The Devil You Don’t Know
In The Devil You Don’t Know, Lindsay, Cleveland, and their guests discuss personal growth and development by taking chances and getting out of your comfort zone. Topics range from whimsical to serious and everything in between but are always relevant to growth and development.
The Devil You Don’t Know
60% In: The Struggle with Partial Commitments, Investing in Self Worth for Healthier Connections
Ever wondered why partial commitments can feel like a full-time strain? Join us as we crack open the emotional rollercoaster of half-hearted investments in relationships and the unique challenges faced by house husbands. Cleveland shares his candid experiences of maintaining a clean home while Lindsay spills the tea on her binge-worthy obsession with "Gilmore Girls" and her dreamy vacation plans to Nevis. Through humor and heartfelt conversations, we explore how these partial commitments impact mental health, self-esteem, and overall wellness, making a compelling case for the joys of feeling truly appreciated.
Please email us at Gettoknowthedevil@gmail.com
This is Cleveland.
Lindsay Oakes:This is Lindsay.
Cleveland Oakes:And this is another episode of the Devil. You Don't Know, lindsay, what are we going to be talking about today?
Lindsay Oakes:60% in the struggle with partial commitments.
Cleveland Oakes:Oh yeah, that's a really good one. I came up with this one because I sat down with a client some time ago and I asked them that they were complaining about their relationship, and while they were complaining about their relationship they actually said when they asked their boyfriend what was their level of commitment in the relationship, they said the guy was like I'm about 60 percent. So in this episode we'll explore the phenomenon that many of us experienced in either friendships, relationships or work, which is with somebody or a thing is only half or partially invested in the relationship, and we're going to explore what this problem of partial fulfillment, how accepting, how your mindset is impacted by being in emotionally draining and limiting relationships and situations, and then we'll explore why a partial commitment isn't enough and how being in situations with partial commitments and impacts your mental health, your self-esteem and overall wellness. What do you think about that?
Lindsay Oakes:I think that's great, but first, how's being a house husband treating you?
Cleveland Oakes:Oh, it's been good. It's been good. I'm in love under new management and I like to say new management is coming to my life. Listen speaking of, of of partial commitments and loving the things that don't love you back. It's great to be in a relationship with somebody who appreciates me Right.
Lindsay Oakes:Oh, you're just saying that because you've been cranky this week.
Cleveland Oakes:No, I can definitely say no. You're not used to me being more assertive than I normally am.
Lindsay Oakes:You've not been assertive, you've been cranky, you're always assertive than I normally am.
Cleveland Oakes:You've not been assertive, you've been cranky.
Lindsay Oakes:Okay, if you want to say You're always assertive.
Cleveland Oakes:Thank you, Thank you, oh my God. But no, it's been. But to get back to your main question no, it's been. It's been good, I've been fulfilled, I've been.
Lindsay Oakes:I've been loving it. I'm reaping the benefits. Every day I come home and the house is clean. It's so fabulous. I didn't. 40 hours a week and then coming home and not having time yeah, but man, let's talk for a minute about how much work it is when you own a house.
Lindsay Oakes:Whenever I go to my parents' house, it's clean all the time and I'm like so envious of that. Now, our house is clean all the time, but for the love of God, it is just a daily like hour after hour chore. The other day I washed all these dishes, you did the dishes, I did the dinner dishes, I dried everything, I put it away and when I got up in the morning the sink was full.
Cleveland Oakes:Well, that's the queen mom's fault, because neither one of us eat several times a day. The amazing thing about kids, right, and the amazing things when you are the only two individuals in the house that cleans of. At one point it was like five of us here and now it's just, uh, just the four of us. When the college drop-in is here is when the other two folks don't help. The house is a huge mess. Uh, one of the things I can say about being a house husband right now is, like you know, I'm home and even though I work from home, I'm see clients from home. I have a lot of time during the day because I see the majority of my clients in the evening.
Lindsay Oakes:We also have 15 minutes between sessions, which can always be an empty the dishwasher or throw a load of wash in.
Cleveland Oakes:And that is what I do, and it takes a lot of work to keep the house clean. I think last Sunday, while you were doing the Gilmore Girl marathon. Yeah, I'm still doing it. Yeah, you didn't see me for the whole Sunday because all I was doing was doing the laundry and avoiding the Gilmore girls. And, yeah, I'm not really super interested. Even though it's a great show, I'm not super interested in it and plug the Lori Ulster.
Lindsay Oakes:Yeah, my best friend, one of my best friends, who's been on the show before, who wrote her new book. Uh, life lessons with the Gilmore girls from the Gilmore girls the things I've learned about life and love that.
Cleveland Oakes:I think that's the subtitle no it's about coffee and the subtitle.
Lindsay Oakes:Oh, I almost brought the book down, but it's upstairs. I'm loving it, and so I have been binge watching the Gilmore Girls for a couple of weeks now. Yeah, I forgot how much I love that show. I also forgot how many things happened in it.
Cleveland Oakes:And how many people got their starts. I think what's her name is on there from Bridesmaids right. Oh, suki, the chef, suki Suki. What's the actress's real name?
Lindsay Oakes:I'm really bad at stuff like that. You should know better than to ask me by now.
Cleveland Oakes:I can't recall, but well, somebody in the-.
Lindsay Oakes:Yeah, great show, very funny, very quippy. I forgot how much I liked it. I forgot all of the humor and the anecdotes in it. So thank you, lori, because you've made me start watching again.
Cleveland Oakes:So so you've asked me what have I been up to? What have you been up to?
Lindsay Oakes:Me? Um well, working, all the time working, planning our next vacations. So we've been doing that Going to go to Nevis.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, Nevis.
Lindsay Oakes:We're going to go with the rich and famous for a week instead of our usual budget vacations.
Cleveland Oakes:I don't think we've ever taken a budget vacation. We've taken reasonably priced vacations, but to most people they would not be a budget vacation.
Lindsay Oakes:Well, we are going to Nevis for two weeks on spring break with the queen mom and that will be a lot of fun for her and for us. And when I called to arrange it they were like a boat will meet you at the airport. I felt fancy for a minute there.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, well, you need that. And then the other thing I think the other trip that we're trying to plan right now is we're trying to go to you looking for places in Sedona during President's Week that we're going to hopefully get out to. I've been trying to get to Arizona for years.
Lindsay Oakes:But it's President's Week, so I need to find an adult only establishment. Yeah, it's going to be good, though. Yeah, no, it's going to be good. Have you eaten anything good lately? Anything good vegan.
Cleveland Oakes:Oh, this morning I made myself some just egg. Oh yeah, you love that With the with the mushroom bites were pretty good, and in that Breville air fryer, the uh with the mushroom bites were pretty good, and in that breville air fryer you got that the queen mum. For some reason, I don't know why the queen mum can't make a bagel in the air fryer. There's a button that says bagel.
Lindsay Oakes:There's a button that says bagel I just don't listen to her when she says that I pretend I don't hear.
Cleveland Oakes:Well, I think she just was in a mood to. Just for some reason she was just in this mood that to complain.
