The Devil You Don’t Know
In The Devil You Don’t Know, Lindsay, Cleveland, and their guests discuss personal growth and development by taking chances and getting out of your comfort zone. Topics range from whimsical to serious and everything in between but are always relevant to growth and development.
The Devil You Don’t Know
The Work Happens Between the Sessions: Taking Ownership of Your Healing Journey
What if you could take control of your healing journey and transform your life beyond therapy sessions? Join us as we uncover the often overlooked aspects of personal growth, inspired by the biblical verse Philippians 2:12. Through engaging stories—including a humorous mishap with an abandoned kitten named Arugula—we illustrate the unpredictable nature of life and the significance of perseverance and responsibility. We'll discuss why some individuals hesitate to embrace therapy, often due to the discomfort of change, and highlight the necessity of consistent effort for meaningful progress.
Discover the common pitfalls couples face in therapy and the importance of communication and mutual respect to cultivate healthier relationships. By drawing parallels between therapists and gym spotters, we explore how therapists provide support rather than solutions, underscoring the need for active participation and personal responsibility. With practical advice on proactive therapy, we emphasize the value of seeking help before reaching a crisis point and the transformative journey toward emotional resilience and self-awareness.
Please email us at Gettoknowthedevil@gmail.com
This is Cleveland.
Lindsay Oakes:This is Lindsay.
Cleveland Oakes:And this is another episode of the Devil. You Don't Know, lindsay, what are we going to be talking about this week?
Lindsay Oakes:The work happens between the sessions, taking ownership of your healing journey.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, I like that one. What made you come up with this idea for this episode?
Lindsay Oakes:I once had a client say to me that her sister was doing really well in therapy and therapy didn't work for her and I suggested that maybe she wasn't doing the work between the sessions.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, that's interesting, right. So in this episode we off, we explore the often overlooked truth about therapy is that the work really happens outside the sessions. I'm a churchgoer when I'm not cursing and drinking my bourbon and my whiskey, and I drew inspiration from this one from Philippians 2.12, which urges believers to work out their own salvation with intention and with reverence, and we're going to parallel that idea today. Go ahead.
Lindsay Oakes:Yeah, and first I wanted to talk about what a weird week we've had. Do you ever wonder if, like we're the only people that all this weird stuff ever happens?
Cleveland Oakes:I think weird stuff happens to everybody. But I think, but I think we are also, then maybe you know what a client, you know what. Let me take it back because a client of mine asked me a couple of weeks ago. He was like, can you tell me Cleveland when? Cause he was complaining about how lonely he was and how bored he was and and I was like man, you know, talk to me about that. And then he was like you live with people. When is the last time you've actually been bored? And I was like oh yeah, that's right.
Lindsay Oakes:Yeah, we've had a really crazy week. So first the queen mom, the her friend in the carpool, was going away and there was no mention of this until like an hour before it happened. But they had taken in an abandoned stray kitten and needed to leave it somewhere while they went on vacation the very next morning, the very next morning. So they needed to bring it somewhere while they went on vacation the very next morning, the very next morning. So they needed to bring it over in an hour in an hour and so they show up with this kitten that could fit in the palm of your hand.
Lindsay Oakes:They have a tylenol syringe with, like some kitty formula, no litter box. They bring the cat in a little crate and they just drop it off. So we have no litter. They're telling you they're concerned. It hasn't gone to the bathroom. You just have to feed it a little syringe. That poor kitten was just crying. Oh no, crying and crying, and oh. So it's been interesting. You've been to the vet with this kitten who had an eye infection.
Cleveland Oakes:Had an eye infection. Thank God he had no worms. I went and bought him a bottle. I bought him a litter box, a litter box. When it comes time, the Monday, to return him, nobody is going to want to leave each other. I don't think you want him to go. Oh he's so cute.
Lindsay Oakes:I don't think he wants to go.
Cleveland Oakes:I call him Arugula yeah, arugula, yeah, arugula. The cat arugula oaks um. But I don't think he wants to go.
Lindsay Oakes:I don't think you want him to go. No, he's so cute, but he's a good guy and right now I think he's playing in the kitty playpen that we have for him, so, but we really don't need another cat, yeah, well, it makes me well the other two, the other pets are very furious oh, none of them are interacting with us at all. They're all giving, giving us the side. Yeah, they're very mad.
Cleveland Oakes:The dogs are mad, the other three cats are mad. It's just so funny.
Lindsay Oakes:The funny thing is he just sleeps in this little kitty playpen all day. Most of the time he wanders around a little and he plays in there, and then that's it.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, he's not even bothering anybody, but Betty's been in the basement like all week and only comes up to eat. She won't come up yet and veronica won't even come near me unless the kitty is downstairs and I'm upstairs and then the only person and I call cats and my pets people because they are people the only person who is not upset is ginger, who just comes and goes as she pleases.
Cleveland Oakes:She's like oh she's the boss of the house. She's like oh, there's another person in here, there's another, another animal, there's another animal. I guess that makes sense, whatever right, and then it was.
Lindsay Oakes:Was it tuesday night into wednesday morning when I got the phone call and text at 2 am from the college drop-in? From the college drop-in. So which who likes to be woken up by their kid who lives away from home in the middle of the night? Yes, unnerving several states away so it's the second time now that his dorm room ceiling fell on him while he was sleeping at the college that costs over eighty thousand dollars a year so.
Lindsay Oakes:So this time I decided to get involved because the last time he said he would handle it and he supposedly he did. And then this time I was like I'm gonna get involved. He's like, don't call them. Don't call them because I think he was afraid of what I might do or say. And so I ended up calling the school and there's no option for housing. So I said to them you know, I called again and then I got the off-campus housing and that gentleman said housing on campus is only available via email. And I was like that's not acceptable. No, we've all been up since two in the morning. The kid's ceiling is all over the room, he's been washing laundry since two and so and water's dripping into a garbage can next to the bed and he lives in a single room. So there's no real room for readjusting the furniture unless you move furniture out into the hallway, right? So I eventually I just decided I would call admissions and try to get a person on the line, and then they were able to get me to facilities and the facilities person said well, hvac is coming out and you could still email housing. So I email housing and the response is thanks for emailing housing. We'll get back to you in two business days. I was like this is not acceptable, the poor kid. So I did raise enough hell that day that when I got in from work I was utterly exhausted from being up since 2 am. But I got a very nice email from them, apologizing profusely. They had the room professionally cleaned, they fixed the HVAC, supposedly, and they would be repairing the ceiling once everything dried out.
Lindsay Oakes:So the next day comes and he comes back from class and the ceiling is all wet again and it's dripping. And now he's really upset. So I said I'm going to give them another call. And he's like don't call, don't call, cause I think he was afraid again at what I was going to say. So he then I said all right, well, let me just do a few things and then I'll call. So he's. He says they come to his. Let me just do a few things and then I'll call. So he's. He says they come to his room and he sends me a picture. They hooked all these tubes up to the leak and they're draining them in a garbage can in his room. So like the poor kid can never relax, he's never can be like hanging out in the room. They're knocking on the door, they're emptying the bucket, waters coming in. And finally I called yesterday and I said to the woman in facilities this is just. I said Tara, do you know how much this school costs To which?
