The Devil You Don’t Know: Marriage, Mental Health & the Patterns That Shape Us
The Devil You Don’t Know is a candid mental-health and culture podcast hosted by married counselors Lindsay and Cleveland Oakes. Through humor, personal stories, honest disagreements, and practical psychology, they uncover the hidden patterns affecting our relationships, identities, families, and emotional lives. From mindfulness and healing to marriage, society, and the everyday messiness of being human, Lindsay and Cleveland explore what it takes to recognize our patterns—and choose something different.
The Devil You Don’t Know: Marriage, Mental Health & the Patterns That Shape Us
Stop Lying to Yourself: A Journey to Self-Honesty and Compassion
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
What happens when you blend the magic of live music with the liberating feeling of breaking free from societal pressures? Join us as we recount our unforgettable summer adventures, starting with a thrilling trip to Nashville. Our escapades were legendary, from rocking out at a Zac Brown Band and Kenny Chesney concert to sharing laughs at Garth Brooks' Friends in Low Places bar. We even muse about the fantasy of endless PTO and living a carefree island life, inspired by Kenny Chesney’s favorite Caribbean hangouts like the Soggy Dollar Bar.
Are you struggling to stay authentic in a world obsessed with conformity? We’ve been there too. Our final discussion tackles the emotional toll of societal pressures and the often-overlooked concept of high-control religious groups. We share insights from Dharma talks and personal anecdotes about stress-induced breakdowns, emphasizing the importance of connecting mind and body for better life decisions. Wrapping up, we stress the necessity of self-honesty and compassion, encouraging listeners to embrace their truths and foster personal growth. Please tune in and join us on this journey towards self-discovery and well-being!
Please email us at Gettoknowthedevil@gmail.com
Endless PTO and Nashville Adventures
Speaker 1This is Cleveland .
Speaker 2This is Lindsay .
Speaker 1And this is another episode of the Devil . You Don't Know , lindsay , tell the folks what we're going to be talking about today , stop lying to yourself . That's a good one . I think you said that to me right before I decided to go into early retirement .
Speaker 1But before we get into today's topic , or endless PTO as you call it Endless PTO into today's topic , or endless pto as you call it , endless pto as as tyler , as kid chance called it , even when he said a couple of months ago when we were in the british virgin islands , he was like man you just stay on vacation he's like what do you ?
Speaker 2got endless pto and I was like now it's a thing , now it's an actual hashtag yeah , and what's funny is , right before we came home on that vacation , you were like I just know something is gonna go down when I get back to work . Oh my God .
Speaker 1Didn't , I Didn't , I call it In the ocean .
Speaker 2I think you might have had a pina colada in your hand .
Speaker 1A prophetic pina colada . Now , if only I could have predicted the lottery numbers with that pina colada . But before we continue that , let's get into what we've been up to . So we missed an episode last week .
Speaker 2We have been really busy this summer and it's actually something that we've said we've always wanted to do was have these really fun , busy weekends . But when you actually do it you realize you're just never home , Never home . So we went for my birthday present out to Nashville so you could see your first real concert of Zac Brown Band and Kenny Chesney at the Nissan Stadium .
Speaker 1We took some endless PTO pictures on the roof of the Virgin Hotel .
Speaker 2Yeah , that was a great time , wasn't it ? So that was fun . We went down to Broadway . We saw everyone that was on a bachelorette party and lots of young drunk people in the middle of the afternoon and it was good .
Speaker 1It was good people watching yeah , nashville's always a fun town , one of my , one of my favorite places . What , what always amazes me about about nashville um , in cities like nashville and nola and memphis , is the amount of talent that you see . There we went to , um , uh , billy ray cyrus's , not billy no , oh my gosh , I just committed the ultimate sin garth brooks bar .
Speaker 2Yeah , yeah , and they had some great live music friends in low places , garth brooks , forgive me that's like not even comparable forgive me , sir garth brooks that's never gonna be on the podcast now he's .
Speaker 1That's it , he's . He's done . He's canceling his subscription as we speak , but we went to Garth Brooks' new bar Friends in Low Places and they had a really talented band .
Speaker 2Very talented band . They sang Dolly Parton , they sang Garth , they sang all the big country stars , but really the highlight of that trip was that awesome concert . Yeah , it was great . I have you to thank for those amazing 12th throwback on the floor . I mean I could see Kenny and Zach their sweat was reaching a few rows in front of us and I just I had a great time just singing and dancing and I got my no Shoes Nation hat .
Speaker 1It was a couple of the other . It was like one of the black guy adjacent from us .