Lindsay Oakes:All day yesterday it was like the the air is too airy, the water is too wet well, she's out with her friends today, so we are in the house alone, which is a very rare occurrence, and it's actually quite nice. We should actually make good use of that time well by doing more, more cleaning.
Cleveland Oakes:No, that's exactly what I had oh, I thought that's what you had in mind. Remember, this is a family show that's correct. I didn't say anything that dad listens to.
Lindsay Oakes:I didn't't say anything. So so are you ready to jump in? I'm ready to jump in.
Cleveland Oakes:I've dated a few commitment phobes in my life, so so, yeah, talk about some personal anecdotes that you have a in this regard. I think you know, before I met you you had a whole dating life.
Lindsay Oakes:So if you mind, I didn't really have like a whole dating life. I dated occasionally.
Lindsay Oakes:Well you had a lot.
Lindsay Oakes:You had some dating experience, right, and I think we all meet people who are not all in at times.
Lindsay Oakes:So I had a uh, I think before I dated you, I dated somebody who, well, it was a Sergeant in the um NYPD and he was a bit of a commitment phobe, which I kind of have a rule that when you get to a certain age and you've never been in a really serious relationship or been married, there's probably something wrong with you. But, um, yeah, he just couldn't really commit and then he didn't like children, and so then he it was like the shortest break, the shortest relationship with the longest breakup. He had me on the phone forever just telling me how he just didn't like children and all these, and I was just like, dude, okay, I've been dating you for like six weeks, we really don't need to have a whole breakup over this. And then he came back a little while later and he thought we could change the nature of the relationship and I was like nah, still have kids it's like, bro, you told me you weren't interested in in all of me, so why should you be interested in some of me?
Lindsay Oakes:Correct and that's that's how people are. You know it's very hard for people to commit. I think you know someone in our life that we know pretty well came over last week and she has a lot of trouble committing. You know who I'm talking about.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, yeah, but we can't, we can't say names. Heaven Sent, oh yes, oh yes, heaven Sent, but you know what? Heaven Sent is representative of a lot of the clients that I see especially. I wanted to say I wanted to generalize for a moment. I think you meant a second, a second, but honestly, I see it on both sides of the sexes. I think sometimes with women, the interesting thing about women is they want bad boys, right. Well, yeah, heaven't said she likes drama. Yeah, and they like drama, and for a lot of the men it's like they want somebody they can save. But once again, why would you, in real life, would you put yourself in a position, in a situation if it's something like, would you buy a car that only worked 60% of the time?
Lindsay Oakes:Like, would you?
Cleveland Oakes:buy a car that only worked 60% of the time? No, I wouldn't. You know, as I told somebody, you can't be 40% dead, 60% alive. You're either. You know, as the Bible says, you're either hot or cold, you know.
Lindsay Oakes:It's like would you like to move into this apartment? You can stay here 60% of the year and then find somewhere else for the rest.
Cleveland Oakes:But for 100% of the year, and then find somewhere else for the rest, but for a hundred percent of the rent Right. And and so what are the psychological and emotional?
Lindsay Oakes:effects, lindsay, of being in a one-sided relationship. You've been a therapist. Well, I think the I mean I, you know, I don't know about, like the, you know, I think the problem is is that people try to change people Right, and so I mean, a perfect example is heaven sent when she was dating. Well, we actually talked to her about it last week. So I will say out loud I won't mention too many things, but I did talk to her about her track record. What are you looking at? You need something from me.
Lindsay Oakes:I was just looking at something over there, but you're looking around, like you don't think I'm paying attention or something.
Cleveland Oakes:No, you are paying attention. You're in the middle of talking, so continue, OK.
Lindsay Oakes:So I think people and especially I'll use her as an example because I was talking about this with her is that you date people and they all have an issue, and one of the more recent ones I reminded her of when she said that this new guy wasn't enough drama and he was too nice.
Lindsay Oakes:When she was here, I said do you remember the time you were sitting here having a panic attack in our house Because you're dating a guy and he wouldn't commit to you? But then you said, when you first met him, you told him what you wanted and he said that he didn't want a serious relationship. So it's, you know, people often inflicted on themselves and in the example of your client, in that moment, if she wants a hundred percent in, it's her job to say, hey, you can't give me what I want in a relationship and what I'm looking for, Right. And then on the flip side of it, you know we've got the youngest one, who we don't talk about too much because he's probably the most functional right and he has a nice long-term relationship and she's lovely and from the get-go. What did she say?
Cleveland Oakes:I am dating for marriage yeah, and and here here's the thing that same client we actually met a couple of weeks ago and we had a conversation and she's still kind of in the same position and and I want to ask you your thoughts on this where I was like, well, why don't you just say what you want and then she goes back to me. That's giving an ultimatum.
Lindsay Oakes:And I was like how is that? No, it's not. She doesn't want to say what she wants because she's not going to get the answer that she wants to hear, right, Right, right, which is, yes, I've changed my mind and I'm a hundred percent in. No, because the dude is not a hundred percent in. And, by the way, if this is the client who has been going back and forth with this guy for many, many years, okay, and he's never committed, so why is he going to commit to you now? He doesn't want to.
Cleveland Oakes:And it's interesting that people will put themselves in a situation with a relationship or a job or with a friendship, where they'll go back and forth for many years settling for less than what they deserve.
Lindsay Oakes:They wait for the person to change. And people aren't going to change unless they want to change Right. The other thing that happens I don't know if this has happened with any of your clients is like in this. If you could use your client as an example here. But it's like when somebody wants the relationship so bad and the other person won't commit, and then the dude will go meet someone else and commit, which means he just wasn't that into you.
Cleveland Oakes:And we've seen that on our favorite program, 90 day fiance, and it wasn't. It was um, sure it was um. What was that? The? Uh, the romantic, the one, the Island, the Island. I can't remember the 90 day show, that's just about something about paradise. Yeah, remember Sherlon was like that, where Sherlon was with this girl and I can't remember the baby and everything. I can't remember her name, I can't remember her name. But she was devastated when Sherlon got married to somebody else.
Lindsay Oakes:And it's like dude Sherlon had sex with you while you were on vacation in Jamaica.
Cleveland Oakes:You had like a one night stand and you got knocked up, yeah, and you tried to make a relationship with somebody who told you from the beginning he was not that into.
Lindsay Oakes:Also, let's just talk about the quality of the person who's sleeping with women and probably sleeping with multiple women who are on vacations and just getting his rocks off every day. I mean, that's not somebody you really want to be with anyway. I mean, would you ever trust someone who, like, slept with you on a vacation?
Cleveland Oakes:No, but it's amazing that because people, both men and women right, and I'm going to say something a little controversial here, but my friend Paul used to always tell me you can't turn a hoe into a housewife, right, and that means the same thing. You can't turn a hoe into a house husband when somebody tells you that they are not committed, right, and we can think of multiple scenarios like this. I think you have somebody that you're working with now that they've been in a long-term relationship and two decades ago, at the start of that relationship, that person told the other individual I am not interested.