Lindsay Oakes:she said nothing and I said well, for that amount of money that it does cost, this is just unacceptable, unacceptable. So at that point she said, oh, let me just transfer you directly to housing. Amazing, you could get them on the phone like that. So housing, of course you know profusely apologized and then did admit that they had a new hvac system installed and they're having this issue in every room in that dorm and that whole like I guess whatever's on that hvac line, and so they had a couple of options for him to move. Yeah, okay, one was an emergency move which you would move and then move back when it's done, so then he'd essentially move twice. We weren't doing that. The second one was he could go to something called the 24-7 quiet hall, during like which time you literally can never talk in the hallways, you cannot have company, you can't play music, you can't be on a video game on headphones, nothing can be heard in the hallway outside of your room 24 hours a day. That's crazy. I've never even heard of that.
Cleveland Oakes:It's got to be for all the introverted people.
Lindsay Oakes:But I mean, I've heard of it like they have the ones that have the like longer periods of quiet time, but I've never heard of a 24-7 quiet hall. So then the only other option remaining was a move into the off-campus housing that has an agreement with the university. So I mean, what do you think the kid's going to take? He's going to take the off-campus.
Lindsay Oakes:So now this kid is living large in a one-bedroom apartment. It's there's a couple other bedrooms scattered, but you basically have a full bedroom in a shared apartment with a full bathroom. Laundry is in there and then he went downstairs in there. Today there's a whole living room. There's a kitchen with two stoves, two refrigerators, fully equipped air fryers, pots and pans. This kid was like. This leak was the best thing that ever happened to me.
Cleveland Oakes:You know as much grief as I give the folks that I used to work for. I will tell you that, despite certain things, we did take, as a team, pride in the work that we did. And the first thing when I came into that room in the summertime, I told them this too I was like that ceiling is messed up. I remember that. You know, listen, I had a boss who asked why garbage? Why there was garbage in the garbage can, and to some extent I do understand the level of neurosis that that person had, because when you are paying a certain amount of money to your point, maybe there shouldn't be garbage in the garden, there definitely shouldn't be brown stains on the ceiling, and water dripping in and ceiling panels falling out?
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, because, as a facility, any facilities person will tell you as soon as you go to see if you see a ceiling. That's a ceiling that is miscolored. That means that you have water in the ceiling, and so that's not even. As soon as I saw that room when we them in in August, I was like this is going to be a problem. And I turned out to be a problem. But now he's living large on off campus.
Lindsay Oakes:Uh, what else? Well, and then the funniest thing was, the housing person said, well, and you know, like you know, we won't, we won't charge you any extra, but this housing is more expensive. I was like, yeah, I wasn't expecting you to charge me any extra, because this was not like it was our choice.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, it's not like we went up in there and busted up the ceiling and was like hey put this inferior HVAC. And not only that, but shouldn't your facilities?
Lindsay Oakes:people be doing walkthroughs, like you know, before people move in Well, especially when you've just put in some new HVAC. You know, I'm just saying maybe you should make sure it works first. So those are the. You know, that was the queen mom, and then that was the college drop in, and then we got the oldest one who got a summons from transit.
Cleveland Oakes:No, he was framed. He was framed.
Lindsay Oakes:Well, right, that's what he told me, tom Huckleberry a ticket on the subway. Did something happen in the city? No, and I said well, they sent a summons in the mail to us for you and it says you didn't appear and that you got a fine on the subway. Oh, it must be fraud, someone's frauding me. I was like that's amazing. So they must have a copy of your ID and know where you live. And so when the police came the transit police to give you the summons, they just handed over your ID.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, definitely your ID.
Lindsay Oakes:So what a weird week we've had.
Cleveland Oakes:Such a strange week, such a strange, strange time in the world. If you're looking out at world events, I want you to remember what Dr Covey says is the circle of influence, the circle of concern. To remember what Dr Covey says is the circle of influence, the circle of concern. And you know what I think we do. Probably, around election time, we probably do need to do an episode dedicated to world events, but I want you guys to remember that it's really the only things that you should be worried about are the things that you can actually influence. You can't influence, you can't the things that you're concerned about. The war in Gaza, the war in Ukraine, the election, the inflation, global warming, climate chaos those are things that you can be concerned about. There's very, very, very little that you can do about those things, and I would encourage you, in these crazy, crazy times that we live in, speaking of doing the work between the sessions is to only be worried about the things that you can actually influence.
Lindsay Oakes:A hundred percent I agree with you.
Cleveland Oakes:So, with that being said, are you ready to jump?
Lindsay Oakes:Let's just jump in.
Cleveland Oakes:You're ready to jump in there. So getting back to this idea of taking ownership of your own healing journey while a counselor can offer guidance and tools, it is up to the individual to take ownership of their growth and healing. What would? Dr Gabor Mate, I know you're taking compassionate inquiry.
Lindsay Oakes:You're in control of your own life. You get to choose your story. You get to choose your story. You get to decide. Just because you've had past experiences that are negative, you cannot let those impact you today, and if you do, it's your own fault.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, yeah. Just like fitness, emotional health requires work between the gym sessions we can think about. One of one of my favorite sayings is abs are made in the kitchen. And when somebody says this, and listen, lindsey, you have a degree in nutrition. You have a degree in nutrition. You studied nutrition a little bit, but what does that saying mean abs are made in the kitchen. As somebody who's trying very hard to help me lower my blood pressure and cholesterol, what does that mean?
Lindsay Oakes:abs are made in the kitchen I mean mean you make better choices, you look better.
Cleveland Oakes:Well, yeah, but your fitness is not just going to the gym. I mean, most of it is diet. Yeah, because if I go to the gym and then come home and eat two pounds of cake, a slide of ham, oil, a whole bunch of oil, salt, pepper, you know, am I really fit?
Lindsay Oakes:Well, I mean you know you went to the doctor and had high blood pressure and high cholesterol, because even though you are pretty fit, you just make poor choices because abs are made in the kitchen, right?
Cleveland Oakes:And so, using me as an example, if you go to therapy and I've lost 50 pounds I used to be 250 pounds, I lost over 50 pounds, I've lost 60 pounds. At this point I'm down to 190 pounds. And you know I still make some bad choices, right? But those Just love the vegan fish Felix. Yeah, but those bad choices are on me. Abs are made in the kitchen, using that as an example. If you go to therapy and you make bad choices, lindsay, whose fault is that? It's?
Lindsay Oakes:your own choice.
Cleveland Oakes:It's your own choice. It's your own choice. I want to talk about Philippians 2.12 in the context of healings. Philippians 2.12 says work out your own salvation. And then, as a colleague of mine reminded me as I was talking about it in class one day and she was like wow, that's an awesome scripture to quote to your clients, but said do you remember the back half? And the back half of that says with fear and trembling so what does that mean to you? What does that scripture mean to you in the context of working out your own salvation?