Speaker 2They disappeared , though I think his girlfriend got drunk , yeah , I think they got a little twisted .
Speaker 1And then the other black folks that were there besides me and that fellow were the event staff , and I feel like there was a point in the night where you were being judged . I was being judged . I don't know . I don't know if I'm in the club anymore . I'm not 100 percent sure .
Speaker 2That . Sure , that's very , very funny , but we did . We had a great time . I mean , what a great show . And I loved Kenny Chesney . I mean , my God , at 56 years old , the energy that that man puts out on the stage . I thought , god , I don't think the no Shoes Nation and I think the cool thing about it is we've been to almost every single one of those beach bars in the Caribbean that he kind of frequents .
Speaker 1Yeah , I was surprised that we weren't actually in any of the pictures .
Speaker 2That was done and that was because you don't let me stay long enough . But I do have to say that I'm always always hoping we run into Kenny down there and I do think one day it'll happen , because he's always just kind of sails into these places and motors in and just hangs out like he's normal people , I feel like we were in Tipsy's in Anagata .
Speaker 1They had said that he might have just passed through , maybe a couple of weeks or not . That long before before them , right Right Before the tour started , I think , they had said yes , I think so .
Speaker 2Well , because he lives in St John , he has this massive villa and he is always with Leon , our friend , the bartender at the Soggy Dollar . He's always there . I guess he's been to Tipsy a few times , Cowrick Beach Bar , he's just .
Speaker 1I mean , you know , I guess if you were , you know multimillionaire and spent most of your life on an island and could get around via boat and money was not an object . I'm sure you'd probably be at those places too , all the time , well as my , as my friends back when I used to work at FedEx . My friends from Jamaica would say soon come . So you know , so you don't know yet . That day , that day , may be rapidly approaching .
Speaker 2I do hope so . I keep , I keep trying to just slide into your inbox with some job opportunities in the Caribbean . Well , I mean , I will take one for the team and I will go live in the Caribbean . Every time I say that , you laugh like I don't really want to live there .
Speaker 1So let's talk about that for a second . Laugh like I don't really want to live there . So let's talk about that for a second , you know ? So I quit my job , which is something that you've wanted . We've all wanted it for a while . I think my job wanted it at one point . Then they realized like , oh snap , oh snap . We , we really didn't want this . Hey , are you sure ? But we'll talk about that another time .
Speaker 1So so I do that , I feel his great weight come off me . And then immediately you're like hey , my good friend , sir Richard Branson has an opportunity for you on his private island . Do you , can you ? Do you think you want to apply ? Was that what it was ? Where's in ? Where's his private ?
Speaker 2island in the British Virgin Islands . It happens to just coincidentally be in my favorite island chain ever and Peter Island Resort is also there where I'm trying to get you to take that job , because you know they said we'd have to live on Peter Island , I know that would be terrible for me , but I would be willing to take one for the team and live in a home with you on the resort's property . I would totally do it .
Speaker 1Yeah , I know you . I mean , this would be a huge sacrifice .
Speaker 2I mean it would be really . I mean it would be awful for me to have to just be in my favorite place with someone else paying for my accommodations while you work there . Well , listen , horrible , it sounds awful , right .
Speaker 1Sir Richard , if you're listening to the show .
Speaker 2And the job is still available on Necker Island . Cleve is your man .
Speaker 1Yeah , necker Island , you know , Lindsay's had me put in an application .
Speaker 2Also , we started the State of the Virgin and we had to , and you did some of your own hospitality work , did some of my own hospitality While you were there , cleaning up what the housekeeping didn't clean .
Speaker 1You were there cleaning up what the housekeeping didn't clean , yeah , but it was great . But , that being said , it still was a great establishment . It was a great hotel .
Speaker 2I would definitely go back there . Let's talk a little bit about the vegan scene in Nashville . Yeah , it's good . Oh it's great . I don't understand why it is so hard here to go to places and have vegan options on the menu . Not everybody wants to go to a 100% vegan restaurant . When we go out with friends , they don't want to do that , so it's annoying that there's so few places that have that . But then you go to somewhere in the South and it's not hard to find
Breaking Free
Speaker 2vegan food .
Speaker 1No , you're absolutely right . That's absolutely right .
Speaker 2Right , I mean we went to the Fox Cocktail Club a couple of times . That's one of our favorite places . And then another plug here for Rebel Cheese , because we love Rebel Cheese but they sell a vegan charcuterie with Rebel Cheese . And then the Beehive seitan , like sausages and pepperonis and things , and that's that local Nashville company that we actually , I think , went to the Beehive , yeah , we went to the Beehive Deli after and had like a little dinner and but I mean there's just a lot of vegan food .
