The Devil You Don’t Know
In The Devil You Don’t Know, Lindsay, Cleveland, and their guests discuss personal growth and development by taking chances and getting out of your comfort zone. Topics range from whimsical to serious and everything in between but are always relevant to growth and development.
The Devil You Don’t Know
Navigating Life's Chaos: Embracing Connection in the Land of Confusion
What happens when two therapists, bound by marriage, tackle life's chaos together? From home renovations that never seem to end to tales of a high-tech toilet that's more intelligent than we'd like to admit, our lives have been anything but dull. We've celebrated our daughter's 17th birthday and navigated the frustrating saga of our son's dorm room ceiling failures, all while finding moments of culinary joy in a vegan smoked sweet potato ravioli. This episode is a whirlwind tour of our personal adventures, filled with laughter, love, and a fair share of absurdity.
As the world feels increasingly unpredictable, we find solace in the insights of Gabor Maté, reflecting on how normalcy can exist in a toxic landscape. We share our thoughts on political identity and the challenges of understanding perspectives beyond a single lens, all while trying not to trip over construction tools in our living room. There's even a humorous detour involving a flirtatious conversation about dual citizenship that might just leave you chuckling. It's a reminder that humor and human connection can be powerful anchors in turbulent times.
Please email us at Gettoknowthedevil@gmail.com
This is Cleveland.
Lindsay:This is Lindsay.
Cleveland:And this after. Another really long really long break with explanations. Maybe is another episode of the Devil. You Don't Know, Lindsay, what is going on? Where have we been? What have we been doing and, like, what's life about?
Lindsay:Well, we've been living in a state of renovation since the end of May, so we have not been able to record, because I don't think we're ever in the house without a lot of noise happening around us. And then the weekends have been really busy with traveling and the queen mom, who just had her 17th birthday.
Cleveland:Oh yeah, congratulations, Congratulations.
Lindsay:Yep, she, you went out last night and I stayed home with her hackling all night. I think they hackled until 3 am and then we're back up by 8 hackling again.
Cleveland:Yeah, they were just having a good old time.
Lindsay:Yeah, so she had a little sleepover last night, but we've just been really busy and also, like you know, getting into it a little bit over here with ourselves, so getting into it a little bit, a little bit.
Cleveland:Yeah, we're getting into it a little bit, a little bit. Are you going to psychoanalyze me? Live on the air at the moment.
Lindsay:No, not at all, cause I don't want you to psychoanalyze me.
Cleveland:You know the problem when you have two therapists that are married to each other. I think we're always, you know, thinking about our trauma, their trauma, each other's trauma, and then re-traumatizing each other at the same moment as we're trying to figure out our stuff.
Lindsay:Yeah, yeah, very true, very true. But I have been very, very much enjoying my new kitchen. I have the best stove ever, which everybody is envious of, and I've decided no matter where we live, I'm never having a different stove, so I don't care if I move in somewhere and it has a brand new stove. I'm buying this blue star stove. It's a great stove. It's the best stove I've ever owned, so have you had anything vegan lately? That's been really good, aside from what I cook for you.
Cleveland:Last night it was my buddy, dave, or as he's known on this show, babe. Remember, I gave him a pseudonym you give everyone pseudonyms. Um, but it was his uh, 53rd birthday last night, so we were out in the city and we were at Oceana and, um, they had this really good, uh, a vegan butternut squash. I said it was ravioli.
Lindsay:You told me it was smoked sweet potato.
Cleveland:Smoked. Yes, that's what it was. It was smoked sweet potato and pecans. How could I ever forget that? Because it tasted like. It tasted like a pecan sweet potato pie, but in a ravioli.
Lindsay:Really, the pecans were in the in the ravioli, or are they on the sauce? They?
Cleveland:were on the sauce, oh nice, and it was a very, very, very light sauce with the pecan, and so you got that nice crunch. Where did I get butternuts? Because I'm thinking of your butternut squash ravioli.
Lindsay:That's right, which I have not made you lately.
Cleveland:Yes, but it was a nice, because, boy, is it a bitch to make. Yeah, it was good. It was good.
Lindsay:Nice, very nice. Yeah, we've had quite a few things going on, actually too Right, and I think some of them fall into the realm of do these weird things only ever happen to us? The first one I'm going to talk about is the college drop in, how I don't think we've had an episode since his college dorm room ceiling kept dropping on him while he was sleeping. Maybe I think the last time we recorded was in September, but you can go, it was this whole saga. I don't think the saga was complete at that point, right, right, well, the ceiling kept falling in on him while he was sleeping because it was that drop ceiling which, when we moved him in in August I think, you said that it looked like it needed a repair and you said, from your facility's background, this should not be like this at this college. It's too expensive for them to have not replaced the ceiling tile.
Cleveland:That was right. So my old boss, she'd be proud of me.
Lindsay:So we we get a call one one day. I think it was like 5 am and he was sleeping and the ceiling fell out on him and I said I would handle it, but I think that that feared him a little bit. So he said he would handle it himself and he did. He made the call, they cleaned the room, they replaced the ceiling panel. However, they didn't fix the problem. So a couple of weeks passed, two o'clock in the morning, your child's at college and your phone is ringing and you're beeping with texts and, of course, you're terrified. Now, in the middle of the night, and the ceiling fell on him again and water is dripping out, which he's collecting in a garbage can in the room. He's washing the laundry at 2 am and you know, when he calls to security they're like ah, facilities will be in at nine.
Cleveland:Yeah, just whenever they're like ah facilities will be in at nine.
Lindsay:Yes, whenever so. And so then he ends up. They say that I called, and first of all, it's impossible to get anyone on the phone. Did we? We didn't talk about this. I mean, I was calling, we touched on it a little bit, and so anyway long of the short is that?
Lindsay:finally, I think that they got tired of hearing from me, because after they fixed it, then they set up like drainage tubes which they had draining into huge garbage cans in his room and they expected him to live like this while they repaired the HVAC system, but then they would never come in the room if he wasn't there. So the poor kid was so upset about all this and then they finally ended up fixing it, only for him to come back from class the next day to have water pouring into the room even worse than the day before. And then I had to finally call and they moved him and now he's. I mean, we haven't even heard from him.
Cleveland:he's just loving his one bedroom apartment he's got a whole apartment, so it all worked out for him right.
Lindsay:I mean, they were actually on the phone with housing, who it's impossible to get a hold of because they only have an email they. The response that I got from housing was well, we won't charge you any extra for this other housing option.
Lindsay:I was like I didn't think that you would, yeah because it's your fault, your poor maintenance your shoddy facilities were so then that happened and then, I think, maybe around the same time, um, the queen mom's friends had taken in a kitty oh yes, unbeknownst to their mother, yes, that is true who needed to be formula fed. And they took the cat in a day before they were leaving to go to like Jamaica or something.
Cleveland:Yeah, yeah.
Lindsay:So, then, the girls are frantically searching for a cat sitter. Who and who did they call us? So then, we for spent a week taking care of this tiny cat that could fit in the palm of your hand, that we had to bottle feed, and that was quite an adventure too said, volunteered me.