Lindsay Oakes:I don't want to get married. Two weeks before the wedding, and I think we talked might've talked about this in another episode, but absolutely and so in that moment I said well, when someone tells you that, and I said, and? So you turned around and then convinced him otherwise. And now, 17 years later, he's still doing the same stuff, because he told you then he didn't want to get married.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, I had someone just the other day in a couple that I'm working with. You know, we were sitting in the session and the person was saying well, well, he forced me into this and you know, he forced me into the scenario and he, he forces me to stay, he forces me to stay, um, in the situation. And I was like wait, wait, wait, huh. And me and the gentleman were both confused, cause he was like I don't, I don't force you to stay anywhere, right? And so the example that I brought out. I was like well, wait a minute. Um, well, if I have to, I was like can you explain?
Lindsay Oakes:I guess guess was she shackled in a room and the door was locked and there were bars on the windows and there was no phone or anything.
Cleveland Oakes:No, no, none of that oh, so she chose to stay. So she chose to stay, and that was the point. I was like, wait a minute, wait a minute. I was like, unless this person is physically barring you, and that's a completely different situation, and we would encourage you to get the authorities involved, of course. If that is the case, you have the freedom to leave, right, you have the freedom to not accept what they're giving you. And the example that I used is if you were to go to McDonald's and get a Big Mac and you saw me spit in the Big Mac that I'm serving you, and then you still buy it and eat it, whose fault is that?
Lindsay Oakes:Right, well, and really, at the end of the day, what does it come down to? It comes down to self-esteem, right. It comes down to not loving yourself and not being content enough with yourself. That you're trying to convince someone else to be with you, because then it makes you feel better about yourself. It's like you won a prize.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, let me. Let me ask you a question. Yeah, how can you, how can someone in the audience recognize when they're settling for a 60 percent or partial commitment situation, when they're settling for a 60%?
Lindsay Oakes:or partial commitment situation. Well, I mean, you don't even have to recognize it because all you have to do is ask a person. Right? This is the biggest mistake people make in relationships and I talk about this with almost every client is that they don't talk about their expectations. Right, if you have an expectation that you would like to get married and have children, then you can't be dating the person who just wants to sleep with multiple women and doesn't want to commit. So it's you know. And so I guess that would be when you recognize it right, when the person can't commit, when the person isn't available, when you don't fully trust the person.
Cleveland Oakes:Right, yeah, that makes a lot. That makes a lot of sense. So why is it that, with that, with you giving that, providing us that answer, why is it that you, as a, as a therapist, why is it do you believe that people still accept partial commitments and investments from others?
Lindsay Oakes:Well, people don't like to be alone, right? I mean, in the case of my client, who is, I maybe, is going to leave that relationship now, after 17 years, I did inquire with her. I specifically said to her let me ask you a question. I said, why, like, what is making you stick around? Why are you sticking around for this, this abuse, this repeated abuse? And you know, and it's often right, it comes down to self-esteem. And she did say to me that she had a horrible relationship with her mother and her mother told her that nobody would ever marry her.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, and that sounds like something that I once learned about, which is a scarcity mindset, right, and so my opinion on that same question is I think people stay in relationships or stay in situations, and I could tell you that with work right In my situation.
Lindsay Oakes:Oh, I know somebody who's in a horrible relationship that's probably never going to walk away from it. They fight all the time and yeah, but. But you know it comes down to this self-esteem thing and it's like, and once again it's like, okay, now let me live life and prove to my mother that I can be with somebody, but let me be miserable while I do it. And instead it's like, stand on your own two feet and who cares what your mother thinks? Walk away from it. You don't have a relationship with your mother anyway. So what is it? You're going to call her to tell her you got divorced? You don't even have to tell her.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, you don't have to say, but for me, like the scarcity mindset, is you think that something so rare? So say for instance with you know you encouraged me for many, many, many years to get out of corporate, to get out of the job that I was in, because you saw very much that they didn't appreciate.
Cleveland Oakes:Well, you were a hundred percent in and they were about 20% committed to you right, you saw they didn't appreciate me, but part of why I felt that way, that I felt is was from a scarcity mindset. Right, a scarcity mindset is I will never get this again. This woman that I have, this man that I have, this job that I have. I will never get it again. This woman that I have, this man that I have, this job that I have. I will never get it again. So let me stay in this terrible situation because it's scarce, and let me tell you guys a secret Love is not scarce. Money is not scarce. It could be scarce. Jobs are not scarce. You can find the things that love you and that deserve you to love them when, if you put some effort to it, there is someone.
Lindsay Oakes:Well, it's really putting the effort into yourself right. It's you know, deciding like. You know who are you, what feeds your soul, right, and then you're going to meet somebody when you're confident. I think you're much more attractive to people right Than like grasping at straws right, think about somebody. It's like you're begging someone else to marry you after they said no and then they go through with it. It's just the person, even like you, from that day.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, I think that's. I agree, right, and like I was getting ready to say, as I told, I think there's someone for everybody, right?
Cleveland Oakes:A person asks me, you do say that all the time A person asks me well, you don't believe in soulmates, and I was like have. Believing in a soulmate is setting yourself up for scarcity mindset. You are literally lying to yourself and saying that there is only one person in all of space time. That is your person. That is and no offense to anybody out there that believes in soulmates that is a foolish belief. There are 8 billion people on planet earth. One of my favorite sayings from Star Trek is IDIC, which is infinite diversity in infinite combinations. With 8 billion people out there in the world, you can make it work with one of those 8 billion people, right?
Lindsay Oakes:It's about getting to know each other and building a relationship.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, because if soulmates really existed, then why do 56% of the people that get married in the United States get divorced?
Lindsay Oakes:Well, that's because people don't do the work on themselves, right and so we talked about that in another episode. You have to constantly do the work on yourself, and you also have to let go of control of things.
Cleveland Oakes:Right, right. So, lenzo, moving on from that, what is the toll of what would you say is the toll of the emotional labor and overcompensating for someone else's lack of investment?
Lindsay Oakes:I think you're constantly chasing something that keeps moving. It's like running after a ball that's going down a hill, right? You just keep chasing and chasing, and chasing and chasing. Are you ever going to catch it? Right? It's like you can't change people, you can't make them stop and see you for who you are. But on the flip side of it, like with your client, it's like why don't people, why is that okay with people, and why don't people want to be with somebody who wants to be with them just as much want to be with somebody?
Cleveland Oakes:who wants to be with them just as much.
Cleveland Oakes:And the time that you waste chasing after things that don't want you, or chasing after situations that don't suit you, or chasing after things that are not invested in you, that is time that you could spend on things or people or situations that really feed your spirit. Right, and you know, once again and I'm going to eventually get to a point where I'm not talking about the recent change that I made in my life, but I can tell you the recent change that I made in my life I'm a hundred percent in right. The people that I work with are a hundred percent for me, right, I am not in any kind of a situation now that I am less that that, that that it is. There is not a less than 100% reciprocity right. So, which brings me to what Jason Pargin said and I know you're not a science fiction person, but this is a great quote that I took from Jason Pargin, and I want you to tell me what this means to you. You should only love the things that can love you back.