Speaker 1in nashville there's whole vegan restaurants yeah , no , and it's surprising because nashville is the home of hot chicken .
Speaker 2Yes , we didn't go there this time , but the southern v is a vegan restaurant that does like the vegan hot chicken and biscuits and things like that . But you know , we've both been kind of on a health kick , so I was eating the Sir Richard's avocado toast , oh yeah .
Speaker 1At the .
Speaker 2Virgin and some Brussels sprouts when we went to the pool and so .
Speaker 1So , Sir Richard , even though we got sidetracked , if you're listening , if you're listening , Lindsay made me apply to go to work with you .
Speaker 2But if you don't any longer have that position open and can put a word in for us on Peter Island , that would also be acceptable . And Little Dick's Bay , I mean really Anywhere , anywhere . We are your people . I could even like work , like help out , and I wouldn't even charge Just because I would just be living there and I wouldn't even charge Just because I would just be living there and I'd be so happy . You never know , somebody may take us . I like to be barefoot all year .
Speaker 1Somebody may take us up on the offer If you need some podcasters that also do mental health counseling and also know a little bit about facilities .
Speaker 2Remember in Tortola we would go out for dinner and you'd be like you're not going to wear your shoes out of the room . And I'd be like , no , I don't wear my shoes when I have to go through sand . So we would just go to dinner in restaurants and I wouldn't even take my shoes . I was just in my bare feet for two weeks and I was so happy .
Speaker 1But that you were connected to the earth . But before we go too far field , you know , let's jump in today's topic , right , Part of it was funny , right . So I , you know it was funny , right , so you know , and I'll start , and eventually I'll talk about it in greater detail . But I'll start this off by saying what made you come up with the idea of this show was the fact that I quit my job , and it was . And what did you say when you ?
Speaker 2And so what's crazy about quitting my job is , you know , so many people who knew me and I guess knew me better than myself were like congratulations , right , and I've said this to you for years right , you become a slave to some place and they don't treat you the way that you treat them , and so I think , when we were talking last week , I said to you that the big shift was that you just stopped lying to yourself .
Speaker 2Yeah , that's what you said , you said I was talking to Trish and I was telling her and we talked , we were talking about how amazing it is Right when you actually stop lying to yourself because you , you know , you just kind of start to take risks . You know it's like you get to this point where you just become fed up . And when you're fed up , it's time for a change , right .
Speaker 1But you have to get to that point of being completely fed up . So it seems like and as counselors , we've met people and part of it and a lot of the main reason why people come to us is because they have maladaptive thinking , right , they have incorrect thinking , they have , as you just said , self-deception , and in my case , the self-deception that I had led myself to believe was that I needed this job , I need this certain amount of money , I need this certain amount of status .
Speaker 2Right and also like oh , they need me right , this company cannot possibly function without me . So you know what ? No-transcript . Sudden , the scales tip in the direction of fed up and it's too much . I've had enough .
Speaker 1And so were you so in the reference of my job . That was it . I no longer wanted to tell myself that deception , that the pain had become so great of that particular place . For me , you know and I'm not because I don't really want to crap on it , but for me the pain of working there and the have become so great . I decided at that point I couldn't lie to myself anymore .
Speaker 2Right , you were just not happy and for once with you , I think you were like oh , I'm just going to kind of follow my heart here , which is hard for you , because I think a big role that you play is like the provider and the caretaker and the head of the family , and you were just like I don't want to do this anymore . I don't like this . You know , yeah , I can put up with it , but every day I'm miserable and I keep doing more and it's never enough .
Speaker 1So when you sit down with a client , or if I were to come to you and it's not necessarily about my job , but something in my life that I am trying , like I sat down with someone once oh , I have an answer for this .
Speaker 2A while ago I'm excited . I talk about this all the time with clients Carry on . You know where I'm going to go .
Speaker 1And this person . I'm talking to them and talking about their day and they're telling me how they have a concussion and a migraine , and the entire time that they're telling me this , they're smiling , and I was like had to stop and say to this person like whoa , whoa , whoa , like what's going on here ?
Speaker 2Like there's a you're telling me oh , I do that all the time with clients , right , they're like , they talk about like horrible things that happen in their life , but that's a just , that's a um , what Gabor Mate would call . That is like an adaptive strategy , right , you find it . You start to laugh and then you don't feel the pain , right , or that's a distraction from the pain , right ? A lot of times clients will say to me , and I'm sure to you too , like oh my , I know this probably sounds crazy , you don't even believe me . And I'm like nah , I believe you . I believe you , cause like , people are crazy . And when you talk to people , you learn just how crazy other people are . Right . And when your clients come and they have been treated a certain way or something's happened to them , and you're like nah , I do , I believe you .