Cleveland:He's like he's, he's home, he's not really working right now, um, and and he's taken care of kittens before, so let's just get him to do it. And then I met the little guy. Oh, it was so cute. I call him arugula. What's his leo? But arugula, but when he was here was arugula.
Lindsay:Arugula will be back for thanksgiving, that's right and and he's still drinking out of a bottle.
Cleveland:That's yeah, it's not gonna no, no, no, we're gonna break him out of that when he, when he gets here, oh yeah, you're gonna get and you had to take him to the vet yeah, he had such a severe eye infection almost lost his eye, little guy poor thing.
Lindsay:Yeah, so that that's you know. We've really just been having a lot of things going on over here. The bathroom is almost ready. We have a second toilet again now. There's no sink in there, but we do have a second toilet again Now there's no sink in there, but we do have a second toilet.
Cleveland:You know what? Listen, okay. So, guys, I'm very impulsive from time to time and make bad decisions. Um, bad decision I made on this project right here, which caused a lot of consternation, and I still will say that I I liked it, but it does, it did not.
Lindsay:Nobody else on the planet.
Cleveland:Nobody else on the planet liked it, but I got this funky blue floor that was amazing looking to me but just did not work.
Lindsay:It wasn't amazing.
Cleveland:Tell us, tell folks there.
Lindsay:No, really, the story was that you did not listen. You said you were going to do something and you did not do it the right way. You were supposed to go. When the tile was backordered. You were supposed to go with the tile that we loved, right.
Cleveland:Right.
Lindsay:Which looks great, fabulous, and you were supposed to go to the designer and say I need a floor for this tile yes, and you didn't do that. For this tile, yes, and you didn't do that. You just basically talked to some dude on the phone and picked out a random floor tile that was the same brand, thinking that it would just go with the tile on the wall, and it didn't my answer to that is make America great again.
Cleveland:Thank you, no, it was a bad. It didn't match. But when we went together and this is why you have to collaborate, guys when we went together, well, it's not even so, much about collaboration.
Lindsay:Excuse my interruption, it's about listening to your wife. And then you agreed to go and do that, but then you didn't do it and then you got mad at me when you had something in there that didn't go with the rest of the bathroom, correct?
Cleveland:I was wrong.
Lindsay:I love you.
Cleveland:I love you National apology, but I want. But my answer to that is we will bring back fossil fuels and I will give you your jobs back. So that's that's my answer.
Lindsay:I don't like to talk about politics.
Cleveland:We're not talking about politics. I'm just saying I'm giving a non answer to a very talking about politics, and that's really been the only thing.
Lindsay:yesterday. You were talking about politics while I was sitting at the dining room table and you were in the kitchen and I was just nodding, but I was so irritated.
Cleveland:Oh, I was talking to them about you, with you.
Lindsay:You were talking.
Cleveland:You were just telling me that kind of updates because I don't watch the news. Oh yes, because you don't watch the news and I don't like. The updates give me anxiety just as much as watching the news gives me anxiety.
Lindsay:I thought I was aggravating you, but wait, wait. No, I wasn't aggravating, I just don't like to talk about politics, so I want to come back.
Cleveland:So that was my colossal fail. Colossal fail on the bathroom, colossal fail Right, if I a passing for failing your boy succeeded, so so, but here's where. This is where I made the comeback and this is where I want you guys to know it's always darkest before the dawn. I got this and this is going to be a commercial for woodbridge electric toilets. I got this awesome woodbridge toilet that was hundreds, no thousands of dollars less than the ten thousand dollar, uh, kohler, that I was originally looking at, and, and, lindsey, would you tell the folks?
Lindsay:oh, the toilet is so amazing and I and I'm, and I'm back in her. Good graces, it has a nightlight on it so when you get up in the middle of the night you could see it from the hallway. Now, of course, the bathroom has no door, so anytime any of us use the toilet now upstairs, we have to loudly announce to the rest of the house not to come out of their room, come out.
Lindsay:The door will be on tomorrow though yes, yes, so it's just been for the weekend. But not only that, it has a heated seat, it's like an auto flush. It has bidet features where you can change from woman to man, change the position of the spray, the temperature of the spray. This thing is amazing. I never knew I needed a toilet like this and now I don't know how I'm going to use any other toilet in my life.
Cleveland:It's terrible right denise. Denise came over, even used it without the door and was like I feel like I'm in an airport yeah, because it's like all fancy and it even auto flushes.
Lindsay:It auto flushes and then, if you want to do like you could do the half flush or the full flush.
Cleveland:I'm surprised it doesn't play music while you wait well, I read you a book, the other one, the, the bigger one. I think it does have some of those additional features does it read you a? Book, but it's got the deodorizer, all of this, other features that yeah, I mean.
Lindsay:And it blow dries your butt too oh it has a blow dry button, nice, yeah, it's a really great toilet and, yeah, I mean what a, what a bargain that you got it for.
Cleveland:So, yeah, it was a big win. It was a win. It was a win.
Lindsay:I came back, I think by the time we're finished, because the bathroom upstairs will be done and now we're waiting for some more things for the downstairs bathroom. We're about to rewire all the electric in the downstairs area that's gonna be and we put the hvac in. So we've pretty much been under construction now for several months, several months, and I mean I do like these people but like I'm a little tired of seeing them every day.
Cleveland:Do we have to get them a christmas, a christmas present?
Lindsay:no, because that dude is ogling me every day when we're here oh, he's a nice guy he's a nice guy, but he's just like I think he likes when you leave oh, I think so he's like always looking me up and down and then like stopping to chat with me in the kitchen. He's a nice guy though he's a nice guy.
Cleveland:He's a nice guy folks can hire. We won't say names, but he's a nice guy.
Lindsay:He is a nice guy and you know what I did. I did consider, you know he's single. So you know, I mean he is from Barbados and you know I am interested in the dual citizenship.
Cleveland:So if this doesn't work out? Oh wait, I thought you were. Wait, I'm just, I'm like slow to the take here.
Lindsay:I thought you were going to offer him out to? No, I was. I'm like I'm looking out for myself. I feel like you keep behaving the way you did with the bathroom. My next husband is going to be from the Caribbean.
Cleveland:Well, first of all this sounds like this is a potential episode of Dateline. They were podcasters and then it became murder.
Lindsay:Yeah, so like, let's and let's get into today's episode, right, which is really kind of about the uncertainty of the world right now. Get into today's episode, right, which is really kind of about the uncertainty of the world right now. And, um, you know, right now I've been studying for a while with gabor monte, which everybody knows and he has, you know, that whole thing about how it's not healthy to be well adjusted in a toxic world, right, and so I think right now everybody feels a little bit like they don't know what's going on. And we're going to actually go see him in May I got tickets for us. He's going to be talking about his book, the Myth of Normal, which is basically that normal is a myth, right, right, and that you know that we are, you know, kind of being psychologically manipulated by the programming in the world.