Lindsay Oakes:Well, in order to get where you want to go, you're going to have to conquer the fears, and it's not going to be easy, right, but if you want to get away from that status quo, you have to do the hard work, you have to make the choices that are a little bit fearful and difficult to make, and you have to be willing to really persevere in that. To get to the other side, yeah.
Cleveland Oakes:One of the things that we talk about and I've talked about it with my supervisor, we've talked about it in grad school is clients who just ghost you and disappear. And why do you think it is? And these would be clients that you thought you were doing good work with, right? My own supervisor said to me the other day that he had a young man that he was working with, that they were, they had like a like a year of good sessions. The guy took notes, the guy was making progress, they had this. Really. They had this ground, this breakthrough moment, and it was like they got to where they needed to go and then the guy disappeared. And so what do you think?
Lindsay Oakes:Well, I think what happens is I always say something to you. Right Is, once you see it, you can't unsee it, right? So it is. It is challenging when you see it and sometimes it can be really hard for people to come back and then work through that, because it's easier to pretend that everything is fine.
Cleveland Oakes:Right. And I think sometimes if people get to a point where, in the example I use especially my supervisor, um is Bruce Banner has been the Hulk for going on 60 years now, right, and and it gets to a point where he is like, ah, maybe this person likes to be the Hulk, and I think what happens is that people get to a point where they don't want to do the work between the sessions, like they don't want to change, and they realize like either I'm going to change or I'm going to stay stuck, and I really think one of the reasons why people don't do the work between the sessions is because they they're fine with staying stuck. What is because it's really fine with staying stuck? Um? What is because it's?
Lindsay Oakes:really painful to get unstuck, and I mean a perfect example of is that of that is that I've been doing this training with gabor mate. In february it'll be a year, the training will be up, and I really had a challenging time in the beginning. Remember, I would listen to these modules and you'd come home and find me crying you. You'd be like what is wrong, and I'd be like I didn't have anyone to talk to Right, because it was like who did you talk to Right? What did you do? What does it remind you of? And so when you start to look at that stuff, it's really hard to look at and so it's easier to just pretend it didn't happen. But the problem is is then you're kind of missing out on so much fulfillment in your life. So what is?
Cleveland Oakes:a common. What is so thinking about what we just talked about? What would you say is a common misunderstanding about therapy?
Lindsay Oakes:Well, I think people, people want to come to therapy and just vent, right, it's like kind of just a place to talk. And I think that a misunderstanding is. And people don't like therapy because they feel like, oh, I just come and they talk about the same things every week and I'm just going to kind of re, keep reliving things and that's a good a, not a like a, not a great therapist. They do that. Right, I've left a therapist because she kept bringing up the same thing all the time and I was like I's not going to change. And if it's not going to change, why are we spending time on it, Right? Um, and I think also, people come to therapy they want validation for their story and the story is not valid anymore If it happened in the past.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, yeah, um, a lot of times, and I was even listening to the Jordan Harbinger show today and him and Gabrielle Mizrahi, his co-host, we're talking about. Sometimes people don't want to change their narrative, right, you know, you have to want to change your narrative and I think what happens?
Lindsay Oakes:and be willing to do the work and do the work that it takes.
Cleveland Oakes:And I think what happens, especially when a client goes to you, is that they realize like, oh snap, I really don't want to change the narrative. And I've had that argument with clients that were like, well, no, this is just who I am and and I'm not going to you know, this is just who I am. And then I'm like so what are we here for? Right, absolutely, if this is what you believe and you believe this narrative and you believe the story about yourself, then what are we here for?
Lindsay Oakes:Right, and the thing is is is it's okay to be there? You can come out on the other side, right? And sometimes it does take a lot of work, and that's the thing I notice is I'll see clients for a really, really long time. Some people don't unpack things quickly, right, and that's fine, right, and so it's like that. I think also, people want a quick fix. They want to come to therapy and just be told that they're right.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, but as I've told people, like I told one person, it took you 45 years to get to a point where you realize that you had a problem?
Lindsay Oakes:Yep, absolutely. I tell people that too. And then you can't undo 45 years of something in two weeks.
Cleveland Oakes:Right, right, it reminds me of this commercial I once saw, where there's an overweight guy and he's in the gym and he, he go runs. The commercial starts off, the guy's weighing himself on the on a scale. He go, runs on a treadmill for 30 seconds and then comes back to the scale to weigh himself again. Has his weight changed? No, but then the commercial ends where he's like, oh, the gym is not working. So what would you say? I'm going to use a really good example. I'm going to use a personal story as an example and I'm going to thank David Sazlov and the good people at Discovery Network for this story that I'm going to tell Darcy Silva. For those of you who, who, who, know anything about the 90 day fiance universe, do you remember that episode? I think it was when, before, it was the Darcy and Stacy, or it might've been episode of Darcy and Stacy, but I think it was an episode of 90 day fiance, where she designed where she goes to therapy for one session.
Lindsay Oakes:One session.
Cleveland Oakes:And what did she say after that one session?
Lindsay Oakes:she worked on her stuff. That she worked and, believe me, if you've ever seen her, you know she has a whole hell of a lot more stuff to work on.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, darcy, darcy silva, if you're listening, we'd like to have you on the show no, we wouldn't, you might yeah, well, she'd be interesting to talk to.
Cleveland Oakes:Yes, you can't work anything out after one session, right? Right, you know I've sat with folks and like, and let's think about it logically, for many of you guys that are having problems, these are problems that started in. Anybody wouldn't just be Gabor Mate, it would be Fritz Perls, it would be Albert Ellis, it would be, you know, carl Rogers. They would definitely tell you that many of your problems started in childhood.
Lindsay Oakes:A hundred percent. I always say that. I tell people all the time you did not get to this point in your life and have the patterns that you have, because they are not a result of something that happened to you or an experience that you have had.
Cleveland Oakes:And if something happened to you in childhood and you are now 25, 35, 45, 55. You know I have colleagues that, have people that I have a colleague that was talking, that was talking that we were doing a consultation and she was talking about a client who's in his 70s and this guy was still talking about high school things, you know things, opportunities that he missed in high school, stuff that happened over 60 years ago. If you have a lifetime of trauma and I want you guys to understand a lifetime of trauma can you instantly heal it without doing any work between a session?
Lindsay Oakes:No, because I have been doing so much work and I'm still not healed. And I tell all of my clients that I am not healed, I'm still working on myself.
Cleveland Oakes:So, as somebody who's taking compassionate inquiry, who has the role, who is responsible for your healing.
Lindsay Oakes:You are. You are responsible for your healing. You get to make decisions. You have to take control of your own life. You cannot let people take control of your own life.
Cleveland Oakes:You cannot let people take control of it for you, or you fall back into the same patterns yeah, in fact, one of the things that dr monte talks about is validating, and he's and we've mentioned it before is is therapists who validate and do not challenge clients stories, right so when you validate the story because people want their story to be validated right, and I think, especially for me I see this.