Speaker 1And it's not that just people are crazy . It's like we're people too , so that we've had quote unquote crazy scenarios in our our , in our own lives , right , and I think we've one of the things that that have made us both become therapists . Is there aspects of our lives where we decided to stop lying to ourselves ?
Speaker 2Yeah , oh , absolutely One hundred percent . But I am a very big believer in following my truth , no matter how uncomfortable it makes everyone around me . I know that it makes you uncomfortable when I , just you know , stray off the really comfortable path .
Speaker 1Yeah , but here's the thing right the fact that you helped me see , that you kind of helped me pull back the matrix of self-deception , has made me more comfortable about taking risks , and I think that's right because you're totally fine and you , you came from a place where you , your whole identity , was around work .
Speaker 2And you know , I said to you just , I think , yesterday . I don't even know what to do with you right now because , like you're this calm version of yourself and I've , in eight years of being together , I've never had that version of you , except when we're on vacation , which is just kind of chill , laid back , but then the day before we go back you're high , strong and ready to go again . And now I have this version of you every day . Who's just kind of quiet . You wake up , you go through the motions of the day You're not rehashing things and retelling me things that happened a hundred times , trying to figure out why it didn't work out the way that you thought it would or the way that the office wanted it to , and so I get the best version of you every day . But I think in the beginning it was very uncomfortable for you .
Speaker 1And I think that goes with self-awareness , and it's something that you always tell me and it's something I'm blissfully aware of . That I am also blissfully unaware . Aware of that , I am also blissfully unaware . So explain to me and explain to the audience how self-awareness is the first part of overcoming self-deception .
Speaker 2Well , how do you feel , Right ? I mean , that's the first part , Not only what are you thinking and what's going through your head , but where is the connection in the body ? Because I'm sure , and you can answer this , but when you were ready to make this change , I am sure a hundred thousand things were going through your head just replaying and replaying and replaying . Like can I , can I , how can I stay here ? What can I do ? Can I maintain both ? Maybe I could do something different and make it last a little bit longer , right ?
Speaker 1Yeah , well , actually , because you've put me on to Compassionate Inqu inquiry and because I had just done a compassionate inquiry session with this new coach , that is true . That is true In Canada , jason Bruce I was aware of what was going on in my body . And because I was aware of going on what was going on in my body , when I sat down and had that initial meeting , the first thing I did was like , oh , I'm getting ready to resign because because those sessions and going through the Gabor Mate's process made me more aware and just lightly going through his process made me more aware of what I was feeling and I wasn't even going to deceive myself with rehashing and rehearsing .
Speaker 2Right , because we become so lost in the thinking that we start to disconnect from our own self . We're so disconnected from what is actually going on internally and we're so lost in the thinking that we start to disconnect from our own self . You know , when I , when you started to talk a little earlier , I thought you were going to ask me what I say to people . And when clients come to me and they're telling me about job issue situations and relationship situations and I have to do this and I have to do that , sometimes I say to them well , whose voice is telling you that ? Is that your voice telling you that ? Or is that someone else's voice saying to you oh well , this is what you have to do ?
Speaker 2Right , these are the next natural steps in life , because I know in my own life and I know my dad hates when I talk about them , but there was a lot of pressure to go and do something that made a lot of money . And you go to college , you get out , you get married , you have a family and these are the things that you do . And so a lot of things I did in my early adulthood were not what I wanted to do , but what the other voices around me told me to do .
Speaker 1And I think that's a common experience for a lot of folks , because think of the Janet Jackson song Control Got my own life . Got got to make my own . Scott , now get to make my own decisions . Right , are you familiar ? No , I saw you , oh my God . Sometimes I think Lindsay is the friends and I think Lindsay is a Russian spy .
Speaker 2Because , my gosh , everybody gets on me , even my clients . Well , have you seen this ? Have you seen ? No , I , I don't , I don't , I am . Well , you know , I'm also like off of like a six , seven day silent retreat right now that I did from home .
Speaker 1Yeah , which we didn't talk about , but when ?
Speaker 2we record .
Speaker 1Next we'll talk about the silent retreat .
The Path to Self-Discovery
Speaker 2I am a person who likes to be present . I do not like TV , I do not like social media , I don't even really like to socialize that much , and I think it's because it's really hard for me to find like-minded people . So it feels sometimes like it's a job for me to interact with people . Um , but you know , it's yeah .