Cleveland:Yes, and that's and that's one of the things that folks don't understand. When we thought about this episode, you know, I wish I could sing it, but I don't need to get a ding for copyright infringement but I really was thinking of the song by Genesis, the Land of Confusion. Do you remember that song?
Lindsay:No, but you know me. I don't know anything except Hallmark movies and the Gilmore.
Cleveland:Girls. That's because you're a Russian spy. But no, you know the song when you hear it. I'm not going to sing it, but do you remember? This is the world we live in and these are the hands that were given. It was a big song, I mean, I might have heard it.
Cleveland:Yeah, it was big back in the 80s, but you know basically what that song is about is the state of the world, land of confusion, right, Right, we're not going to talk politics, but you can see what's going on in America here and how folks are divided and over what you know. Like Linz, talk a little bit about that. I know you were, I know you had a friend over the other day that is that is on the surface seems like they're deeply liberal, but when you had a conversation, you know, I think they she agreed that no one should be all of one thing.
Lindsay:Oh, absolutely. But I've always said that, right, I've always said that nobody falls all the way to one side or all the way to the other side. But the you know, I think you know we have to choose right when we vote, and but it's, it's about you know, it's about the individual, and I think that that's really what people are in an uproar about, more than the actual conservatism versus liberalism, I think that people are in an uproar about the actual person, right right.
Cleveland:So let me ask you that person got in because of political polarization, because of economic instability and because a lot of the stuff that we see around the globe, so people often look to leaders to save them or parties or things. So I want to ask a question to you that maybe you can help our listeners answer.
Lindsay:I can't stand him, but anyway, I just can't. I can't. I mean, it's just disgusting. He's a disgusting person to me. He's a narcissist. He clearly has severe childhood trauma and needs attention. Yeah, but anyway, carry on.
Cleveland:Yeah, so, so, so, but you echo the sentiment of a lot of folks. A lot of folks even voted for him. You know, feel that, but it's but.
Lindsay:People are looking for peace, right, and I think part of the attraction- I think people are looking for someone to fix them Right, right and to fix things, and the problem is is that we don't need another person to fix things, we need to fix ourselves.
Cleveland:Right, and if you look and if you're familiar with anything that's going on in the world today is more and more countries are voting in strongmen, and I believe it is for that reason.
Lindsay:I don't think he's a strong man, I think he's a pussy. But anyway, carry on. Yeah, don't get me all activated.
Cleveland:Yeah, I didn't mean to get you activated, but when I say strong man, that style like a dictatorship style, a person who is telling you what to do with your life instead of you choosing what to do with your life, right, absolutely. So my question for you is is for all of those folks out there that are listening, that feel strongly or don't one way or another is what can you do to find peace when the world itself feels overwhelming, when eggs are $8 and you don't like the president?
Lindsay:Well, you can go vegan because beans are cheaper. But, um, you know, you can just work on yourself and sit with yourself and see what comes up for you, because it doesn't matter. There's always going to be somebody that doesn't like that person. There's always going to be kind of tumultuous, toxic situations in the world, so you just have to learn to be OK with not being OK.
Cleveland:Right, I agree with that and that transit that brings us over to our next part, which is finding peace in chaos, and I think one of the I want to Well, you know it works for me.
Lindsay:What oblivion, what is? I don't watch anything. I don't listen to anything and I kind of walk around you always, you always actually tell me that I kind of walk around in this like peaceful, kind of happy existence, without any knowledge of what's going on around.
Cleveland:Oh, yeah, and I'm like wait, wait, you didn't hear what happened and you're like nope, and I don't want to know?
Lindsay:And what do I always tell you? If you're like, did you hear about? I'm like, if it's going to give me anxiety, don't tell me. Stop right now, right, because I don't want, I don't believe in having to, you know, sit and I, I, you know, you can hear it third party, right?
Cleveland:So I don't need to sit here and you know, dig everything up on my own, yeah, and I and I want to, and I wrote a note to myself and I haven't said that for a long time to everyone who's like you know he's back saying it was in my notes. But I wrote a note to myself which was anchor yourself in hope. I I'm really big on hope, right, even on days where there feels like there's no hope or the situation is hopeless. I think hope is is the thing that fuels, should be the thing that fuels you to move forward. Right, I hope I can get out of this hole. I'm going to get out of this hole.
Lindsay:Right? Well, also, it's just the ability to not stay stuck in the status quo, right, and that's what a lot of people do is they stay stuck in this status quo, so to speak? And you know, you and I've talked about this a lot lately is like people don't really I said this to you today, actually, when I said how are you? You said good, and then you said fine. And I was like well, what is good and fine, right? Like people don't really even know how they are, they don't know how to describe themselves, how to describe what they feel, what their emotions are, how they perceive things, and that's, you know. I think people just kind of go through life in this place of oh all right, well, just, this is just how it's going to be, instead of trying to make it something else.
Cleveland:Right, and people put their hope in things and they put their hope in other people. But who should they put their hope in?
Lindsay:themselves, you know, because we are in control of our own lives. Right, we control our own destiny.
Cleveland:Yeah, I pulled out a little biblical quote for this one. This is from Second Corinthians four eight. It says we are hard pressed on every side, but not crushed, perplexed but not in despair. So we are. I'm going to just read that one more time we are hard pressed on every side, but not crushed, we are per in despair. So that scripture to me is talks about resilience, like hey, this is puzzling, but I'm not despairing the puzzle. Hey, I am hard pressed but I can, I can deal with this. It makes me kind of think of Jimmy Buffett's equal strain on all parts where you may be hard pressed and there may be equal strain, but it's evenly distributed. So how do you get there? Or how would you help a client get there?
Lindsay:What to get to a place of hope.
Cleveland:Yeah, or get to a place where they can just like feel, where they can have resilience, where they can feel uh uh pressed but not crushed, or they can be puzzled but not despairing.
Lindsay:Well, what I do with clients is just work to get to the core of their issues, right Right, to get to that kind of inner child peace, because a lot of why they do feel like they are in despair is because of the things that have happened to them, because we've talked about this many times, but most people do not live their authentic life. Most people live their life according to the voices of other people telling them how to live their lives, and so that's a big thing that I ask a lot of my clients. When they say I don't know if I'm going to actually go to grad school, I know I got in that good school and I was so excited and I'm like, well, who's telling you? Not to you or someone else, right?
Lindsay:And I think I said to a client recently who had, you know, some struggles with parenting and I said, well, when you look at your child and you're thinking about all these things, about your husband, and you're worried about how he's parenting, I was like, are you looking at your child and seeing your child that you two created together, or are you seeing the little version of yourself who was abandoned and wasn't treated well? And she was like oh, yeah, wow, yeah, I was like that's, that's exactly what she would see was her own childhood, and so it wasn't making her present in that moment. Like you have to get present with your pain and like you know, you have to let your voice be louder than the voices around you, and people are really afraid of that because they're afraid to go against the grain.
Cleveland:You made me think of, uh, of something, um, that's something that I've been reflecting on um a lot lately, even, you know, with the kids. Here is my proficiency as a father, as a parent, right, and I realized part of the mistake that I made with my kids that we all made, because our parents probably made that mistake before us is I raised them as the kid that I wanted to be, not who they wanted to be, and so in their childhood I was trying to fix the mistakes of my childhood but not allowing them to be themselves. And I think it goes back to kind of what you were saying is that part of the problem in this confused world is folks are living other people's narratives.