Lindsay Oakes:It's very evident when you work with couples, because the one always wants to be right, and that's a huge thing that comes up with couples is there's always one person who wants to be right. I have one couple who's done so much work that they are not like that and it's actually so refreshing to see them because they support you. I mean, they don't even really need to come anymore, but they just come all the time. I think now they just like to come and just shoot the breeze, yeah, and, and, and you know, and that's fine, right, because I get paid for it and they know that and they want to be there, so they come. But I think the big thing is that you know you want to.
Lindsay Oakes:People come to therapy and they want to sit there and they want to vent, and then when you want to vent and you vent all the time but you don't do any work, your, your story is not valid. The thing that happened to you, right? Like my client who likes to rehash the events, remember how many, how he counts? I think I've told you. He counts all the events in the arguments they've had, which and after which they really shouldn't have got married because of this number of things that have happened. And I sit there and I think why are we like looking backwards? Right, that story is not valid anymore.
Lindsay Oakes:That was eight years ago. Eight years ago. You remember things from eight years ago? No, that story. Your emotions are valid. Your patterns of not feeling heard or supported or feeling unloved as a child those emotions and experiences are very valid. The story is not valid anymore. Just because you had somebody like a parent abandon you, it doesn't mean that your partner is going to abandon you, right? Just because people bullied you, it doesn't mean your partner is going to bully you. Your story is not valid. Create a new story with your new experiences.
Cleveland Oakes:Right and if and if you're like me, I'm going to tell you one of the things that drives me crazy with certain couples not all my couples.
Lindsay Oakes:not helpful for couples to not talk about things between sessions well, first of all, it means they've been holding on to it for a week, right, and it's also it's they're rehashing it. It's in those moments where you need to stop, process and communicate, and this is actually what goes wrong in a lot of relationships is that there is no communication, right, and that, and that starts from the very beginning of probably 99% of relationships. And then, as time goes on, you move in together, you notice people's habits, you have kids together and there's two different parenting styles, and then it just feels so much worse.
Cleveland Oakes:And so one of the things that I compare and I like to compare both physical and mental health and make the analogies, make the analogies is sometimes in the gym If you're going to lift a heavy weight. Do you know what a spotter is Lindsay?
Lindsay Oakes:I'm assuming it's the person that makes sure you don't drop the weight on yourself, right?
Cleveland Oakes:And right. And so us, as therapists, we're just spotters. We are not there, and a spotter is only there as a person that guides you through it, right? So if you're lifting 500 pounds, the spotter is just there to to grab it in case you drop it. Therapists, we are spotters, we are a support system, but we are not and I want to make this clear to anybody who's in the audience, because I've had clients well, you're supposed to be the person that's solving this. No, it's not. I got a hundred of my own problems, I got 99 of my own problems and you ain't one.
Lindsay Oakes:You have to solve your own problems, and I've said this a thousand times and I say it to every single one of my clients, I say it to you and I say it to the kids. It is nothing that I did that's upsetting you and it's something that's bothering you. So if you want to come and talk to me about it, come on. I'm here, but you cannot take it out on me. I won't allow that.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, because only thing that we're here for is we are here to support you. If you have a support system, they are there to support you, but at the end of the day, the person that has to affect the change is yourself.
Lindsay Oakes:Ask for what you need, especially in a relationship. Ask for what you need If you're going to come to couples therapy and constantly complain about something your partner does. Your partner's not a mind reader. They are not a mind reader. You need to tell them, because I have this couple that comes in all the time and you know it's like as soon as something good happens, they have to find a reason to fight and it's like who wants that level of aggravation? Just take responsibility for what's going on within you and, you know, be willing to say, hey, okay, I have to put this aside and, you know, allow my partner to change.
Cleveland Oakes:So in this next segment, I want to throw out some myths, um at you, um, and you've been doing this a little longer than me, so I want to get your idea on these myths. And then you tell me what the reality of the situation is, and then you tell me what the practical strategy is. So the myth of the situation is, and then you tell me what the practical strategy is. So the myth attending therapy sessions alone is enough.
Lindsay Oakes:No, that's only a little part of it. Right, that is. I come, I bring my issues to somebody else, and then I start to look at what my role and responsibility are for those problems, and then I take action.
Cleveland Oakes:Okay, what's a practical strategy that a person should should do to?
Lindsay Oakes:I think it depends on the situation right Communication skills. I help clients a lot with kind of directing back at themselves, not to say, oh, you did this and you did this, but you know what? When this happens, this is how I feel. How can we communicate differently? Uh, maybe having a less activated nervous system by exercising, taking a run, a walk, lifting weights, meditating, breathing, just going off and being quiet by yourself, whatever it takes. But it's like figure out what keeps you calm, because if you are calmer you will communicate in a more effective way.
Cleveland Oakes:And if your therapist gives you homework, should you blow it off or should you do it?
Lindsay Oakes:Well, no, you shouldn't blow it off, of course.
Cleveland Oakes:Because that's where the growth happens, right, like you read a book. Or a therapist. You know, and I as a therapist, I never assigned too much homework, but I'll ask one of the homeworks that I'll assign at the end of a session, because when I first started it over a year ago, it used to always get on me because and it was right I wasn't respectful of my own time and I would often go over because I would want to like fix everything in that one session. But no, that's what the sessions are for.
Lindsay Oakes:But a good therapist won't let you just come and vent and do that Right. And that's the point when I was working in a practice and I was under supervision before I moved away from there, my therapist my supervisor, who was a therapist went on a maternity leave and she left me a bunch of her clients that she'd been seeing for like five and seven years and I thought like this is dreadfully boring and none of them really wanted to or knew how to do the work because they did not have a set of tools and they just wanted to come. And I would joke, actually, with a colleague that like there was one that talked about my anxiety, my depression, my mental health issues and it was to the point where it's like I started tallying it and then I was like I can't even see this client anymore because I it was almost comical to me because it's like sure, I mean, if you want to just live in that place all the time and never make a choice and never do anything, I mean it's like either jump off the diving board or get out of the pool, like you know, whatever it is, go do what you have to do, but like stop it. Like stop it Cause you know you're going to be the victim for as long as you want to be the victim yourself, as long as you allow yourself to be the victim.
Lindsay Oakes:And you know, I think that was the case with every client that I took for her. And there was one client that was like, oh wow, I never thought of things this way. And then when my supervisor came back from maternity leave and I left the practice, that client quit. Wow, and that client needed a new therapist. Yeah, right, and I mean, that's essentially what it is is just, you can't just go invent to people. You have to take accountability.
Cleveland Oakes:Right. One of our friends who has been doing this for a long time often tells us that the best way to work with your client is to listen to the goals that come out of their mouth. Right and and. As part of that, when I assign homework instead of trying to solve everything in one session and my clients have told me like they really appreciate that I do this now is you know how they have the doorknob, all the doorknob comment, the doorknob comment. I'll give you a doorknob question right that I want you to think about over the course of a set, over the course of between now and then, and I will ask a very provocative question and I will just be like don't, don't, don't give me the answer now. When I see you again next week, let's talk about it Think when I see you again next week, let's talk about it, yeah, think about it in between, right, right, okay.