Lindsay Oakes:Right. This is kind of like physics. There's like that equal and opposite right. You deserve right. You deserve to that equal and opposite right you, you. You deserve right. You deserve to get what you put out there and you know if you are giving yourself to somebody, they should be giving themselves back to you.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, yeah, a hundred percent Right. And so that, once again, as we said, that's either in a relationship or work, or even in family. You know, there's this obligation, that people feel that they need to be obligated to things and, once again, there is nothing wrong with looking out for yourself in many circumstances.
Lindsay Oakes:Right, but then on the flip side of it right, cause I have a couple of friends who have been single for a long, long time on the flip side of it is, like you know, you've got to also do the work on yourself so that you can find a relationship, because you don't have to say no to everything and everybody because of your own stuff. Sometimes you do have to compromise and you know, I mean, there's a lot of compromise in relationships. So you have to realize this is what you were saying before there's someone for everybody, but and and the thing about the soulmates, right, because yeah, it's, relationships are work, they're work, you're not. You know you do have to compromise. You do have to constantly communicate. Things are not always going to be a hundred percent the way you want them to be.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, and, and, and, and, and and. To your point, I just want to add, because there is even something more serious than a soulmate, which is a twin flame, and I have a friend of mine that believes in beyond soulmates or twin flames. Well, this person's my twin flame, but even if somebody is your soulmate or your twin flame, you still need to. What do you need to do to keep a fire burning?
Lindsay Oakes:You still have to put some wood on the fire, you have to put logs on, you have to, you know, tend to it, you have to take care of it. And that's the thing that happens in relationships. We get so absorbed with what we want and we often don't think about the way that we communicate with our partners, the things that come out of our mouths, how our behaviors impact them, right Cause it's. I mean, I think about it in regards to you know, let's talk about a family situation for a minute. Right, like there's somebody in your family who, every time you call, has to start the conversation with how wonderful her relationship is, and it's like, dude, we didn't even ask. Like you know, you have to be able to, like, read the room, read the signs and just communicate with people.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, yeah, a hundred percent agree. Um, I want to move on from relationships a little bit to work, which is another thing, is another area where people feel undervalued, especially undervalued. Right, you know a lot of jobs, a lot of our friends are work that still work in corporate or work work in other areas, work in these places that the jobs are forcing them to come back. Uh, work in these places that the jobs are forcing them to come back. What? Uh, five days a week? Yeah, you know, I know Amazon recently announced much to the chagrin, and you know, uh, to many of the folks that we work with and that work for my and we.
Cleveland Oakes:And we know a lot of folks that work for various companies, um, that they were like, wow, my company would never, would never do this. This is, this is insane. Yet, where we spend the majority of 80% of our time I don't want to start throwing out numbers, but where we start. For those of us that work outside of the home, the majority of our time is spent outside the home, right, and and the majority of it is spent at work.
Lindsay Oakes:Right If you think about the like the day, right? It's like I said to a parent a couple of weeks ago when she told me the kid watches six hours of TV a day. And I was like your kid is two, so if he sleeps 12 hours and then he gets up in the morning and he has breakfast and then he watches TV, and then he has lunch and he plays a little and watches TV, and then he takes a nap and he watches TV, Like what else is he doing all day? Right, it's the same as work. You go to work and you're there. If you're there from nine to five, you I mean you were leaving the house to go to work early so you can work out before work. It literally eats up the entire day and you have no time for yourself. So if you're going to work in a situation like that, have a career that you love in a place that you don't mind going.
Cleveland Oakes:What happens to it, folks, when they feel unappreciated, unfulfilled in their jobs?
Lindsay Oakes:Well, they take it out on everyone else, but you, you know, often they don't leave the job. That's what I see in counseling is, and I say to people too if you go somewhere and it's unfulfilling and you hate your job every single day, you're not screaming at the people at work, you're coming home and you're taking it out on the people who love you and the people that you are good enough for, and that gets old yeah, yeah, um.
Cleveland Oakes:The impact extends far beyond their daily work tasks and, like you said, it affects their emotional and mental and even their physical well-being. I can say this right In my professional life I got to a point where I just was like I was burned out, right, and I was getting to a level of disengagement because it was like no matter what I did for it's wrong these certain people or certain person, it was just wrong.
Lindsay Oakes:And even when it was right, it was still wrong.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, and we had a saying in the office that when you're right you're wrong, and when you're wrong you're wrong, and that is nowhere to be right. Who wants to be in a in a in a situation where you don't get validation and I'm talking about work? But if we could still go back and apply it to a relationship, why should you be in a situation where your partner tells you that you're wrong all of the time, where all of the feedback, or 60 to 70% of the feedback that you get, is negative?
Lindsay Oakes:Correct, Absolutely and that. But that's something we've also talked about before and I say this all the time is that we don't live in a culture or society where people actually praise you for a job well done. They only only criticize you for the mistakes you make, and the mistakes probably wouldn't feel as bad to people if there was some praise for a job well done as well, yeah, let me share some data with you.
Cleveland Oakes:just on on that. Oh, you love your data. Oh yeah, here you go. Well, you need data to prove that. We're just not making stuff up, you know, but according to a 2021 Gallup poll, 85% of employees who were surveyed were not engaged or actively disengaged at work. Right, this is a. This was a really startling statistic, and disengaged workers often resulted from as the study showed, from poor recognition. Right, poor as a result, poor recognition. What do you think about that? Isn't that a really high number of folks to be disengaged? Absolutely.
Lindsay Oakes:And then that's where mistakes happen, and then people get themselves into more trouble.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, yeah. A 2020 study from the occupational health and psychology found that job dissatisfaction was strongly associated with anxiety, depression and burnout. It's particularly when employees felt powerless or trapped in their roles.
Lindsay Oakes:Well, I think most people feel powerless and trapped in their roles in corporate America. There's very few people who I speak to that work in a corporate environment, that just love what they do. Yeah.
Cleveland Oakes:And should your relationship feel like that, so I'm going to go back and bring it back to a relationship for a second. How many folks have you talked to that they feel, you know, burnt out, anxious and depressed in a relationship.
Lindsay Oakes:Well, very many, because most people listen. All these people wouldn't be in couples therapy if their relationships were going well.
Cleveland Oakes:Right, right, right, but it's just so crazy. And one of the things that's crazy to me is why can't we all to to quote the famous Rodney King in on this topic is why can't we all just get along? What, what, what, what, what? What do you think is the problem, People?
Lindsay Oakes:can't get along because they're so set in their own views and they don't work on themselves so they're not open to other people's views. And it's not about having to like accept that other people have different opinions, but it's just respecting that other people can live peacefully with their own contentment and their own viewpoint on things.
Cleveland Oakes:So what is it? And I want to ask you a question. I'm gonna go a little off script here, because you know I've encountered this and it's a question that I've always asked and I've never been able to successfully get the answer to. You know, like in my, in my situation, where I worked at, there was really just particularly one individual who was very miserable, who who stirred the pot and really made everybody in that space miserable. Sure did, I wasn't going to say anything to identify. Sorry, but also in relationships, it's true, though.