Lindsay:Right, a hundred percent. That's like most people, right? I mean, how many times have I said to you almost everybody that I know that's a teacher state. They hate their job but they stay there because there's a pension and benefits, but they live every single day in this place of misery, right, and it takes a lot to kind of climb out and say you know what? I'm just going to take the risk and do something different, right, right, yeah.
Lindsay:But I mean, I think you know, when you were parenting, you were young and I don't think that you had you know and I don't want I don't want to say this in the wrong way or say this in a way that might be offensive but I don't think that you had an awareness.
Lindsay:Because of the way that you were raised in the religion that you had to participate in, I don't think that you were even aware of what you were doing as a parent, that you were just trying to be. You know better and give your kids a different opportunity than you had. And then you know, now you know it's like now at you know, 50 years old, 51 years old, right, you start to recognize like, oh, wow, like you know, this is what happened to me. And then you know we all do that, we all project our stuff and I always tell everybody that I know my clients included, like when they're worried about their parenting. I'm like we all give our kids plenty of material for therapy. Ok, we do, yes, we do Right, and you know so and stand up comedy.
Cleveland:Eventually, one day, a material for both. Somebody I worked with once said that they were taking a stand up comic class and they'd mentioned that to the person that they were in therapy. And the guy was like hey, I hope you are recording taking notes during those sessions, because those would be the best jokes that you probably ever come away with. And it turned out to be true. Um, I want to talk about this next thing. That we often talk about, um, especially and we were just talking about it um, when we were washing dishes is question the narrative. A lot of folks don't even know what the hell they're talking about when they talk about topics, right? We? We have a friend that you're just talking about the other day as well, I'm going to talk about what I want to talk about, and you know what it can stop me, and it's like huh, but do you really even know fully what you're speaking about, right?
Lindsay:And so I want to speak to a big person who questions the narrative. Remember we were listening to Gabor mate in the car last week. I always put the lectures on for you to listen to as well, because I find them very interesting but he always questions people's narratives and he does it so well.
Lindsay:He does it so well and remember, I think he, like some of the examples are like he'll, he'll, you know. He'll ask well, tell me about your happy childhood. It should only take a minute and then everyone talks about things and he'll be like no, it's not your childhood, you're not telling me about your childhood. You're telling me you live near a park. You're telling me this oh no, everything was fine in my childhood. My parents were together, blah, blah.
Lindsay:Did anyone ever hit you? Oh well, I was greek and I was slapped around. And he's like so if your daughter, if you had a daughter, you're like that was five, six and, and you know, would you be okay with people slapping her around? And then they're like, oh, no, right, and the other thing right. Like, oh, you had a happy childhood. Did anyone drink in your life? Oh well, my father was an alcoholic. And he's like, oh, okay, that's interesting, right? So you know, and so it does. It makes you question the narrative and I think that's what makes it so hard for people like you and me me, when we do all this work, is that you work on yourself and sometimes it's sad to look at your childhood and to see the things that happened to you and the things that, like you know, occurred, and then you're like, oh God, my life was kind of messed up, you know.
Cleveland:Yeah, especially when a partner may choose. Your eyes look like they're watering up, are you OK?
Lindsay:Oh yeah, I mean, that's just like you know, because I've been doing this training for like a year. Oh, and it's like, oh, you haven't. It still messes me up, yeah really real emotional but see, but this is good, this is good.
Cleveland:This is good whenever you know you. One of the things that used to criticize me for um when I first started, uh you still don't look at your emotions.
Lindsay:No, but?
Cleveland:but no, yes, I wrote a whole article about that that's coming out, but no is used to make me aware that I was uncomfortable when people were having an emotional reaction.
Lindsay:You're still uncomfortable when I have an emotional reaction.
Cleveland:Yeah, but I'm not as much anymore, because now I realize that these emotional moments that people have are genuine moments. It's a moment where I'm going to cry or I'm going to water up right now because I feel comfortable with you, that I can do this Right, and it used to be. It used to be a problem for me. It's not now, but that's the thing. That's the thing that when you, when we talk about question the narrative is not only question your own narrative, question the narrative of people who are telling you things, and when someone is prior, because their narrative is not yours Right, and you should not change your narrative because of someone else's truth or someone else's ideology.
Cleveland:Everything you think should be based on your narrative and your awareness of yourself.
Lindsay:I mean I talk about that all the time, about my own. I mean we've talked about on here too, about my own journey and going to college and choosing a career path and being able to, like, navigate a divorce and do all these things with so many voices chirping in my ear about why it was wrong and why I needed to choose this path. And then I look around at other people, even in my family, and like they're not happy, right, and the thing is is I think I'm happy, I'm happy with my life, I'm happy with my choices.
Cleveland:And the thing is is I think I'm happy, I'm happy with my life, I'm happy with my choices, and I kind out here. But part of the problems with our family is that and this is, and this goes back to the Bible is who Jesus, as a prophet, is not welcome in his own home. Is that? There is this idea? Because you know that my brother before me put up boundaries and had standards, and like this is these are the and so then, what happened?
Lindsay:Everybody talked about him and his wife. Yes, everybody talked about him and his wife in such a negative way. Yes, right, and we had a lovely time with them. Yes, a lovely time. And what's the difference between them and everyone else in their family is that they have boundaries boundaries, and they expect to be treated in a certain way and they expect to live their lives in a certain way, and they've created that lifestyle.
Cleveland:Yeah, yeah, and I think that is something that folks don't respect um anymore, and that leads to all this confusion. Um, and it brings us to the next part, which is choose connection over division. Right, it's, it's. You know, what I do in my house, as long as it's not illegal or moral, is my choice, yeah.
Lindsay:A hundred percent and you can choose differently than I choose, right, we have a lot of things that we don't have in common, but then we can always find this common ground between us, and I think that that's what makes the relationship work for us. I mean, when you were out last night, right, one of the guys was saying like that he can't go out, really, without his girlfriend, and I was like my gosh, I mean, and then I almost felt like you got offended when I was like I had the best night last night.
Lindsay:I watched the Gilmore Girls all night and I went to bed at like nine and then you got home at like four in the morning.
Cleveland:Oh yeah, and I'm, I was beat.
Lindsay:I was supposed to go to church, I was supposed to go to church and I just, I just didn't even, I just didn't even make it but it's okay to you know to have that like right Cause that comes from a deeper issue of trust which we don't have to talk about today. Right, but, um, you know, I think it's you know you do. You need to be able to, and you need to connect with other people and not listen to their viewpoint. So much you can, you can respect them without having to understand them, and that's a huge kind of principle that I live by. Do I understand why a lot of people do things? No, but I respect that. They have their opinion and it works for them. Right, religion is a big one for me. Do I understand why your family is so, so, so committed to that one church and they get like almost mad at you if you go to another church?
Cleveland:No.