Speaker 1I , I'm just like I can't , I don't know anything and I don't watch anything , and so that was just a you know a preface to me , not knowing another thing that you're asking me if I've ever seen , but we'll play the song later on , later on for you . But there's but it . But it goes back to what you're saying . Right , janet Jackson had that song Control , and it was about her parents , because Janet Jackson , like me , grew up a Jehovah's Witness , which was a high I wasn't aware of that .
Speaker 1Yeah , which was a high control . That sure is . I'm not going to call it a cult , but it is as many Orthodox religions are . It's a high control group .
Speaker 2Well , let's say what I learned last week . So we have these Dharma talks every evening , I think 8 or 8 , 15 for an hour , and one of the people leading the Dharma talks one night said who looks outside dreams and who looks inside awakens Right . And so people attach to those religious beliefs and those organizations because they give them some hope of a better life or a different situation , when reality all you need is inside of you .
Speaker 1Yeah , yeah , and so it sounds like what you're saying . To keep it on , on , on . On point of what we're talking about is that knowing yourself better helps you with better decision-making .
Speaker 2Absolutely . And also being able to write the whole idea of this podcast is like the really difficult path to in to your authenticity , and so you know you have to be able to connect between the mind and the body and just say you know what ? Like , rationally , like , OK , I feel like I need to stay here because of this and this and this , but then you're like everything about your body is telling you differently and you're ignoring it .
Speaker 1Yeah , and I want to speak to that right , because I actually talked to a coworker that worked at the same company as I , that left under a similar circumstance as I did , and the first thing that person said to me was an exact some hey , are you back ? Are you back working again ? And like absolutely not , because my blood pressure and my anxiety went way down . So when I think about the dangers of living in a state of denial , which a lot of people do , a lot of people is . A friend of mine , a great friend of mine , val Nichols , used to always say people like being prisoners of comfort , right , and so I know I'm in this terrible situation , but I do not want to get out of it because the lie that I'm telling myself is the lie that works for me .
Speaker 2Right , well , you become comfortable in that feeling , right it's . You know people don't know what to do . Then , when you're the victim for a lot of your life , when you're raised in religious households like this , when you , you know , whatever your set of circumstances is , you don't really know how to connect with yourself and how to listen to yourself , and you don't know how to be anything but the victim you finish is I've had several folks that I've sat and talked to in the past that are in the States and I'm looking at them and I'm like , bro , like you are adding so much stress on their lives .
Speaker 1And I've had several people that I've sat and talked to tell me hey man , I was just sitting down and all of a sudden I just started crying and I was like that's because your body is telling you you are under a lot of stress .
Speaker 2Well , it's what happens , is it's those moments when you get out of your head , right , because what happens ? And you do this because I'm a crier , you know me . I could , like , look at you and you'll be like , are you OK ? And I'll be like , no , right . But you get a little teary eyed and then you're able to suck it up and wipe it off and go , okay , okay , all right , right . So it's like there's something sometimes happens when you start to suppress and suppress , and suppress and suppress , and then all of a sudden you sit there and there's nothing else going on , and then where else is it going to go ? But come up .
Speaker 1Right , yeah , I actually sat down and said to somebody cause Jay-Z has a song called cry um , where the lyric is I can't believe . I couldn't feel the tears coming out my eyes , so I had to make the song cry and basically what he was saying is that you know that I would rather be deceived , or I would rather live this lie and make the song cry than for me to to feel the emotion .
Speaker 2Right . Think about a like a pail Right , if you keep filling it , or even a glass , you just keep pouring water and pouring water , and pouring water . Eventually , what's going to happen ?
Speaker 1It's going to overflow .
Speaker 2Right , and so it's . That's the same thing . You can only push down and push down and push down emotions so much before . Right , I mean , the body keeps the score . Is that book by Dr Bessel van der van der Kolk or something ? Right ? It's like eventually it becomes too much , right , and then your body , like you , can't hold it anymore . Right , and so if you think about that , you hold in and you suppress , and you suppress and you suppress and then there's just this overflow . You get to a point where you just can't take it anymore . Right , people have like psychotic or mental breakdowns . Right , people go and do what you and I do , which is , you know , for years we'd work , work , work , work , work and then go on vacation and just collapse . Right , I mean , it's like not normal to work yourself and grind , grind , grind , grind , grind and then all of a sudden go away and start sleeping 14 hours a day and then coming back and doing it again and you know we've done that on many occasions .
Speaker 2Yeah Right , but at some point your body and your mind get in alignment .