Lindsay Oakes:And she knows who she is too, because I can guarantee you, her marriage isn't very good.
Cleveland Oakes:But also in relationships, there always seems to be one individual over the other. That is the person that is the problem right In psychotherapy. We call that person the identified patient. Oh, person that is the problem right inside in psych, in psych, in psychotherapy, we call that person the identified patient.
Lindsay Oakes:Oh who's the identified patient in our marriage?
Cleveland Oakes:nobody, oh, you don't want to start a problem right now. There's no problems to be starting because I am. I am the identified patient.
Lindsay Oakes:That's the only way, no I think that we both have like a mutual respect for each other, and the one thing I tell people is that you can have your life, your partner can have their life, and then you can have a life together.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, but why is it that you think people? Why is that? Okay, so you have. And so what I was going to with what I was saying is why is it that people bring that energy into a situation and they disrupt it? I don't think people are on purpose.
Lindsay Oakes:I think it's a lack of awareness and it's also their own discontentment or a need for control, because the things that you would get, I mean, we're so ridiculous I won't even say them out loud, but the things that would happen in the pictures and the emails that you would get were so ridiculous that it was just like. I mean, I couldn't even believe it would be sent. It's just like. Let me be miserable and make everyone else miserable around me by sending you a picture of a trash can and then asking why there's trash in it. Oh, I don't know. Would you like me to have thrown it on the floor? Instead, Should I put a sign on the bin that says you know what? Don't put the trash in here, Just throw it on the floor. I mean, like what? And that's the kind of stuff that yeah.
Cleveland Oakes:One of your favorite quotes and you used to talk to Tom Huckleberry about it is being an on-purpose asshole.
Lindsay Oakes:Yeah Well, I made that up. It's not a quote. Yeah, it's one of your quotes I said I quoted it from you and I should get a t-shirt that says I'm an on-purpose asshole. Yeah, I call it being an on-purpose asshole. It means that you are just a jerk for the sake of being a jerk, like I used to say that, like you're just doing that just for the sake of pissing other people off. There's something wrong with that.
Cleveland Oakes:Right. So why do you think people come into relationships and jobs and do that?
Lindsay Oakes:Because they're not happy with themselves, because I don't really care what other people do. Like I told you at work, I go to work. I separate myself from the people that I don't want to be surrounded by because of their behavior, because I don't want my name associated with it.
Cleveland Oakes:I do my work and I call it a day yeah, yeah, a 2018 survey taken by or 2018 study by the American Psychological Association, found that unhappy employees are twice as likely to suffer from depression compared to those that find fulfilling work, and prolonged exposure to unfulfilling jobs will lead to chronic stress, which was, which is, you know, I can definitely testify to this high blood pressure, heart disease and what? What did we find in my most recent uh? Physical weakened immune system, you know, and even though and even every week on Sunday.
Lindsay Oakes:Now you have to remind yourself that you're not going back there. I mean, it's been months and you're every week. You're like, oh, I got a little anxious, thinking I had to work tomorrow. Yeah, the Sunday dread Sunday.
Cleveland Oakes:So employees that experience burnout once again feel disengaged, they're cynical and they're disconnected from their job and their colleagues, which leads to which also means they're disconnected from themselves, which leads to a loss of purpose and motivation. How? I want to bring it back to relationship for a second, because you are a really accomplished couples counselor. You've done quite well in that field for yourself. So when we think about that in relationships, how does burnout and how does all of that relationship dissatisfaction impact couples or impact individuals?
Lindsay Oakes:Well, burnout impacts everybody, because it's just that you go into this space of not being able to do anything for yourself or for anybody else. You feel a constant state of like, stress and dread. Think about you on vacation. We hadn't even finished vacation, you were anxious, you were drinking like a pina colada in the ocean and you're having anxiety about returning to work. Right, and nobody should be thinking about that on vacation. I don't ever think about that on vacation because I actually like what I do, so I and I work for myself, so I can enjoy vacation. But you have to. You have to be able to like, be assertive and know what your role is.
Cleveland Oakes:So let me so here's the thing. I think you have to get to a point and I think you would agree with this is that you have to figure out if something is really worth your time. And these are five questions that you should ask yourself if you're in an unfulfilling or partially committed relationship or job. One are you learning or growing? Two are you valued? Three, which is something that you always ask me, is how's your mental health? Four, do your values align Right? And so, if you're in a job, do your values align with the company's values?
Lindsay Oakes:Well, that's something you said when you were leaving your job too, and I said that to you. It's okay if a place doesn't align with who you are anymore.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, yeah, and I said that on my exit interview when they asked me why I was leaving. I was like, oh, this place really just does not align with who I am. But if you're in a relationship, is they're willing to sleep with each other and in some cases we've had seen couples who haven't had sex with each other for years, which is insane to me. But you're willing to breathe the same air, sleep in the same room, sit at the same table, but you will not ever discuss values and it's a crazy when I've had couples fill out those value worksheets that they'll sit and, for the first time in years, realize that, oh snap, we actually don't have the same values people like the status quo and I had that conversation with a couple that I just started seeing a few weeks ago, because he just said I just want it to all go away and I'm like, yeah, but it won't, it can't go away.
Lindsay Oakes:yeah, because it's not going to go away for your wife. Like you have to handle it because it's an issue with your family and that's your job is to handle it. And if you don't handle it, you can't just pretend it went away because there's too much hurt and your wife doesn't feel supported and loved and that's a central part of a relationship. And if she last question is is there, is there potential for?
Cleveland Oakes:positive change. No-transcript.
Lindsay Oakes:But I learned a lesson and I got out once I felt the situation was not going to change. But the problem, I think, with that is that you waited until you hit rock bottom, and that's what a lot of people do. And you have to start to recognize in yourself, like, why wait until rock bottom? Why don't you listen to yourself and, you know, check in with yourself before that?
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, but going, but going toward question five. Is there potential for positive change?
Lindsay Oakes:There's always a potential for positive change. Everybody can communicate and do better. The problem is is that people aren't always willing to change. They don't want to look at their own inadequacies because once you see it, you can't unsee it, and a perfect example is you and me doing work and working with compassionate inquiry therapists and doing our own internal work. Stuff comes up and when it comes up, it's not easy to look at. You start to remember things about your past. You recognize patterns that you have in your life and it can be very sad sometimes, but it can also be the catalyst for change.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah. So when I'm talking about a potential for positive change, I'm just saying before you leave a situation, you should just make sure that you've examined is leaving the right thing. Sometimes dissatisfaction is temporary Right, and I think a lot of times in relationships when dissatisfaction is temporary, people prematurely get out of the relationship. They don't want to do the hard work Right, get out of the relationship. They don't want to do the hard work right.
Cleveland Oakes:The Bible says that marriage is tribulation in the flesh, which means that a relationship is not going to be easy, because being an imperfect person is not easy Sometimes.