Lindsay:I'm like you know what. It's fine If that works for your family. It works for them. It doesn't mean it has to work for you and be the place that you go. Yeah.
Cleveland:Yeah, this past weekend I got to hang out with Lori, our good friend Lori and we got to get Lori back on the show to promote her book at at a star trek convention and this is on topic. I just like to do a preamble got an opportunity to talk to todd stashwick who, for those of you in the audience who watched star trek picard, played captain uh liam shaw, and so, for those of you who are star trek fans, uh, todd played captain liam shaw in the most recent season of Picard. When asked from our audience member about the state of the world and how can people get along, oh, that was me. That was the question I actually asked. I forgot I was the one that asked that question because one of the things Lori didn't tell me. We were there for work. Laurie was doing some freelance work and had to record a bunch of the panels and engage in some back and forth with the folks. So I got up and asked a couple of questions.
Cleveland:But one of the things I asked Todd Stashwick was about the journey of Captain Shaw and how he was a person that came out in the beginning. He hated Jean-Luc Picard and he hated Will Riker and he didn't want to understand them, or he just had an idea of them. And Todd went on to answer. That question was saying the problem is is that most people are stuck in their story and don't want to understand anyone else's story, and it was what the season became about is Captain Shaw, who had a very real reason to be angry at both Jean-Luc and Will R. They made the choices that they made and he was like, in understanding that, he was like Shaw, still didn't agree with what they did, but he grew in a way, because he took their story and brought it in part of his story so that they could all understand each other. And that is something that is going wrong in the world today. Right is everyone is stuck.
Lindsay:I'm right, you're wrong well, I think what we do is we neglect our inner world. Yes, right, and uh, we're going, I think, friday night to see krishnadas again, yes, again which is, oh, my gosh busy day, friday.
Lindsay:Oh, that's right. Oh goodness, yeah, so, but anybody right who hasn't? Um, you know, I mean, most people probably don't know who krishnadas is right, because they're a. He's like. You know, I mean, most people probably don't know who Krishna Das is Right Because he's like a. You know, a vocalist who performs like Hindu devotional music and is wildly popular, like in the yoga and meditation world. And this is going to be your second time it was your first concert before Zac Brown and Kenny Chesney, right. But he talks about how there's not going to be anything that happens in the world that doesn't have some kind of dissatisfaction associated with it, right. But what we need to do is kind of honor our inner world and know that those feelings of not being OK are OK, right, and then that is how we can create this peace in the world and we can be serene with ourselves.
Cleveland:Yeah, and one of the things before we move on, and I think that's a good segue into our next point, which is seek renewal. But I want to give Todd a little more credit too, as Todd also talked about this lack of empathy, this lack of fellow feeling, and that we all need to be. No matter what we feel about another person, we need to be empathetic of that person. Everyone has a story. Everyone's story is valid, Right, and if what you're not doing is it legal or moral right? Diddy's going to be. I don't know if you saw the breaking news, but I don't want to hear about the breaking news.
Cleveland:Did he's did. He's going to be get a full pardon and he's going to be the white house party planner. I could show you that headline. I think it was from the Onion, but it's breaking news. But the whole thing is people have to be empathetic and understand each other's story and if what you're not doing, if what your neighbor's not doing is illegal or immoral, mind your business.
Lindsay:Right. And you know, gabor Mate developed this whole program of compassionate inquiry because we need to be compassionate, right, just like I said to you yesterday when we started to kind of get into a little bit of an altercation. Like I was washing the dishes and then you, kind of out of nowhere, like everything was fine, we were all cuddled up, and then all of a sudden you snapped at me and Lila was like what happened with him? Everything was just fine, right. And then, like later, when we talked about it, you were upset about something else.
Lindsay:And it's like this is what we have to remember is that we have to really remember that everybody has their own inner world and that things happen to them and those things are what cause people to be the way that they are today. And that's for every single person that we interact with. And that's why it's so important to have that empathy and that compassion, because we don't know what it's like to walk in another person's shoes, right, and by having compassion it's saying oh, you know what? Like I understand that person probably behaves that way as a result of something else.
Cleveland:Yeah, and I had somebody at work that I actually, before I met Todd or and had that interesting conversation, even knew you that well, it was one person at my old job that was a particular way and little diminished in stature, you know, and I had to actually think about, well, what did this person actually go through as a kid growing up, and all the bullying and the crap that he had to take, you know right, and it's like, well, this is why he shows up to work this way and let me not, let me not be a jerk back to him, but treat him with kindness and give him the kindness that he never got as a child, unfairly.
Lindsay:Right. Well, and so when people come to you and say that they perceive something in a certain way, they'll often say feel, I feel this or I feel that, but it's not a feeling, it's a perception of what happened, right, what you and I've talked about. And so people don't react to a situation. They react to their perception of the situation and then they take that perception. They always choose the worst one and then they move through life with that. And so then, when they feel unloved or unheard or unsupported right, when that's what they, how they perceive a situation, they automatically tie it to what just happened.
Lindsay:But in reality, what I do with my clients is I'm like, oh, is that a familiar feeling? When was the first time you felt that way? And people sometimes don't get it, but I'm like, I can guarantee you it wasn't right now, in the moment. I can guarantee you that this is a pattern that comes up for you over and over and over again. Because if you, for example, right people who feel unloved and unheard, right as a child, if you had all of this love and affection and you always felt loved and supported and people always listened to you and sat and heard you out, then as an adult. If one person didn't, you wouldn't be crying, right, right. So we have to have compassion for people and empathy for people that their lives led them to where they are today, right.
Cleveland:So that brings us into our next point, which is seek renewal, and I think this is a good talking point for you to continue on, which is what we speak about every week Mindfulness, mindfulness which I don't practice as much as I should. Wouldn't have bought, I would have uh, the horrible. Did you see?
Lindsay:my eyes widen over here.
Cleveland:Yeah, all of this is a video podcast which everybody's moving to and we got this nice new nook once the new table is here.
Lindsay:We're gonna go to the amish country on friday and pick up our table and then you can video away yes, whoa boom, this will be boom.
Cleveland:Maybe we'll switch to a video podcast, you know soon. Um, but mindfulness, how is that important and what can people do to practice mindfulness Be?
Lindsay:present in the moment, you know, and sit and feel the feels, right Cause this is something that you struggle with and I love you very much and I know that about you. But I tried to meditate with you once and it was a 10 minute meditation and I could hear all this noise and I look up and you're like fiddling around and looking around and you couldn't keep your eyes closed, right, because it's sometimes really uncomfortable to sit with yourself. But mindfulness is just being present in the moment, not wanting anything and not not wanting anything, and just learning. Learning that you know what right now I am okay, everything is okay right now. Right, and that's a really hard place for a lot of people to be, because it's really uncomfortable to sit and look at your stuff. It it is really really hard, it is really painful, it is very uncomfortable.
Cleveland:I actually have been and I came across this article early in my career as a therapist and transitioning from sociology over to therapy. There was a good article I think it was in the Atlantic about the amount of trauma that African-Americans in this country have faced in comparison to like other folks, right.
