends with yourself and be nothing I can do here. So, right, and that's something that I think that you've been working on. I'm pretty skilled at it and I realized that when people are triggering to me, sometimes I just have to excuse myself from those situations. Right, it happens with some of the you know, as I contract do a lot of contract work.
Lindsay Oakes:So if people send snippy emails and things, I remember I said to a woman I have a set of boundaries that I adhere to in my personal and professional life and this is unacceptable. Please do not give me any more work. And they were like what? No, we'll talk to the person, right? And then they said here's a solution. You can work on a different team, right. And all I said was I spoke up for myself. I spoke up Right. And and you do? You have to speak up for yourself and realize, like you do not have to tolerate other people's behavior that you cannot control.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, you know, like an example of why a lot of why letting go is not the same as giving up is, if you were on a runaway train and you were yelling at everybody on the train, we got to get off this train. We got to get off the train and everybody's laughing at you and you get an opportunity at the next stop to get off that train before it goes off a cliff. Are you wrong for getting off the train? No, not at all. So that's not. That's like hey, hey, all these other folks can go. I cannot change their minds. I'm, in fact, I'm not gonna die to change their minds. I am going to save me.
Cleveland Oakes:Um, some practical tools that rob that robbins gives in the book is to reframe your frustration. Um, using the let them mantra as a way to avoid trying to fix other people's situations or other people's problems, and journaling and like what would need to happen for me to? For what would? What would happen if I released my need to control others? One of the biggest problems in culture today. Jonathan Haidt speaks to it in, in, in the, in the anxious.
Lindsay Oakes:I just want to interject for a second, because when you're talking about what would happen, the other thing is is that we have to also get comfortable with, like sometimes being OK with just being alone and not associ in with other people, that you know. They change their behavior and then they get frustrated because they're not being who they are, and then they get frustrated how people interact with them. Right, right.
Cleveland Oakes:Well, one of the things I was getting ready to just jump in there as we're getting ready to wrap this conversation up, is jump in there as I'm reading Jonathan Haidt's the Anxious Generation, which is a very interesting read, after reading the Myth of Normal, and in chapter six, where they talk about I need your life where you have time to listen to these books, because you know why I got time to listen to these books is I'm always driving people all over the place. I'm going, I'm driving people.
Cleveland Oakes:The Queen, mom, I'm driving the Queen Mother to school. It takes an hour to go to drive the church. You know we're driving here, we're driving there, I'm going to the gym. So this is where I get all this time to listen, to listen to these things, because you are the chauffeur.
Lindsay Oakes:Because I am the chauffeur, so I have to, and I'm the ATM.
Cleveland Oakes:You're the ATM. Oh my God, listen, boom, we need to go.
Lindsay Oakes:Those are the two biggest responsibilities as parents chauffeur and ATM.
Cleveland Oakes:Banking and transportation, finance and transportation. This is Oaks Finance and Transportation. But one of the things he talks about is the sociogenic diseases, right, so we think about the danger of COVID or measles or mumps, but there are sociogenic diseases that are just as viral. When you say something, it's not a mistake that they say something on the internet has gone viral, because there are viral diseases that when we were so worried about what other people are doing and so worried about this and so worried about that that you are actually when you're, not when you're, when you're trying to hold everybody else accountable, You're not holding yourself accountable.
Cleveland Oakes:You're not holding yourself accountable. Ago, one and two of my clients who are who are young men, actually brought this to my attention in two separate conversations was isn't it amazing that one of the big, greatest scriptures in the Bible is? Jesus says you're looking at the straw in your brother's eye and you have a rafter on your face, a rafter for and you don't even realize you have a rafter, and so that means that you are calling out to someone else for their accountability, when first and foremost you should be calling out. You should be looking to yourself for your own.