Cleveland Oakes:In that case, the dissatisfaction is temporary. I believe if you both have a 100% commitment and even if there are communication issues and Gottman would agree with me is that if you have that 100% commitment and you have that 100% mutual respect, then work through any difficulty. Sometimes the dissatisfaction is temporary. However, if you get to a point where I got to in both my previous marriage and both with previous jobs, where I realized, nah, this ain't never going to change, you know, then it's time to get out. You know, I actually spoke to somebody not too long ago who's still in where I used to work and they were like, yeah, this no longer fulfills me, right? This no longer fills my cup, and it's unfortunate that the country that we live in, you do need money to live, and sometimes, because of that, we have to stay in situations that don't necessarily fulfill us. However, if there's no potential for change, then you need to start looking for ways to get out.
Lindsay Oakes:Yeah, I agree with you, and I have a question for you, though, because this is a pattern in your life, so when are you going to start listening to yourself?
Cleveland Oakes:Well, I listen to myself in that moment, right, and this took you a long time. It took me a long time, but it took me. But you know, here's the thing it took years of psychotherapy. I think I was in psychotherapy for about five, five years. It took two additional longer because I told you I wouldn't marry you if you didn't go Well, seven years. It took two more years on top of that of learning to become a therapist, and even on top of that, I probably still would have stayed in that situation if they hadn't pushed it.
Cleveland Oakes:But, honestly, what made me change my mind or what made me realize to get out of that situation and I talked to our friend Dave about it the other day too it's number one is age. I'm 51 years old and I know what I like and I know what I don't like. But I had sat down with a client just a couple of weeks ago which was about talking about partial commitments. Right In the Bible it says do not give what is holy to dogs and do not throw your pearls before swine. So what Jesus was saying there, quite simply, you know, was do not put yourself in situations that it is not beneficial to you. Right, there's no reason to stay with any situation a marriage, a romantic relationship, a friendship, and for, for, for, for, for, for the love of God, a job. Most definitely, there was no reason to stay in anything that does not love you back.
Lindsay Oakes:Yeah, absolutely, and. But I don't think you would do it the same next time. I think you would do it differently.
Cleveland Oakes:Oh, a hundred percent. I would a hundred percent get out and I would do it differently.
Lindsay Oakes:Right, and it's we have to work on, you know, recognizing those things in ourselves and being able to conquer that fear we talk about that a lot, too, with our own kids is, you know, change is not always going to be easy, and I think you and I were saying it the other day. I was saying it like like there's things that you do that are really hard, right? I said to you, I started working with this nutritionist and she's really been helping me with, like, the menopause and making sure everything that I'm eating is going to align with my goals and with my health. And I said to you it's so much work, it is so much work. And you said it is, it's so much work, it's. You know, it's not easy. You don't just wake up one day and you're healed and everything is fine, and you just decide you're not going to let people take advantage of you and you're just going to quit the job and you're going to, you know, make look at all of your trauma and make all these changes in your life.
Cleveland Oakes:So let me ask you when, as a therapist and somebody was sitting down with you and I know, as therapists you were not allowed to give advice and we shouldn't give advice. But when should a person consider leaving their situation, be it a marriage relationship or a job, for something more fulfilling?
Lindsay Oakes:Well, in regard to a relationship, if you have any doubt at all, you shouldn't be in the relationship, regardless of whether you've done the work on yourself or not. Because if you do the work on yourself and you know if before you even do the work on yourself, if things aren't, if things are at 60% right when you do the work on yourself, it's going to feel like things are at 20%, because the more work that you do, the lonelier you're going to feel in that relationship Because, like I tell clients all the time is, when you do the work, you start to like rise above and you feel like the other person can't catch up with you. The thing is is when that partner is also willing to make the change. You have to give them the opportunity to change and hold space and trust that you know you're going to be able to be connected with them while they're in that process. The problem is is when the one person is so stuck on not changing and in regards to a job, you know you have to assess the situation, assess what your financial situation is, what can you do, what can you not do, and then you can leave based on that. You were lucky because we're able to live on one income for a period of time.
Lindsay Oakes:Most people don't have that, but then I find that with clients right, and those people also stay in those miserable jobs and can't stand it, and then they are constantly complaining about it. So the real answer to that is do the work on yourself right. Recognize what your own strengths are, what you need to work on, heal from your traumas and then make a decision. But in a relationship, never stay If the person is not 100% committed to you, unless you're not a hundred percent committed to them. I mean, if you have like a friends with benefits relationship, fine, but if your goal is ultimately to be in a serious, monogamous, committed relationship that's going to lead to, you know, either cohabitation or marriage and children if that's what you want, then if that expectation is not met from the other person, then it's you walk away from day one.
Cleveland Oakes:Right, and part of what I've come to find in you know, thinking about my own self and both romantic relationships and jobs is when you do not value, when you 100% do not value yourself, when you 100% do not value your time, when you 100% do not value your intelligence, your beauty, you will stay in situations that are 60% a waste of your time.
Lindsay Oakes:Right, but that's because you don't love yourself fully, and so it comes back to that.
Cleveland Oakes:Another thing, especially in relationships, is when you're not in a fulfilling relationship, it leads to cheating, right, the famous.
Lindsay Oakes:It doesn't even always have to be cheating, right. It could just be like the noncommittal person who will, you know, go out and hang with friends and choose other things over you.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, but the famous Patrice O'Neill, who's departed, actually was looking at one of his routines last week and he was like it was a, it was routine on cheating. He was like cheating is for you, it's not for me. I don't want to cheat on you, but I don't want to hurt your feelings because you can't give me a hundred percent of the things that I need, and so when.
Lindsay Oakes:So that is what. Sometimes the person who's cheating should also be able to stand up and walk away and say like, hey, this isn't for me Right. And in that moment the fault with my client is that she pushed the guy to marry him and he went along with it, and now she's upset about his behavior for all these years and he keeps blaming her. And it's just turned. I mean 17 years of conflict. Can you imagine staying with someone for seven years living under the same roof and then, just a year or two ago, she fully bought a house and put his name on the title, and now she's stuck?
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah.
Lindsay Oakes:Right, it's like so you thought after 15 years. It's like you thought you were going to give him the cash and prizes and now he was going to then stay with you because you bought the house.
Cleveland Oakes:People don't change. Well, the interesting thing and I learned this when I was in the hope program many years ago is you would think right and I've sat and talked about this with numerous clients In addition to what you said you would think human nature would be wow, lindsay's a great person Lindsay is is giving and loving it less, less, less. Have a reciprocal relationship, right. But what do most people do when you give, what do? What do they take? They take.
Lindsay Oakes:They take and the thing is it's different than the way Ram Dass would say to give. Ram Dass says that sometimes you know you don't, you just give the gift and the gift back to you is the other person receiving the gift. The problem is it was in your giving 100 percent of the time and the other person's not giving back at all. Right, it's like a reciprocity.
Cleveland Oakes:So if you find yourself in any of those situations, either in a relationship or at work, it's time to really consider leaving right. A Forbes survey from 2022 revealed that 74% of employees actively looking for new jobs cited a lack of appreciation as the primary reason for their change. I think if you were to do that same survey in relationships, the reason why 76% of people are possibly looking for new relationships is because they're not getting what they need. They're not being, they're not appreciated. You know part of his joke. In that routine, patrice O'Neill was saying he's like don't you think it's hard to go mess with a whole nother person to? Maybe they don't like you either, right, or maybe you don't get what it is either.