Lindsay:Well, and it's generational trauma, Right? You have a lot of generational trauma in your family, yeah.
Cleveland:And it was like and I was thinking about it because it's in one of the things that used to frustrate my kids, especially when they started going to school in like the Wall Street areas like the kids would be like, oh daddy didn't get, daddy didn't get me a pony last week, and I'm so upset and at the time you know, we still lived in the projects and no, we had, we lived up the block from Roosevelt houses and my kids were like dodging bullets. This is before you know Brooklyn became gentrified. Kids were like dodging bullets. This is before you know Brooklyn became gentrified.
Cleveland:Um, that particular article in the Atlantic was like the average black person probably knows about 11 people who have been murdered. Um, and I actually do know and I actually sat back and thought about growing up in the projects and in Brooklyn, new York, in the 1980s and the 1990s and I, I, I the number 11 is is too low for me and I wasn't involved in crime or any gang activity, but that I can tell you I probably know at least 20 people who were murdered. And all these traumas and all these pains come up for me, and I probably comes up for a lot of you in the audience when you start thinking about it, but you have to push through it and I'm going to surprise you right now by quoting the Bible.
Lindsay:I know now we need a visual for your eyes, right? Because this is something also that I read recently and I think it's. It's very interesting. In regards to generational trauma and Gabor does talk about this in the training as well as, like Exodus 34, seven says that he will visit the iniquity of his fathers on the children and the children's children to the third and the fourth generation. Right? So it's literally passed down in your DNA, right, and that's what he says. So you're literally a part of your parents and you're a part of your grandparents and you're a part of all these generations before you, and you share the DNA, so you share the trauma.
Cleveland:Yeah, sometimes, I mean, I think the best way and I think you just hit the nail on the head, on, on, on on certain things is it just feel like lost, like adrift, like disconnected from myself and from like my meaning and from my purpose and like from my origin, right, like like I feel like if there was like a, a, a beam of energy that is coming into me, that is like slightly askew off to an angle because I don't know anything and, like many black people in this country, just don't know anything about myself other than half my history was ripped away, right, and Mate talks about that even with folks that are Jewish and Holocaust survivors, even with folks that are Jewish and Holocaust survivors.
Lindsay:I mean, that was his father, right, was in the army and his, his mom had him and his parents, her parents, so his grandparents, his maternal grandparents, were killed in Auschwitz and he he contributes most of his childhood trauma to his infancy when his he, his mother basically abandoned him because she was experiencing such severe grief that she was passing him off to other people and his father was away fighting in the war and he was being passed around to strangers and he learned as an infant that his cries for his mother didn't mean anything. Right, because she couldn't provide the care for him and the nurturing that he needed because she was grieving so much. And he says that that's like even now he's in his seventies and he still talks about abandonment and he said that that is his biggest wound. Right, is this abandonment? And sometimes his wife is like, would you just stop it already? Right, like nobody abandoned you.
Lindsay:I was a few minutes late to the airport. Like to pick you up? And he talks about this story over and over again. Right, like to pick you up and he talks about this story over and over again.
Cleveland:Right, those things shapeless, but you have to face, you know, face, face your demons. Um, oh my God, there's a song by the suicide boy Uh, I need, yeah, suicide boys. At one of my that a friend of mine put me onto and it was like I need space for my like demons to breathe, right, and it's like you need to go back and you need to examine these demons that that are are in you. Right, that's you need. Or, as the name of the show is the devil you don't know, right, you can't find peace in the land of confusion If you are not at first in peace with yourself.
Lindsay:Yeah, but part of that comes from just knowing yourself and listening to your voice instead of the other people.
Cleveland:Right, right. It's so interesting because it makes me think of meditation, right, which I need to do, and I know I need to do.
Lindsay:But I want to actually ask you a question too, before you go into that. Do you think that some of your like discomfort in the way you're feeling lately is because it's so off base from what your family would do? Oh yeah, it's off base from what your family would do.
Cleveland:Oh yeah, it's off base from what most people listen. People, people who are from communities of color, not just black folk, don't want to go to therapy because there's just so much pain that we get that. That's there on earth.
Lindsay:When, especially in in in the case of generational trauma, it's just like you'll just you'll just keep pulling back layers and layers, and layers and layers and layers, and as a therapist, it's exhausting, right, when you have people who come and they just cry and they cry, and they cry and they cry, and it's the same stuff coming up every week and you realize how, like, how deep right the pain is and how deep the trauma is that it's. You know they don't talk about it one time and then they're like all right, all's good, let's move on, I'm fine. It constantly comes up in different places in your life, right. Every time you have an interaction with your child, every time you snap at someone, every time someone gives you some kind of feedback that might not be positive, right, it brings up all of the negatives.
Cleveland:The biggest aha moment that I have with most of my African-American clients that I work with is where I and I got this from an executive, a Cambodian woman, an executive that I worked with who who said you know what this discomfort you feel of living in this world is? Because you literally were not supposed to be here. And the system is set up. It was not set up for you and mine, it was set up for the enrichment of white men, and white men only, and no one else was supposed to be here. And a lot of the discomfort that you feel and a lot of the anguish that you feel and it goes back to what you said, lindsey, about you shouldn't be well adjusted in a toxic world is because this situation for most, for for 99.9 percent of us, and is and and this is not to put that this is all on on white men either because they're just as well.
Lindsay:The system was created that way, with them in mind.
Cleveland:Yeah right, I mean, but it was created for even. But it was even only created for one percent of them, because it was only created for rich white men of who who had, who had something, and so for ninety nine percent of everyone else. That's in a capitalist country today. This was not built for you. This was you know, Dave and I were joking about it last week that we're going to run for president and going to say you know, have you ever cursed in a long time? But we're going to say our campaign slogan is going to be ain't you tired of this shit?
Lindsay:We're not going to say what is that stuff? Right, it's. Whatever it is that you're tired of, yes, right, cause we all are tired of something different, right, right. And I mean that's, you know, that's a huge, huge thing. I agree with you 100 percent there. But what were you going to say earlier about meditation?
Cleveland:Oh, so meditation and then we have to move on.
Cleveland:This is going to be a nerd moment, but if you know the character, the Incredible Hulk right, bruce Banner and you know if, even if you only have a vague knowledge of him, you know the Hulk is, you know, you know Bruce becomes the Hulk is because he's angry.
Cleveland:Yep, there is an alternate version of the Hulk. That's a new, a newer version and like from another universe, where bruce learned the power of meditation and, instead of being this monstrous hulk who is controlled by his anger, that bruce, who calls himself the immortal, uh, has channeled that anger from the prime, from the 616 version of bruce banner, and is even more powerful because he meditates and he's calm when he fights and he and he channels that energy. And so you can take that strong, crazy hulk energy or whatever drives you, and if you, as my wife tries to get me to do, is just meditate on it, like how much more productive and creative if you could channel that fury into something focused. I've stopped asking you to meditate. Now You're going to do it, right, but do you agree if you could channel that fury into something focused?