Speaker 1It was , yeah , I could say , when we were in Barbados , we were crashing . We were crashing out like in sleep and easily 14 , 12 hours and waking up refreshed . I listen since I stopped , since I chose to stop lying to myself about that . I need and here's the thing not everybody's in the in a position and and Colleen talked about it two weeks ago , um , but not everybody's in honestly in a position where they can just up and quit Right . Unfortunately , I'm in a good financial position where I didn't have to live this lie for myself anymore . Um , so I don't want to sit here and just give you the bad advice to be like hey , if you got two bucks in the bank , quit that job at McDonald's . Or if you're a corporate banker , you know , make sure that you have the circumstances first , but if you're living a lie , start thinking about how you can get out of the lie .
Speaker 2Absolutely , because I say to clients all the time , like you can keep coming here every single week , but if you're never going to change anything , then why do you think you're going to feel better ? Right , you just need to sometimes change things , and I've been known to tell clients too , when they say , oh , therapy doesn't work for me , and I have to tell them , like why ? Because I don't come and hold your hand and take you to have difficult conversations and make challenging choices . No , it's because you are really stuck in this place of being the victim and not being able to make a change , and when you know we're going to talk about this in a future episode too no-transcript no , I don't .
Speaker 1And then you're going to make fun of me again , I'm just teasing , but when it's the choice between the red and the blue pill , a lot of people would rather live the lie . I can't remember the character in the movie the Matrix , but there was a character that was like , and for those of you who are familiar with that movie , it turns out that humans , that the real world is not real and humans live in a simulation . That's a lie . And then the first movie , the character that was the betrayer , was like I would rather eat the fake steak and live in the fake mansion and live in the painful real world .
Speaker 1And part of that and part of the reasons why people early terminate is you start peeling back those layers and they don't want to look at the truth of what it is . I sat down with a person some time ago and asked them , you know , like why were they avoiding therapy and why were they avoiding like some other things in their life that they could fix or that they could take a look at ? And they were like because they didn't want to see . The truth of themselves is literally the answer back .
Speaker 2Yeah , but I think that's a lot of people Right .
Embracing Self-Honesty and Compassion
Speaker 2I mean , can you relate ?
Speaker 1Oh yes , I can relate to that Sometimes it's trash to see the truth .
Speaker 2Right , absolutely , because then it just it hurts more . Right , it's better to just be the victim and be oblivious , ok , so let's move on to the power of .
Speaker 1Why'd you say OK , like that ? Oh , because I was like , you know , it came out out loud . No , but maybe I'll edit it . I probably won't because I'm too lazy , but I was like it was okay , in agreement , like okay . So I just want to move on to the power of self-honesty and how . So we've defined the problem . Now let's talk about how we can fix the problem . What is your definition of someone who is honest with themselves ?
Speaker 2I think , to be honest with yourself is that you're , you know , constantly reflecting and listening to yourself and doing the things that you know feed your soul and make you feel good .
Speaker 1Yeah , and I also have . I think it's also being able to acknowledge where you're weak at , absolutely , and where you're strong at . I think a lot of times , people only want to look at where they're strong at , but it's really more importantly to acknowledge where you're strong at . I think a lot of times , people only want to look at where they're strong at , but it's really more importantly to acknowledge where you're weak at .
Speaker 2Well , where you could use support Right .
Speaker 1Yeah , yeah , I totally agree . How does ? How does being self-compassionate help ?
Speaker 2Well , I always say to I always tell my clients to be kind to themselves . Well , I always say to I always tell my clients to be kind to themselves , and that's kind of similar , because it's you know , I had this moment this week actually , and I think that kind of speaks to what you're asking me is don't really approve of it , but I , you know , it is okay for me to not approve of it and it's okay for me to cry about it and feel sad about it , right ? So , like I'm being honest with myself , like I'm not okay with it , but I'm , it's also okay to not be okay with it , yeah , and I don't really have to try to control it or try to change his mind . I can just sit with my feelings and just say you know it is okay to feel this way and you know that was a big moment for me this week .
Speaker 2I told you during the meditation is , you know , this is just how I feel right now and it is okay because you know I mean , of course , right , it could come back and really backfire on him or he could be successful in either way . I couldn't have done anything to change it . So I just sometimes you just have to say like it's OK to not be OK , it's OK to be sad or angry and it's OK to just sit in this and , like , feel what comes up with it .
Speaker 1And that made me think of something . Right , because I think of one of the biggest lies that we tell ourselves is that I could have made a difference . Right , if only I would have done this or said this or done this . But a lot of times and it goes back to our episode , that one of our early episodes that we did is even God has the devil . Sometimes a person is going to do what they're going to do , or a circumstance is going to turn out how it's going to turn out , irregardless of what you did or did not do . That does not mean you do not try , but it also means as Lindsay , as you like to tell me is , do not rehearse and rehash .