Cleveland Oakes:Here's myth number two a therapist a good therapist is going to fix all of your problems. Why is that? Well, the reality, it's, it's the reality. Oh yeah, oh, I see, okay, sorry, yeah, so that's so myth number two a good therapist.
Lindsay Oakes:No, you got to solve your own problems. I already said that. Okay, solve your own problems.
Cleveland Oakes:So instead of working, expecting immediate solutions, you have to work on developing coping strategies or building resilience. Here's one that I know is a pet peeve of yours is therapy is only for crisis.
Lindsay Oakes:I always say a lot of people wait until they hit rock bottom to come to therapy, because they don't think they need it and they don't want to look at their stuff, and so their partner tells them all along, right.
Lindsay Oakes:A perfect example is a client that I've had for a long time and I actually really, really enjoy working with him, and I've talked about him before and he has, you know, he basically had a lot of anger issues DUI a lot of problems with the law, and he's living with his girlfriend and she kept telling him your anger is impacting us, it's impacting my daughter, it's impacting my mother, it's impacting our living situation. This is not healthy whatever. And you know, when he came to therapy, she kicked him out. She kicked him out, said you cannot live here anymore with us and if you want this relationship to work, you need to go and heal yourself. And the dude came to therapy with his tail between his legs. And he came to therapy because he got kicked out, not because he thought like, oh, I have issues I need to work out, but he was just like I gotta go to therapy so I can get back in that house.
Cleveland Oakes:Why is it foolish to wait until you're in crisis to get help?
Lindsay Oakes:Well, because now you've made things so much more difficult for yourself. Yeah, right, I mean, imagine if the first time and I mean I'll, you know my ex-husband remember, I think? I told you he lied and said he was going to therapy, and then, when the insurance statements would come, I was like there's no therapy here, and it just turned out he was staying late at work to say that he went to therapy or he'd go out in the city and then come home. And then when I found out, he was like, oh, I'll go now. But by then I was like not too late, you're a liar. You're a liar. I can't trust you. No, you know. So you know. That's the thing is, you have to as soon as things happen, you have to be able but a big piece of it is being able to take accountability Right.
Lindsay Oakes:And I think, with this client that I was speaking about, one of the wonderful things is that he's able to now. First of all, he has not had an angry outburst like since he started therapy. Yes, he will have an argument with his girlfriend. She's pregnant now. They're moving back in together. Right, he'll have an argument. He will get agitated, but you know where he goes when he's agitated. Now To me. He called me this week. He said hey, they had had a really like a big emergency and he couldn't come for a while due to like a horrible tragedy. But he came back and he said to me this week when he came in he said I'm feeling so agitated and I can't figure out why. And then about halfway through the session he's like oh, you know what, I feel better now. I think I just needed to talk it out with you, right.
Lindsay Oakes:But here's the thing Like people have to be able to, and especially when you are in a relationship, even if you have your own issues and you're not coming to couples therapy and you're individual, you always have to be open to the other person's perspective and understanding things from their perspective and experience, or at least saying, hey, okay, I didn't think that way, right. Because one partner who was abandoned will always have this bit of fear of abandonment in them. And so it's like if you keep pushing them away, you have to look at your partner and just keep reminding them I'm not going to abandon you. I'm not going to abandon you, right. But don't you know, keep you know. Don't just say, okay, I'm done, because you're accusing me of that. Right and that's something that you know Gabor Mate would say too is that you have to remember that your perception is only one perception of the situation. Right, there's multiple perceptions of the same situation, depending on who's involved.
Cleveland Oakes:And so it sounds like you're saying that therapy is about building emotional resilience and self-awareness and not simply about fixing the problem. Therapy is to give you the tools to fix the problem. One of the things I appreciate, having worked in facilities for the last 13 years, is and we would talk about it is you can be proactive or you can be reactionary. Right, the problem with fixing an overflowing bathroom in a crisis moment, when you could have done the preventative maintenance on it, is now you're in an overflowing bathroom with all sorts of fecal matter and urine and everything, and it's. It's all over the place.
Cleveland Oakes:That's a really lovely analogy. Well, it's a great analogy because that's what people do. People wait until their bathroom is over, they sit in their crap and they're sitting there crap. And then they wait, and then they come to us and they're like hey, here's my crap, Fix it Right. What is a plumber going to do when he walks into your house and he he's like I don't know what to do with this. This is already exploded, this is done.
Lindsay Oakes:Right Now you need to fix the whole thing.
Cleveland Oakes:Now you need to fix like a gut renovation you have to do a gut renovation, and so when you wait until a crisis moment, I can't help you with a crisis moment, it's you can, I can, you can, but it's not like it's going to get better in one day, which is what leads us to the next point.
Lindsay Oakes:Right Is that you're not going to immediately feel better because you went to therapy. Oftentimes, right, I say, you start to feel worse.
Cleveland Oakes:Right, yes, you know. Listen, my practicum instructor two years ago said that that he and he's been practicing for a long time he was like, if a client leaves a session feeling good and maybe you agree with this, or maybe maybe you don't he felt that he did not do his job right because he wants a client to leave. He was like he actually preferred when clients left his sessions. A little mad at him, and why do you think that was the case, linds?
Lindsay Oakes:why the case is what that he felt like he felt better when a client left a session mad at him well, because I think it means that they're looking at their stuff right, like they're, they're sitting in it, they're stewing in it, they're thinking about it, they're processing it right, which is exactly what happened to me in this training. And I can't wait for you to take this training, because you really do look at a lot of your wounds and your childhood traumas and you say, oh well, that gives me insight into the patterns, the behaviors, the emotions, the things that I'm doing. Right, you learn a lot about yourself. And so I always say it's really, it's kind of ugly sometimes, right, and you, you know it's not easy to look at. Once you see it, you can't unsee it. You need to sit in it and then, like my old meditation teacher used to say, is like you sit in it, but then you have to eventually get up and change life's diaper and move on.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, a great saying, and I and I don't and I can't recall who is it attributed to, but a saying that came across at church a couple of weeks ago and it was a reporter church, yeah, um the good, the good, church, not the, not the, not the exorcism, not the exorcism. But the preacher said I think as a reporter, as a reporter from the 1920s, and he said this, he was like the truth that will set men free is often the truth that they do not want to hear. Right, but isn't that most of us? Yeah, but that's what happens in therapy. Right Is because is because me, as a therapist, at the end of the day, I'm not your friend, I am friendly, I'm not your buddy, but I am buddy-ish, but my job is to help you change what you're doing. Lindsay's job is to help you change what you're doing.
Lindsay Oakes:It's not to validate your story. My job is not to help them change it.
Cleveland Oakes:My job is to bring awareness to it so that they can figure out how to change it themselves, right, right, and that might take a great deal of discomfort.