Lindsay Oakes:Absolutely. You know, and you can also in those moments say that the other person, right, like I can't control it, but like you can also have compassion for the other person in that obviously they're going through something right? I told you that on the flight on the way to Florida, when the flight attendant was so nasty to me and you were like, oh my god, I've never had a bat and I was like you know what, maybe she's upset that she's working on christmas eve, right, and she's not home, maybe something's going on in her life. And you were like, oh yeah, I didn't think about that, right, because you were just like, wow, I'm blown away because nobody is ever rude on JetBlue Nobody, yeah, and we've been on since and nobody's been rude, but she was nasty, yeah, yeah, she was wild.
Lindsay Oakes:But, I was just. Maybe she's going through something, and that's that's how we have to look at things.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, I think, a question I would like to ask you in closing. I got two questions I want to ask you as a as a CI, as a CI person, what would you say or how do you answer this question? How do I stay authentic while accepting the choices of others?
Lindsay Oakes:Well, the way that you stay authentic is always by presenting your authentic self, by setting boundaries by, you know. By by basically, I mean it's just that you have to be able to be who you are. You'd be comfortable with who you are. Set boundaries, speak up Right, don't be afraid to speak up Right, but then also, like, be OK with the things that you're not OK with. Just don't internalize them and make them your own.
Cleveland Oakes:And what are some CI questions that you would ask somebody who is struggling with accountability, both in themselves and in others, or maybe even trying to control others?
Lindsay Oakes:Well, you know I would. I would ask about their. You know, I would ask particular questions about what happened and what the situation is and try to tie it back to where it came from by asking about any emotions that come up Right and then tying that emotion. Is it a familiar feeling? Who did you talk to about it? You know just stuff like that. Because that's the right. And where did you learn that from? Is a big one? Right, because? Or what kind of right?
Lindsay Oakes:Something I think I said to like I said to my client when she said that she had a really chaotic household, and I said so, like you have a child. Now, what does a child that's seven or eight need? Right, and so it's an understanding of what's needed. But what wasn't given to the client? Right, and so that's another one. What would that person need? Oh, you have a child.
Lindsay Oakes:What would you want your child to do? If they were in this situation? Who would you want them to talk to? Right, or you know how, you know what would you, what would you want them to? What would you like? What would you want them to do? And that is very powerful for people, especially when they have kids, right. I had a client whose husband was using some substances, and only recreationally, not in a, you know, in a, where it was you know a problem, and she was so upset and I said to her well, what if you said to him oh well, how would you feel if our son was your age 20, whatever, and doing that? And she was like, oh, that's such a better thing to say to him than screaming at him about how much I'm upset with him about it.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think that's a. Um, that's a good. I think there's a. There's really not many much more to say on the topic other than that I want to be accountable to people's time. You often tell me that I'm that. I'm not especially in my own sessions, but in response to that, one of my clients did say but my marriage counseling sessions run over too, and they so good when they run over that that's not how the person actually taught. But I just did that so that there's no identifiers. Um, but I really think this is a good place to stop it. And when so many of the books that I've read in the recent past and definitely you can get the last word on this, but I read um Jason Pargens, I think I'm starting to worry about this black box of doom, which is a really good commentary on the modern environment, where folks are trying to hold other people accountable but are not accountable as to how their actions and how their interactions with each other are, are just as toxic as the.
Lindsay Oakes:I mean, you're just listening to all of these really great educational psychology books and I am reading Counting Miracles by Nicholas Sparks.
Cleveland Oakes:Well, that's good too, I think, happy.
Lindsay Oakes:I think I think the female listeners in the audience my guilty pleasure books. He writes like a woman would write romance and I absolutely love his books and I always wait for the next one to come out. And I started it when we were in Florida and I didn't get a chance to finish it. So every day I try to read a few pages. Get a chance to finish it. So every day I try to read a few pages. I just love him as an author.
Cleveland Oakes:I just love him, yeah, and I think that's a good place to end it at. So you got your educational reading and then, probably more important than educational reading, is the the pleasure reading the self-care.
Lindsay Oakes:It's my self-care.
Cleveland Oakes:So this has been Cleveland and Lindsay and this has been another episode of the devil, you don't know. Thank you,