Lindsay:Yes, because anger is a check engine light. There's always something deeper. It's the trigger Right and that's. I said that to somebody last week that I had just met, when they said they were talking to me about something and they said that they were so bothered by this and I was like I bet it's not the first time in your life you felt that way. And then they were like oh, and then you know, it's all about oh, well, no, I mean I grew up here and I had this and I had that. And it's like OK, ok, ok. And I mean you and I do it here too, right? I mean how many times, you know, how many times have I said to you I'm not your ex-wife? And then the other day I said to you something like hey, can I talk to you for a minute? And you went nuts.
Cleveland:And then you were like oh God, I keep forgetting that you're not my ex-wife and it's been transition just a little bit, because this is another part about seeking renewal and getting distraction and staying connected to. What's important is we're coming up on the holidays and unfortunately, the oh yeah, my caseload is increasing by the day.
Cleveland:And, unfortunately, around the holidays is when people decide to check in on their family and their friends and probably spend. They spend time with them, yeah, but probably doing things they should have been doing the whole year. Um, one of the things especially working in couples because you don't need to be connected to everybody in your family, but one of the things especially working with couples is I can always tell you that my couples that have the most amount of problems are the couples that spend the least amount of time getting to know each other. They don't go on dates, they don't go out, they don't check in. It's like. So I was like what was the last time you went on a date? Date, we're married. We're married.
Lindsay:We don't go anywhere you and I date all the time yeah yeah, should we segue into that embarrassing moment for the queen mom yesterday when she opened my birthday card from you? Oh yeah, you can tell what?
Cleveland:does it say that? And I had Tiffany and company right on.
Lindsay:I was like you had. Well, first of all, it's not even my birthday yet, and so I know what the gift is because, as I've told many of my clients, when they talk about their husbands giving bad gifts, I'm like I just tell my husband what I want, so he knows. And yeah, it's not a surprise, but at least I know I'm getting something that I like, right. So, and you do surprise me with a lot of things, like those cute coffee mugs last week and you know stuff like that. But so you know, I'd asked for this gift a year ago and, unbeknownst to me, you remembered, because a year has passed, and yesterday a whole bunch of UPS arrived and it was not addressed to me, and you're like, just open it. I don't know what it is, I didn't order anything because you forgot, and I opened it up and I just said I don't think I'm supposed to open this. So I left it on the table. And then you came and like put it in a little gift bag, and so we're gonna go away for my birthday week and we're gonna go up to the Catskills, to a little boutique hotel for the weekend and just, you know, spoil ourselves and you know, hang out and probably have a couple cocktails and relax and get a lot of sleep and whatever and um and other things.
Lindsay:So the queen mom is, has her friend over, uh, from camp and they're eating pizza at the table and she's like what's this? And I was like I don't know I'm at the table and she's like what's this? And I was like I don't know, I'm, I don't know. And she's like, well, who's it for? I was like I don't know and of course I knew, but it was for my birthday, so I was just ignoring that it was there. So she opens the card and what did you write on the card?
Cleveland:Uh, happy birthday. And now get ready for the sex. So romantic.
Lindsay:Yeah, so romantic. And so the poor kid is just like traumatized now and she said to her she was laughing. And then she said to her friend oh my God, I'm so sorry, are you okay? And he says, are you okay? That's your mom.
Lindsay:But the thing is is like you have to constantly date each other and you have to constantly check in with each other about how was your day, how do you feel, what's going on in your life. And those check ins and that dating are important because, like dating and going out in public is a neutral space, so it's a place where it's like safe to talk about things that might, you know kind of you know, make you know kind of more noise at home, for example, know kind of more noise at home, for example. But you have to spend time to each other, like with each other. Just because you got married and have a kid doesn't mean that you don't have a life together anymore, because eventually that kid is going to grow up and go away and I think a lot of people lose their connection with the most important person, right? I remind people all the time Well, when you got married, you got married because you love this person.
Lindsay:So, and if it was this way when you got married and you chose to marry them anyway, then you just need to leave now, right? If now you're realizing that you were like running away from something else and this isn't right for you, then just go. But don't hang on in this kind of painful manner. But otherwise, like you have to try, and I and I do, I quote you all the time in my sessions that marriage is tribulation in the flesh. Marriage is tribulation in the flesh because even our marriage and we love each other very much and I don't ever think that we'll get a divorce, right, but it's not always easy. Right, because you grew up in one kind of household and I grew up in another kind of household and we have vastly different personalities and I can keep my cool, but you know how to push my buttons, and when you push my buttons, then I lose it and I scream and then you're like oh well, there you go again.
Cleveland:Oh, even though I provoked you, I love you, I love you, I love you too Right, but it's.
Lindsay:but all of that to say that it's very important to continue to strengthen your relationship with your partner and to like let the little things go.
Cleveland:Yeah, because if the world is chaotic and it's a chaotic journey, don't you want to be on it with a partner who's on the same page?
Lindsay:Yeah, I mean, I hope so, because we got vacations planned through 2025.
Cleveland:So I hope you're not going anywhere, or else I'm going away alone, yeah, but you know, but it's like when you're dealing with a tumultuous world and I and I've I've told this to numerous people that I've worked with If, how is it? How is it if this one area in your life is already tumultuous and chaotic, and this is already tumultuous and chaotic, and the place that's supposed to be home is also tumultuous and chaotic, where do you get peace? So you and chaotic, where do you get peace? So you have to work on these relationships that you can, that you can manage right. And if you have a relationship and listen, clients do whatever they want to do, and I swear clients are like children, because it's like if you could, ah, and make them do it?
Lindsay:oh, because the things that they fight over are just so stupid. I hate to say that, but that's just so stupid.
Cleveland:Yeah, it's stupid, and it's like stuff that, but that's just so stupid.
Lindsay:Yeah, it's stupid and it's like stuff that's possibly easily solvable, but yeah, like I, mean people will come and fight about somebody leaving something on the counter or leaving a drawer open and it's like are you serious right now? Like shut the door to the room If you don't want someone to see the drawer open. I mean, my God, our room looks like a disaster right now Cause I'm organizing all of the laundry I've ever owned All of it from from the old house too.
Lindsay:Yes, but you know what? Every day I do a little bit more. But the thing is, is that like? It's just like people? It's like it's not. So why are you upset? You're not upset about a pile of laundry. You're not upset about a drawer being open. You're upset about something else. Yeah, yeah.
Cleveland:I mean, I say that all all the time to people. I'm like it's not about that. Yeah, I once asked a friend of mine hey, if you were going to only lie to your wife anyway, why did you marry her Right? And? But people do that.
Cleveland:When all the relationships, if you're going to lie to the to this intimate person that you're with, or if you're going to disrupt the household and you're with, what, then why are you bringing more tribulation to yourself? You know, the apostle Paul is clear in that scripture. He says and this is not a Christian podcast Uh, we just don't curse anymore, but it was so much fun to curse. Um, he says hey, life would be a lot easier if you were just like me, single, right Cause you could get stuff done. Uh, we were joking about it at dinner the other night, Like, would you rather have a robot surgeon or a human surgeon? That just had an argument with his wife on your working on your knee Right? Marriage is hard, these things are hard, and you have to be willing to do the hard work. Willing to do the hard work.