Lindsay Oakes:It does. And I have to say, I mean listen, for how long I have been on this path. I have been meditating and practicing yoga and doing breath work for so, so, so many years. And practicing yoga and doing breath work for so, so, so many years. I am so aware of all of the things I've experienced, I am so aware of how painful they are. But sometimes new stuff comes up. And I say sometimes you, suddenly you're doing this work and then you, you start to notice a pattern in your life, or an emotion comes up for you, or you listen to something, and then you start to remember all these things that you didn't even remember had happened. And then you start over again and you're like, oh my God, I'm doing that thing again. And it's like, but that's okay, because it's like two steps forward, one step back.
Cleveland Oakes:Some time ago I had a family member of one of my clients, you know, at the start of therapy come to me and be like, oh well, I don't understand what you guys are doing, because he seems to have gotten worse. And it's like, that's, that's how, yeah. And I was like, well, that's how. And I talked to my supervisor about it and he was like, well, that person doesn't understand. That's how therapy works. It's like we are peeling back the layers and people have a reaction. It is not an easy thing to go back and look at your life and be like, oh, I was an ass.
Lindsay Oakes:Right. Well, you know what I think I love about the work that Gabor Mate does too, and I really just I'm so excited for you to do this. Training is when he, if you watch a session with him because he does a lot of sessions with clients especially when he's doing trainings he'll call people right up on stage. Yeah, I've seen him.
Lindsay Oakes:And you know he will never, ever answer for them. He will ask the same question a hundred times. Sometimes he seems almost like he's getting impatient and annoyed that people can't identify what it is, but he will ask the same question over and over again and he waits for the client to identify what it is. He never gives the answer. So even if he knows it and everybody else in the audience knows it he will never tell you what is going on within you. He will wait until you can find it yourself, because when you can identify it yourself, then you can start to relate it back to other experiences you've had and how it's impacting you now, in the present moment. And that's one of the reasons.
Cleveland Oakes:If you ever read the Bible or even follow any spiritual teacher like the Buddha, jesus would often say well, you yourself have said it. Jesus never told people what to do. He wanted you to arrive at your own conclusions. And it goes back to what our friend said, that the best thing that you as a therapist can do is help the client, get them to say what their own goal is out of their mouth. Right, and it shouldn't be your goal. I want to move on to this last myth Therapy is only for people with that are crazy, or with mental health diagnoses. Why is this a myth?
Lindsay Oakes:Well, I think this is actually probably kind of an old school thing, because when we were growing up, I would say therapy was probably taboo. It meant something was wrong with you, right. But now I kind of think therapy is a bit trendy. Right, people go to therapy, but I think it's because people want to work on themselves, right, people want to be a little bit more awake and aware. There's also so much trauma and tragedy happening in the world that I think people are like oh, now I want to go. So I don't necessarily think, I think there's certain, I think maybe culturally, there's people who do not, you know, really believe in therapy, right, and I even see, for example, right, I work for early intervention, I do diagnostic or developmental evaluations for children, and when I do the developmental testing, a lot of parents like.
Lindsay Oakes:Today here's an example I saw a family, the mom had the baby, I think, in Ecuador and he's only two now, two and a half.
Lindsay Oakes:So they came here, you know, sometime in the past two and a half years and the kid is so clearly to me on the autism spectrum and the mother is sitting there just insisting it's communication only, it's speech, it's speech, it's speech.
Lindsay Oakes:And I'm like speech is only a little part of it. The kid's spinning and spinning and he's flapping his hands and he's running back and forth and he's throwing toys and he's doing all this stuff and I'm sitting there and I'm like, okay, like, and it's like culturally, it's like nope, he's just not talking at speech, right, and it's just like when you go to a lot of African families they say, oh, I'm going to send my, I'll just send my kid back to Africa, right, we don't, we don't do this stuff there, right, and maybe it's because they just kind of allow people to live and be right, and we have a lot of pressures like societal pressures and educational pressures here. But I think I think a piece of it is cultural, I think a part of it is generational, but I do think now more and more people are open to the idea of therapy. So I don't think it's really, you know that that's so much of a myth anymore.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, yeah, I think I think you're right. I think I just think people misunderstand. And I once had a client remember the fella that, um, his remember the fella like some time ago, um, that he just didn't even tell his wife that they were coming to therapy.
Lindsay Oakes:Oh, my God, I remember that when you had that.
Cleveland Oakes:And then I'm like bro, this is not how it works. Remember he was chasing her around with the phone and I'm like, and I'm like yo dog, dog, she's cooking dinner for the kids. And she's like I didn't even know we were doing this tonight. And he was like well, that's what we got the therapist. He's going to fix our problems and I'm like no. I was like, so sit down both of you but this is not how it works's like first of all, do you even know if she wants to fix it with you?
Lindsay Oakes:and she's like I don't even know if I want to fix it so she's like right now I just want to make dinner for the kids and so you can't expect a therapist just to come fix stuff.
Cleveland Oakes:And I wanted this is we. We have a. We have a family friendly podcast. But this is where I would want to curse. If I was sitting down with a client I'd probably curse but we can't fix the ish that you messed up. We can talk you through it, but, just like if I was a plumber coming into a, a disgusting bathroom, I can't suddenly just fix that.
Lindsay Oakes:I can't snap my right and the other thing is too right is I cannot. You know, I can't help you to help yourself. Also, if you're not willing to take any accountability, and it's if you're chasing her around the house and there's no communication, you're sitting there telling her right. This is a huge problem too, and I and I was going to say I don't know if you've ever read that book called crazy, like us. It's the global globalization of the American psyche. Um, but this is a book about cultural mental health and it and it looks at diagnoses from the DSM in different parts of the world. I don't have I ever talked to you about this? I think.
Lindsay Oakes:I have the book upstairs and you know, basically, when you think about mental health diagnoses right, I mean in America, and that's why I was saying before, like people from Africa, they're like, oh, we'll just send them back to Africa, it's okay. And in Africa they, you know schizophrenia, people with schizophrenia diagnoses, like they actually say that it's not even a mental health diagnosis. They're just like possessed by a demon. That's what they believe, that they are possessed by a demon.
Cleveland Oakes:I know that from heaven since church, because it's a Nigerian church.
Lindsay Oakes:Right. So isn't that interesting, though? Right, because when you think about it, we put such a focus on mental health and on the diagnosing, and then you go to other places and they're like, oh no, he just has a demon right and that's it, and then the person is not mistreated or treated any differently or made to be like an outcast, and you know, so it is. It's very interesting when you look at mental health and and you look at how mental health is around the globe as well, because here in america we diagnose everything, and Gabor Mate would say that there is one diagnosis and it's post-traumatic complex stress, and that that is actually what leads to all of the other diagnoses, and I would agree with that. I would agree with that.
Cleveland Oakes:So now that we've covered that and we're coming up on the tail end of everything, I want to ask you what are some steps that clients can do to do the work between the sessions? What are some things that they should be?
Lindsay Oakes:Well, I mean, I say it ad nauseum, but have some type of practice in your life, whether it be exercise, meditation, yoga, breathing, whatever it is. Have that practice in your life. Self-care, that is your self-care. It keeps the battery of the nervous system drained. It means you are less activated most of the time, and then when you do get activated, it's not as severe or significant.