Cleveland Oakes:So if you are not an on purpose asshole, either at work and you want to keep your employees, or either in your relationship, you need to really check what your level of commitment is as a partner, as a leader. Are you 100 percent in? Are you 100 percent appreciating your partner, even on days where they don't deserve your 100% appreciation? Thank you for always appreciating me, lindsay. Are you a leader who doesn't 100% appreciate?
Cleveland Oakes:I can tell you, at any job that I worked at that the leadership was not good, it's because the leadership mistakenly believed that everybody was there to dick around right, and I can tell you at any job that I worked in is that everybody was there to dick around right, and I can tell you at any job that I worked in is that anybody that was dicking around as me as a manager, you were out of the door. But I can tell you that everybody in that place that I worked at was very much loved their jobs and was committed to their jobs and is still committed to that job. And it's just the leadership there is automatically is coming at people thinking that they're not 100 percent in, because maybe in that leader's mind, maybe they're to your point, maybe they're miserable, maybe they're not 100 percent in, and it's like I said, the thief thinks everybody's stealing.
Lindsay Oakes:Right. Well, you also have to look at people's past traumas and their life experiences, because often when people behave that way, something has happened that makes them right, the driving force in the way that they are. And I talk about this with clients all the time and I tell clients when I have consultations with clients I am going to dig up your past, I'm going to find the skunk that's in your closet. You could tell me it's not there, but believe me, it's going to be found and I'm going to hold it up and I'm going to hang it in front of your face and then we're going to start getting to work. But I'm very clear with my clients that we got to go into two year old you and five year old you and 10 year old you and figure out where this is coming from. And if we don't, then that's not going to work. And that's how I work with my clients and then I give them the out.
Lindsay Oakes:If it's for you, because I have had a client that's like, well, I want CBT and I was like, all right, dude, then I'm not for you.
Lindsay Oakes:Yeah, because CBT is in the here and now. I am not worried about the here and now because you didn't become terrified of being a father and you know, miserable and not being able to speak your mind because of the here and now Right. You became that way because you were a product of, either you know, a tumultuous parental relationships or divorce, or you know not getting the attention and fulfillment that you needed as a child. And those are the things that lead people to who they are today. And the person at your old office honestly, I would love to have her as a client, because I would like love to pull all the skunks out of the closet, because there's no way that that person is happy and content in their life and, at the end of the day, can go to feel good about themselves when they go to bed that they made so many people miserable in the office and if they do, then they have to look at how little control and choice they had in their own childhood.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, yeah, um, as as we're starting to come to the tail end of this conversation, um and we were talking about leaving things um, leaving a relationship, leaving a job is a big decision.
Lindsay Oakes:People leave jobs. I'm interested in you can do the research on this because you love research. I bet you most people don't leave relationships yeah that's funny?
Cleveland Oakes:I don't. I well, I think a lot of people stay in jobs. Right, look at the economy that we work in. Why do you think there's so many people? You know and I'm not ever going to justify a job shooting, or but for you to decide that I'm going to come to this job and shoot everybody up means that we're number one. You are mentally ill, but what kind of pressure was that person feeling?
Lindsay Oakes:Right, but also think about what Gabor Maté says about mental illness that there's really one diagnosis, and one diagnosis alone, and it's post-traumatic complex stress, and that is what leads to all other mental illnesses. Nobody is mentally ill. We are born perfect, yeah. So problem is is that over time, we have experiences in our lives that then lead us to develop into who we are Right. And if someone is sitting there and telling you you are crazy and beating you from day one, then why, as an adult, are you going to be healthy and know how to have interactions and know emotions and identify your emotions and be able to communicate with people?
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, and as I was saying is, leaving a job or a relationship is a big decision, but if signs like persistent stress of lack of recognition or stagnation are strong indicators, you need to look at. These are strong indicators, either in a job or relationship, that change is necessary. Jim Rome, who's a career expert, famously said you don't get paid for the hour. You get paid for the value you bring to the hour. Right, and if your current job doesn't allow you to bring your best value, if your current relationship does not allow you to bring your best value, it might be worth exploring other opportunities.
Lindsay Oakes:Or you have to bring your best value and see how it's received.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, that's what a coach, cindy Neal, if she's still active. Cindy, I hope you're still active. You're out there, um used to say. Sometimes you're in a situation where you have to manage up. And if you can't manage up and if you're, if the job that you're in doesn't allow you to manage up with the relationship or the family you're in, you don't need it doesn't allow you to manage up, then it's time to find yourself a new family, a new situation.
Lindsay Oakes:Yeah, and Trish, my breathwork teacher, always says like if you want to interact with me and I'm up here, then you vibrate up or you vibrate out. Yeah.
Cleveland Oakes:Vibrate up or out. So these are some practical steps for transitioning. You need to evaluate your finances and, like you said, Lindsay, for in our situation, fortunately, we were in a good spot. Where we could, we would. We knew that we'd be okay as I, as I started to transition out, network and upskill and that's another thing that we did is I knew eventually that I wanted to leave, and so I've been networking, I've been upskilling, I've been writing articles, I've been speaking, and those are things that you can go out and do too. Right, you can start establishing your next chapter while you're writing the book that you're in now and also, really and this is quite important seek the help of a professional right. So either go to a career counselor or a life coach or a psychotherapist, somebody who can help you navigate this next step in your life. Lindsay, what are some practical steps that folks can take to avoid half-hearted investments? I'll let you close this one out.
Lindsay Oakes:Well, in regards to your job, right is to, you know, evaluate your financial situation and see where you can cut back and make a change so that you can leave a job. Start looking for other jobs right Network with other people. Find your people. You know we all have to find like-minded people, our own kind of sangha of people who accept us the way we are and who you know have a lot of the same, you know, kind of beliefs and views on things that we have. And also, just work with somebody. I mean, I am always, always, love to do work with people in our child work and to help them, you know, get to the bottom of things and if people really do the work, I can get clients in and out in just two to three months.
Cleveland Oakes:You're all into mindfulness, and so I want to go over these four steps that I have written down to how to avoid half-hearted investments, and I want to ask you, each of the four steps how does self-reflection play a part?
Lindsay Oakes:Well, you have to look at your role in things, because if you have somebody who's not fully committed to you, right what? What are you doing? That's allowing them to continue to be that way and making you stay in the situation.
Cleveland Oakes:How does setting boundaries play a part?
Lindsay Oakes:Well setting boundaries teaches people how to interact with you and how to love you, and you can learn a lot about people by how they respond to your boundaries.
Cleveland Oakes:How about knowing when to walk away?
Lindsay Oakes:Well, that's just that self-reflection piece. When you start to look at yourself and do the work right, the answers come right. And also it's that somatic connection, I think, because a lot of times where we have that somatic piece, we feel it in our body but we ignore it and then our head takes over. So it's, you know, also sometimes get out of your head and more into your body. Yeah, you like?
Cleveland Oakes:to say that one. And lastly, why is it important and if you're in that kind of a situation work, job, work or relationship, family that it's important to invest in yourself?