Speaker 2Yeah , right , don't ? You don't have to keep replaying what happened in your mind and keep like rehashing it , and you also don't have to sit there and rehearse all the things that you're going to say or do should somebody come back and talk to you or somebody ask you a question .
Speaker 1Especially if it's a , especially if it's a maladaptive thought or maladaptive thing or a lie in your life .
Speaker 2And also when you sit there and you rehearse , and you rehearse , and you rehearse . Are you actually being you , or are you once again telling people what they want to hear ?
Speaker 1Right right , right right . And how is self-honesty related to a good mental hygiene ?
Speaker 2Well , I mean , when you're honest with yourself , I think you tend to feel better overall , Right ? So you know , and the thing thing is , when you feel better , your mental health is better , Right ? When and that's it goes back to what I was saying earlier is that if you're never willing to change anything or look at the circumstances in your life and say , hey , I'm going to try something different , then you're never going to feel better .
Speaker 1Yeah , and James , chapter one , chapter one , 23 and 24 . Cause , you know , I like to take it to church . You always love to take it to church . Yeah , take it to church . Star Trek , peloton and X-Men .
Speaker 1Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like someone who looks at their at his face in the mirror and , after immediately looking at himself , goes away and forget what he looks like , right . And so for me , that's a metaphor for someone who is deceiving themselves Because , like I sit down with clients and tell , hey , don't lie to me . Like there's no reason to lie to me because I'm the mirror , right , I'm not here to judge you , I'm not here to tell you what you're doing wrong . Like I sat down with my supervisor the other day and I was like here's the thing is , it's not for me to judge if a person is doing something weird . It may be weird to me , but does it work for you ? You may think it's , you know . You may think it's weird that you know that I eat tofu , but it works for me . You love tofu , I love tofu .
Speaker 2People think it's weird that I eat tofu , but it works for me . But it doesn't matter if something is weird to someone or not , and you know that's also a part of being honest with yourself .
Speaker 1Yeah , but the important thing is , look , when you look at a mirror or when you sit down with a and you get feedback from someone . It is not because you don't feedback from a , from a , from a , from a supervisor , from a spouse , from a counselor . It is not because they are trying to judge you . They're trying to help you break you out of the lie right and help you see what your image is and your true self-reflection .
Speaker 2Well , and I think also , I'm very clear with my clients , and you probably are too , and if your therapist is not clear with you , then you need a new therapist . I tell my clients I'm not healed . I'm not healed . I still work on myself , I still change things , I still try new things . I'm just more confident in it . You know , and then I once was yeah yeah , yeah .
Speaker 1So that's a good point . I want to , just as we come out to our close . I had some , I had some . I had some quotes here that I pulled , and some of my favorite . This one is from Carl Jung , which is the privilege of a lifetime is to become who you truly are . What do you think about that ?
Speaker 2I love that . I was thinking , you know , also , another thing that they were saying on this retreat this week was may all beings live in peace . Right , and I think when you live in peace , you truly are right , being who you truly are like . When you are who you are , you're very content , right , and with that contentment comes peace , and I think of that all the time . Right Is it really is true . Right , it is a privilege to be able to say this is what I want to do and this is how I'm going to execute it , and everyone's going to support me or not , but I'm still going to do it anyway . Right , it is , I feel very like , very privileged myself that I get to work the way that I do make the you know , you know the income that I make and to , every day , be able to choose Am I going to work today ? Am I not going to work today ? Should I work tomorrow ? Should we take a week and go away ? What should we do ? But you know a lot of people don't have that opportunity .
Speaker 1Yeah , Another quote that I want to . Maybe we'll probably wrap it up here , but I really because I think there's really nothing more to really say , and I think this surmises everything that we talked about . Jordan Peterson said this if you betray yourself , if you say untrue things , if you act out of a lie , you weaken your character . I like that , Don't you think most of the people ? You weaken your character .
Speaker 2I like that , don't you think most of the people that you used to work with in corporate America had very weak characters ?
Speaker 1No comment .
Speaker 2There you go . You don't have to comment on it because I think it's pretty much a given right , but it's true right , because most people are living a lie . How many people do you ? Walk up to every single Oaks ? You'll see some of the blogs that .
Speaker 1I've written , but I actually just wrote a column on being authentic and the importance of , and how knowing yourself plays into authenticity . So many of us and you had a quote , and we'll talk about it in the next episode that I that we're going to do , which is going to be on narrative therapy and the art of self-authoring , but what is it about to live the dharma of another ?