Lindsay Oakes:The other thing I do is journaling, and really, for me, journaling looks like this is what happened. This is how I felt. End of story, right, it's like a victim impact statement, basically A few words that are like this is how I feel. You can curse, you can do whatever you want, right, but it's, you know, just and then just really kind of like reframing your thinking, looking at the things that are coming up for you and trying to change your perspective on them. That sounds like mindfulness, yeah, well, yeah, yeah, it's kind of like a CBT technique too, right, but it's just about reframing, because for every negative you can put a positive on it, right.
Lindsay Oakes:It's like when I have a client, for example, who write a couple, especially where it's like that one person will come in and be like just crapping all over the other one, it's like, oh well, what if you looked at it from this perspective, right, that's what happened this week when I had a couple where he said, oh, you know, she's just nagging me, she, I come from work and she just wants to know what's wrong. And if I don't want to talk to her I had a long day cause I work in a physical job and blah, blah, blah. And I was like, oh, I was like, so you're upset that your wife is excited to see you when you get home? I said, oh, I said I said maybe you should don't you take your shower, go play an hour of video game and regroup over dinner together? And but you know, it's like people don't think of that perspective. They take what comes into them.
Lindsay Oakes:Right, I'm feeling nagged, I don't want to talk right now, I had a long day and then they're putting it on the other person oh, you're bothering me, right? And then the other person is sitting there and the woman's sitting there, and the woman sitting there and she's so upset, and it's like, oh, she was like excited to see you. Like, you know, there's plenty of people who aren't excited to see their partner when they come home. So you know, and then, and that's like a big shift for people's like look at from that perspective Right.
Cleveland Oakes:Right and and and and some other things that you can do to be mindful. Um and you've tried, and we're going to go to Sedona in 2025. Um and I also because of some of the articles that I've I've written on on on LinkedIn we've recently received an invite to join the U S uh Tibet house, which um and the gentleman from there also sent me a bunch of. Did you see the retreats that they have? I sent you a bunch of retreats, but breathing exercises, body scans and mindful walks right.
Lindsay Oakes:Those are all things that you can do. A third thing is creating new habits. And, lindsay, how does creating a new habit help a client? It's something that helps you to work on yourself. It helps you to become more aware. You become more aware and then, therefore, you start to react differently. You recognize things, you stop yourself, you think, you slow down, and that really can stop so many arguments. I don't understand why people want to be aggravated. I don't even understand that I never want to be aggravated.
Cleveland Oakes:I think some people do.
Lindsay Oakes:Right, like I was not aggravated at all. The other day I woke up, I was ready for the day and then the queen mom had like made a pot of coffee and she once again dumped all the grounds into the machine, didn't measure it. It was like the coffee pot was filled with coffee, it was filled with grounds, the thing was messy. I was so annoyed and then that was like that activated me and I was like you know what? Let me just you know what. I was like I'm just gonna abandon this and abort mission and just go make a pour over cup and call it a day, because I was like I don't want to deal with this right now. Right, it's like change, change what's going on. Stop yourself and just say like let me just start fresh here. There's always a different solution. There's not only one solution to every problem.
Cleveland Oakes:Bringing it back to that physical fitness analogy, matt Wilpers, who we love at Peloton, would tell you that for physical fitness, you have to start small, that consistency is the key and to track your progress, right. And so Matt would also encourage you that those same things that Matt says is physical fitness are the same things that you have to do with mental fitness. Right, with mental health. Um, how about challenging unhelpful narratives?
Lindsay Oakes:Well, I mean, that's always, that's always the case, right, you have to. You have to like, look at what your narrative is and put a different spin on it. Right, and I just talked about that briefly in another section. But you know, look at it as like when I say to you know, when clients have a problem with something, like at their partner, for example, and we'll say, oh, he did this and he did some, and I'm like, right, but he's like loyal and committed to you, right, so it's like also look for the positives, right, and I tell people and they all laugh. I tell every single one of my clients.
Lindsay Oakes:I was like, I was like I could tell you everything. I was like, if you want me to call my husband in here right now and they'll like laugh, I'll say I'll tell him one thing I don't like about him, and I'm sure he could come back with one he doesn't like about me. I said, hands down, I said, and we could probably go back and forth for hours, right, about, I don't like when you do this. Well, I don't like when you do this, and you know, and it's like, and it's humorous, but like you know, and you said to me the other day. Right that we? He's like I don't get it, because we see all these clients and they fight and they bicker and it's like there's so's done now. Yeah, it's done Like, move on Right. People get so stuck.
Cleveland Oakes:Stop getting stuck. Like what are you? What are you winning? Like you know, boy George, yeah, people want to win. Oh, it drives me nuts, boy George. In the song Karma Chameleon was like every day is like survival. You're my lover, not my rival. And I do not understand for the why people get in relationships and decide that they hate the other person or that they have a prove a point to the other person or they have to control the other person. What did Grandma Jean say to me the day that I that many, many years ago, when we talk about this story, I actually told this to some clients that were having some difficulty.
Lindsay Oakes:Treat your wife like you treat yourself.
Cleveland Oakes:You treat your wife like you treat yourself Right.
Lindsay Oakes:Treat her like the precious gem that she is.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah. And so for husbands out there, you treat your wife like you treat yourself. For wives out there, you treat your. You treat your, you know you. You treat your husband like you treat yourself Anybody who's in a relationship heterosexual, homosexual. You treat your partner the way that you would treat yourself.
Lindsay Oakes:And I remember before you moved in with me there was some time. I don't remember what happened in your house, but you were so mad at the kids and you went home and you were going crazy for a couple of days and then you got home from work and your mother had taped a note to the door that told you that you could only come in if you were going to stop your behavior, because you weren't worth any gold medal either. Yeah, yeah.
Cleveland Oakes:I remember that. I remember that that was actually very, that was actually very, very, very funny. But you have to treat people like you want to be treated Right and and and, especially in couples and that means you have to do the work. You know, oftentimes couples come and I can tell you I've had this experience where couples come and they try to score points with me. I've had to stop people and be like yo, I don't know you and I don't know you and at the end of the day, I don't care about what you're doing Like. You're not scoring any points with me. I'm only here to help you get to the bottom of what is messing up your relationship. You have to get over. As your professor in NYU said many years ago, if you're doing the work between the sessions, you have to get over being right.
Lindsay Oakes:Yes, because it doesn't matter if you're right, like you know what is more important for you to be right? Are you to be married or for you to be right or to have the job right, or be right and be in a relationship or have that friend? I have zero desire to be right. That's why I always say right and Jack Kornfield says this just say okay, like if you don't agree with somebody, okay, that's your opinion, okay, even if it's wrong and you 100% know it's wrong and they're insisting that purple is yellow, you're just like all right, all right.
Cleveland Oakes:You know, I talked to somebody the other day about perpetual problems. Right, there's a difference between perpetual problems and solvable problems, right? A perpetual problem is one, as you just said, where we just not going to agree on this. Right, A perpetual problem is not somebody who beats you or someone who's abusive to you. That is a problem we would tell you to get out of that relationship, right?