Lindsay Oakes:Because if you do not practice self-care, you become a menace to society. A quote by Saraswati. Om my meditation teacher Right Practice self-care, take care of you, do things for you.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, I think you're a great example of investing in yourself and really not to talk about the family that much, but one of the amazing things about you is that you decided to take a career path that your family was not invested in Correct and at first, and a lot of us do this right. We take paths that other people choose for us.
Lindsay Oakes:I tried the other path for a short time and it didn't work.
Cleveland Oakes:It didn't work for me so, and what worked was when you invested in yourself.
Lindsay Oakes:And now, because you invested in yourself and you believed very much in yourself, right, yeah, I'm a very strong advocate for the kids too, and that's why I say, when the oldest one was struggling with making that decision with the job, I said he doesn't ask us for money, so he's got to decide what his future holds for him. It has nothing to do with us. And you know now, with the queen mom, because she's doing her college applications, I said she is the only one of all of the children who is applying to college, knowing 100 percent what she would like to do, at least in the near future, and I support that. And I just don't crap on it because I don't. I just I remember being crapped on about it and I remember following what other people wanted me to do, and I think her father is really trying to push her in a different direction, but I got her back.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, because when you believe in yourself, as big Cleve used to say, it's a poor toad that don't croak about his own pond, right? When you believe in yourself and this is different from hubris, right? Hubris is having too much, as the Kruger is the Dunning Kruger effect, where you think you're a subject matter expert and you don't you know, as, as, as my brother used to say, you all into Kool-Aid and don't know the flavor. That's the Dunning-Kruger effect. But investing in yourself is realizing that you are better than the situation that you are in. And when I see somebody and I sit down with somebody and they tell me, hey, this person I was with broke my hand or tore my shoulder blade, or I got written up unfairly in this job, or I go with this and such this and this is unhappened to me unfairly at work, if you stay in those situations, lens, do those P? Are those people really invested in themselves?
Lindsay Oakes:when you stay in an abusive relationship, no, because you're so worried about the other person and you can't be yourself, because I imagine, if one, if somebody breaks a bone one time or injures you one time, you walk around on eggshells every single day, right, right, because you don't know when that person is going to snap. Right, right, and there are millions of that chick, by the way, she needs to leave, but anyway, that's another topic for another day.
Cleveland Oakes:But there are millions of Americans, millions of Americans in corporate America and wrote in families and in relationships that are not invested in themselves and because when that person beats you, either physically, emotionally or mentally in an office, in a relationship, if you believed in yourself right and if you believe that you were worthwhile, you would get the hell out the first time.
Lindsay Oakes:The only place I've ever been where everybody has invested in themselves is on retreat. That is it hands down, because they all spent a lot of money to get there and to do the work. And you know, if you're not going to do the work on yourself, you're not ever going to be content. There's always going to be things that impact you.
Cleveland Oakes:And if you are in an abusive relationship, we know that they're difficult to get out of right.
Lindsay Oakes:It takes, but get help because there is help and there are places to go.
Cleveland Oakes:Yes, and if you're in an abusive relationship at work, if you're in, if you're in a situation at work or in a real or an abusive relationship um, romantically or in a family get help. There are, there are sources for you to get help. It's easy for us to sit up here in our studio, in our recording studio, and tell you what to do. You're the one that needs to live your life. What we are asking you to do is to invest 100% in yourself and once you feel 100% invested in yourself, lindsay, what were you going to say?
Lindsay Oakes:Well, I was going to say just sit and think about why, right? Like I said to my client that day, why do you feel so obligated to this person who treats you so poorly? Right, because, at the end of the day, your mother hated you and he treats you the same way. So it's like almost like a comfortable feeling, right? People get comfortable being in this position and this poor woman just looks so defeated all the time when she comes in no-transcript classmates, uh, really gave that really good observation that he said.
Cleveland Oakes:You know, like that, one of the things that he's, that he's learned is, and it's, and it's not victim blaming, but it's understanding. What role are you playing in a partial investment? Right Is, why are you allowing this partial investment or this victimization, either at the work, in the office or in a relationship, to take place and understanding to your point, lindsay, what is your role?
Lindsay Oakes:Right, and I was once talking to someone who worked with women who were, you know, in like in domestic violence situations. I think she was a counselor in a shelter. You know, in like in domestic violence situations. I think she was a counselor in a shelter and then she said one of the hardest parts was of her job was to help women identify what their role in it was.
Lindsay Oakes:Right, why did I stay so long? What happened to me that I allowed this to occur in the first place and what were the signs that I didn't see? Because I wasn't looking at my own life. And it is a really hard thing because even with something like sexual abuse in children, right, it sounds horrible, but, like, the perpetrators know which children to go after, right, and I think I have a new client who said she knew I think one of her siblings might have been sexually abused, but she tattled on everybody, she said, and so she never had that. And I said because the person watches you and if you are a talker and you're going to tell everybody what's happening, the perpetrator doesn't want to deal with you because they don't want to get caught, right, so they will look at the child who doesn't communicate, who doesn't have the relationship with the parents Right that maybe the parents are not so attentive or supportive and don't really nurture and love the child Right? And so everybody plays a role, no matter if you are the victim or the perpetrator.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, um, I think that's just about it. Uh, Lindsay, do you have any final thoughts?
Lindsay Oakes:No, I don't think so. Okay, so would you like me to? No if you don't, I'll just I'll, I'll, I'll, just I'll. The queen mom is out. I'm having a hot flash, so let's wrap this up and open the windows.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, we'll wrap this up, open the windows or turn on or no, let's save some electricity and open the windows. Um, this episode resonate well, hopefully. We created this episode with the hope that it would resonate with anyone who ever felt undervalued or stuck in a situation where they're giving more than they're receiving, and it was our hope in this episode that, by highlighting practical steps and bringing in expert advice, that we provided the listeners with tools to reclaim their energy and demand the full investment that you deserve, whether in love or in your career. Some resources that we would like you to point to if you want to find out more is the book Attached the New Science of Adult Attachment and how it can help you find and keep- I have that book.
Lindsay Oakes:Hunter borrowed it and never gave it back.
Cleveland Oakes:Never gave it back. I guess he's super attached to it, but he talks about it how to Find and Keep Love by Amir Levine and Rachel Heller. And I also see and it's upstairs on the bookshelf in the library the gifts of imperfection by Brene Brown and it's about self-worth and a lot of books on that shelf, a lot of books in the shelf, and embracing self-worth and embracing invulnerability. Um, there's the therapy chat podcast that you can listen to we always like to promote our fellow podcasters and the career Contessa podcast, and some articles that you can read are in Psychology Today, how to Set Healthy Boundaries in Relationships, and the Harvard Business Review has a great article called why it's Time to Quit your Job If You're Unhappy. And, with that being said, this has been Cleveland and Lindsay.
Cleveland Oakes:And this has been another episode of the Devil, you Don't Know. We ask you very much if you like what you've heard, please rate and review us on iTunes or any other platform that we are found on. And also, hey, like and subscribe Until the next time.