Cleveland:I think at the end of the day, if the world is a chaotic place, you are going to just be bringing yourself more chaos and, as I was saying, like we've had hundreds of clients that, at the end of the day, hey, they choose chaos. I guess you know that's, but that's what worked for them. It's not for me to change that. It's not. As I once said in the presentation, I have to be in the room with the client. The client does not have to be in the room with me, it's, it's, it's. I'm helping them understand their story and their narrative. And if they ultimately choose something that I would not choose for myself, hey, if I helped you get to an understanding of it, that's great. But we also need to take that into a greater context, not only in society, but in our relationships.
Lindsay:Because it's going to happen with everybody that you interact with Right Right, even your best friends. You don't agree with everything on Right Right, and so people are always going to have different viewpoints, but it's about not talking about certain things if they're triggering Right Right or, you know, strengthening the bonds that you have. I agree.
Cleveland:So I want to just move on because we're getting a little bit to time A vision for the new year.
Lindsay:It's almost the holidays, it's Thanksgiving, oh, and then we're going to Florida for our annual Christmas trip to Naples, florida, that's going to be good.
Cleveland:It's going to be a good time.
Lindsay:I know, watch, this year it's going to be super warm because we didn't rent a house with a pool. Last two years we got a house with a pool and it was freezing, remember we couldn't use it. And now this year we said, okay, we're gonna pay less because those houses with pools are a fortune. We're gonna pay for a house that doesn't have a pool and it was really a great deal and I bet you it's gonna be warm now and remember we went to the uh everglades and none of the alligators were out, because it was so cold.
Lindsay:It was so cold. That was fun, though, wasn't it that airboat ride? It was a nice air, it was a nice ride. Um, but what a great place. Let's just, you know, diverge for a minute naples, florida. What a great place right I mean great place, so many great restaurants and bars and things to do, and it's so clean and beautiful. And then there's that whole neighborhood that has all the christmas lights, where every year you just appease me and sit in hours of traffic just so I could look at everyone's beautiful decorations.
Cleveland:I guess we're going to be doing that.
Lindsay:Totally doing that because the kids are coming this year. Totally doing that. Oh sorry, you don't have to come. If you don't, I'm going to come. Yeah, I know you are because you're my driver. That's how we met.
Cleveland:That's how you met. I know you don't like to high five, but we said it at the same time Inside, inside joke, but yeah. But I think, um, with the holidays coming, I think it's time to and people should be reflecting on moving forward. I think, I think you should reflect on moving forward all year. Well, and you can't go back.
Lindsay:You can't, you cannot, right, I mean, that's the whole thing is that you cannot go back and change what happened in the past. So the only way to go is forward or you can stay stuck, but I tell my clients to do this all the time. If you just want to stay on the straight and narrow, I'm not the therapist for you. Right, I said you either want to climb up the cliff and jump off or you want to climb all the way down the mountain and try something new. But either way, if you're going to stay in the status quo, I'm not the person to work with you, because I don't do the status quo.
Cleveland:Right, yeah, I would rather. When I was in practicum, my instructor said if he did not have a session where a client did not leave angry with him, that he did not have a good session with that client. And I recently had an experience that was very uncomfortable with me and I'm not, I won't get into it.
Lindsay:I remember you came to bed that night and you woke me up because I was. I always fall asleep before you have clients because you have clients late and I don't. But I remember that when you said to me that you came to bed and you were like I'm just so upset that he was so upset. I made my client really angry today and I just don't know what to do.
Cleveland:Yeah, but it was the right thing when I went back and talked to.
Lindsay:Well, you have to. You know you have to push people and challenge people. Right, because here's the thing, right, if we don't challenge people, then everybody would just be walking around in the status quo, thinking that their way was the only way. And I always tell people there's more than one solution to a problem.
Cleveland:Yeah, yeah.
Lindsay:Yeah.
Cleveland:Yeah, but yeah, and and I think we have to become comfortable in relationships, like I had to become comfortable with that Sometimes you're helping somebody through conflict. Yeah, conflict is not necessarily the end of the world and it's okay to have disagreements. Right, all husbands and wives have disagreements. I was talking to one of my dear friends a couple of weeks ago and he's like yeah, it's been a week of disagreements, but we still love each other and I think we all do that right. Should a week of disagreements become a month of disagreements, which becomes years of disagreements, which becomes decades of disagreements? No, but we all have these periods in our relationships that even the strongest married couples if you ever meet a married couple that said they ain't never arguing their lives, they some liars, that they just don't talk when they go home because well, well, they're just, they just, or they sit there and they just live according to what the other person wants, and then they're just kind of unhappy.
Lindsay:Yeah, right, at a deeper level, yeah yeah so all right, and before we are we about to wrap up, we're about to wrap. Oh so let's also say how excited we are for our friends, kristen and sam, who adopted their baby. Oh my god, I can't wait to meet the baby. Yeah, it's gonna be good, I know it's gonna be good, oh they waited a long time for their baby.
Cleveland:They waited so long for their baby. We're very excited for them.
Lindsay:So exciting, yeah, but I think um, which reminds me I have to reply to her shower, which is over invitation.
Cleveland:Is sitting right there here, hand me that I think, as we close, the main idea is, I think, in everyone, everybody who spoke at that Star Trek convention and I'll close with this last piece, gates McFadden, who played Dr Beverly Crusher, someone from the audience, axta, who was not me, axta McFadden uh, about a friend who does not like Star Trek because they do not believe that that is the possible future, that humans will never get to a point that they will.
Cleveland:Uh, as Spock would say, the needs of the, of the many, outweigh the needs of the few or the one, because we live in an American world where the needs of the few or the one outweigh the needs of the many. But, that being said, it's just an interesting place that we live in and an interesting time that we live in. An interesting place that we live in and an interesting time that we live in. And so there is, as Spock would say, a clear lack of empathy in this world, where we all need to work together to, as Gatesmith Fadden was saying, is to be role models to each other. That that future is possible if we take, as Todd Stanchwick said in his story, if we take the time to listen and try to understand each other. And you know and that was McFadden's- answer.
Lindsay:I think you should try to respect people. Like I said earlier not understand, because we're not ever going to understand why people do things. Respect, respect, respect is better, respect is better. I respect your choice. I don't agree with it.
Cleveland:I don't need to understand it, but I respect it I think that's a better way to put it is to respect each, everyone's autonomy before the AI replaces us all. It's coming. Optimus is coming, baby, as soon as that migrant is gone. Optimus is coming for your job as soon as that migrant is gone. Optimist is coming for your job, uh, but anyway, not to get political, um, because, at the end of the day, nobody can save us but ourselves, and I think that is the important lesson. Isn't that the truth? No matter what party you belong to, no one can save you but yourself, right? No one can save you but yourself, uh. But that being said, this has been another episode of the devil. You don't know. This has been cle, been Cleveland and Lindsay and we will see you next time.
Cleveland:Thank you.