Cleveland Oakes:But, a perpetual problem is just something that you guys. That is minor, like it's leaving Cheetos on the counter. It's just it's. It's something that is not going to change. And can you, as my professor in grad school said, to ask clients, well, can you live with this person, even if this never changes?
Lindsay Oakes:A hundred percent. And you have to right, because I know that you think this of me and I definitely think this of you. I'm sure there are things about me that in eight years I haven't changed, and there's things about you that in eight years that we've been together, you haven't changed. But you know, what's interesting are both of our perspectives changed, because these used to be things that would have annoyed us and we would have bickered about. And now we're both like, yeah, right. And you even told me recently that when my meditation practice really, really picked up and I started doing a lot more work on myself, that you would get annoyed, because when you'd want to pick the fight, I'd just be like, nope, whatever, all right, I'm going to go upstairs. Then you were like, oh right, but it is, it's like you know. But then at the end of the day, when you come back to it, you're like, yeah, I'm kind of glad we didn't have an argument.
Cleveland Oakes:Glad that we didn't fight, Glad that we didn't have the argument, and as we, for instance. For example, if you think I will always fail, you have to recognize that the narrative that this thought has created, you know, question it. Ask yourself is this thought based on facts or is it based on assumptions? Right, that's something that I always have to catch myself because you always tell me I like to invent stories, right? What evidence do I have that this story that I've invented for myself is real? Or what evidence do I have that contradicts this negative thought? And reframe, you know, replace unhelpful thoughts with balanced, empowering ones. Instead of saying I always fail, you might say sometimes I struggle, but I've succeeded in the past and I will improve practice.
Cleveland Oakes:Who was a very Christian and used to beat himself up for having simple failings and thought he was a failure? Um, and just thought he was an awful person because he couldn't live up to what he felt were God's standards Right. And then I shared a scripture with him from the Bible and I go to haven't been, I just recently started back going to church and I only go every other Sunday but it was a scripture in the Bible where God says my thoughts are not your thoughts and my ways are not your ways. What do you think God meant? If you believe in God, what would? And, Linz, I know you don't go to church, but what do you think that? But what do you think that scripture means? When God says my thoughts are not your thoughts and my ways are not your ways, what do you think he's telling the average person?
Lindsay Oakes:Aren't they have their own unique way of doing things? Yes, and I said this to a couple this week too right, there's two ways of doing things, there's more than one way of doing the same thing and there's more than two. Really Right, but it's you know, it's like I said that because a couple was fighting over something and I was like your way is not the only way.
Cleveland Oakes:Right, right, right. So here, many holy texts, be it the Quran, be it the Talmud, be it the Bible, be it the Bhagavad Gita, you know God clearly says that my thoughts are not your thoughts, my ways are not your ways. I'm up here, I'm God. I don't expect you to be God. There's only one God, or, if you believe in other religions, many gods, but it's still a God is more than a person, right. So the standard that that this is the standard that you could be if you were perfect, if you were aligned. But God in the Bible has clearly said, or whatever Holy scripture you believe in, that my thoughts are not your thoughts, my ways are not your ways, I don't expect you to be like me.
Cleveland Oakes:So there is no reason to beat yourself up when you don't hit whatever goal that you thought you were supposed to hit, because that is what being imperfect is. It means that you are going to miss the mark, but what it is does mean is you have to reframe. Sometimes I struggle, but I've succeeded in the past and I will improve with practice, and that really is what therapy is all about. You're sitting with us, the spotters who are helping you, who are coaching you. Now for some people they only need to. I've had people that I've only needed to see for six months. I've had other people that I'm sure I'll probably need to see him for six years, you know, yeah.
Cleveland Oakes:I have some too, but it's a process. It's a process as we wrap up Linz. What's in a way that people could put this all together in a successful day. You know what would a successful day might look like. You know, putting it in the section that's putting it all together, like what would you?
Lindsay Oakes:know. So it's just you know. I think it's just like starting your day from with. You know. I said to a client yesterday I start my day every single day. I'm religiously meditate.
Cleveland Oakes:Yes.
Lindsay Oakes:Every single day I'm religiously meditate. Yes, Every single day I meditate and I start my day that way. It starts my day from a calmer place. So it's whatever you want to do that helps you to get there. I mean, you get up and go to the gym at 5am, right? That's where you kind of do your meditation, so to speak.
Lindsay Oakes:I always check in with myself throughout the day. If you start to connect with yourself somatically, when the thoughts start to come in and the emotions start to arise, where do you feel it in your body and what does it feel like? What does it remind you of Check in with your body? Be kind to yourself, let your shoulders drop right and, like, check in. I always loosen my jaw, relax my face, just check on myself, and you can do that throughout your day. You can. If you're at work and it's stressful, you could go to the bathroom and sit on a toilet and do a little body scan, right, and just get away from everybody. And at the end of the day, right, Turn off the screen, maybe read, sit a little in the dark before bedtime, but just really unwind from the day and let things go right, Leave work behind and the thing is when you have good boundaries. You can leave things behind and come home and have a different experience at home than you do at work.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, so so it's. So it's a daily process, that's an hourly process, that's a minutely process, that's a secondly process, right? So in the morning you may, as you said, you may, start your day with a five minute breathing exercise and meditate. A midday, if you're on a lunch and I've told this to clients that work in the city take a mindful walk or a body scan during your lunch to stay grounded. Walk around the building, get away from your desk, do something and in the evening, journal, sit down with your partner, if you have one. Talk about the day, reflect on your day If you are single, journal about your day and reflect on any negative narratives that come up.
Cleveland Oakes:And, more importantly, don't sit in that narrative. Don't sit in that poop, in that urine-filled bathroom, but challenge yourself to get out of that space, right? Challenge yourself to fix those leaky pipes before you're sitting in a pile of your own mess or, as the Bible says, are your dog returning to your vomit, before you're looking at somebody else to help you when you didn't try to help yourself in the first place.
Lindsay Oakes:Yeah, a hundred percent. I think that's it, that's it yeah.
Cleveland Oakes:So what we want to leave you guys with is some reflection questions for the listener. This is my door knob questions, and so these are two. These are three questions that I want you. That, lindsay, and I want you to take away and think about from this session is how can you take more ownership of your healing journey, what practices can you integrate into your daily routine to support your emotional and mental well-being? And, lastly, in what ways can you challenge the narratives that are holding you back from growth? What do you think about that, lindsay? I think that's great. Those are good questions, right? We want you to reflect on how you can work out your healing between sessions, reflect on how you can work out your healing between sessions and, if you're interested and if you have a story that you'd love to share, please email us at get to know the devil at Gmail dot com. But this has been another episode of the devil. You don't know. This has been Cleveland and Lindsay.
Cleveland Oakes:And thank you for listening. If you like what you heard, please share it with your friends and your family. Follow us on iTunes or Spotify or wherever the podcasts are found, and also like and subscribe. Until the next time.