Speaker 2Right . Well , you know your dharma is sort of your path . And so they say it's better to live your own dharma poorly than the dharma of another . Well , the dharma of another , you know , invites great danger . And so you live your path , no matter what the result of your choices are . If it's what you wanted to do , even if it didn't work out , it's your path . But when we're constantly living right , what I was saying earlier , right , whose voice is that ? When we're living through the voices of others right , we really like lack that contentment and peace . And you know that's what the great danger is that they talk of in the Bhagavad Gita . Right , when you live according to the way that other people tell you you should live , or other people are living right , you're not really content , you're not satisfied with your life and with yourself .
Speaker 1So , as we wrap , what are some actionable tips that you think would help some of our listeners If I was a client of yours and I said hey , you know what ? Thanks , you know , we're summing it up what you know , but what are some things I can do to help myself stop living this life ?
Speaker 2Well , what I work with clients on a lot is , you know , identify when negative thinking is coming up . Who's telling me that ? Is it me or is it someone else ? Also , you know journal , right , what are your goals ? Create a vision board , which we talked about with Colleen , right , where do I want to be so that we can look at how to get there ? That's another really important one . Um , and also , just , you know , connect with yourself , meditate , practice mindfulness . Right , what would happen if you can become really present ? Cause , in this moment , right now , we're sitting here , right , we have a little , you know , sitting room in our bedroom and I'm I'm OK right now , like we're in the moment . There's nothing else that I'm thinking about right now , there's nothing else that I'm doing right now , and so it's just like getting in that moment and realizing that you know , in each moment , you know finding the contentment , just reminding yourself to find an anchor and bring yourself back into that moment , Because so often we do get lost in the thinking .
Speaker 1Yeah , and one of the things that you helped me with and something else that working with Jason Bruce helped me with was that somatic piece .
Speaker 2Right , and we've talked about that , my classmate that's very hard for a lot of people , though , because when we have traumatic experiences in our life and a lot of people do right , because trauma is not only a horrible thing that's occurred to you , but it can be something really small , like being teased or you know someone calling you even a nickname that you don't like of trauma in our lives , it's really hard to feel that you know , to kind of feel where it is , because we disassociate or we disconnect it from the body , and what you're going to talk about with the somatic piece is really going in , and I think you said he kept bringing it back to like what do you feel ? Where do you feel it ? What does it feel like and I do that a lot , too with clients is like you have to learn to connect with your body . What do I feel ? What are the actual physical symptoms that are coming up for me when these things happen ?
Speaker 1Right , and that's what folks forget . Right Is like your body is having a reaction to something because it is telling you that you need to either remove yourself from that thing or engage more with that thing . But it's telling you and a lot of times we are lying to ourselves- Because we ignore that feeling .
Speaker 2right we and that's very common . You and I talk about that a lot is that people ignore that . They know it's not right , but then they just do it anyway and then it's like wait a minute , what ? Oh , it didn't work out . I should have listened to myself . I knew that wasn't right .
Speaker 1Yeah , and that happens a lot and remember our buddy I won't say where or who , might have been the same job , but remember he talked about somebody that we that he worked with , that was throwing up in a garbage can three times a day .
Speaker 2I mean , if that is not a sign to you that that's not the right job for you , then you really need to go and find some support .
Speaker 1I think if I , if I think of my job , made me throw up one time , one time , not even three times a day on a regular basis , but one time I'd be , yeah , this is not for me , and so I think so . So , as we wrap up , the biggest , biggest thing that you can look at , especially for the fellas out there who you know and I've had a lot , I've sat down with a lot of men who are like well , you know what ? I don't understand why my heart is racing . I don't understand why , why my stomach is got butterflies or feels this way . Start listening to , to , to your , to your body . Start listening to the things and the signs that are going on and stop lying to yourself that everything's OK when it's not OK .
Speaker 2Absolutely , because that's what people do . And then they're like oh , it's OK , it's fine Right , that's that's the thing that a lot of clients say it's fine , right , but it's also OK if it's not Right , and that's I . Say that all the time .
Speaker 1It's OK to not always be OK Right , and that's I say that all the time it's OK to not always be OK . Yeah , yeah and well , I think that we've talked to this topic enough . Lindsay , do you have any final words ? Any final thoughts ?
Speaker 2I don't think so . I got to finish up the dinner soon .
Speaker 1Oh yeah , we're making the all the tomato sauce that I was trying to give away in the in the garden in the back . No comment , no comment .
Speaker 2There there's a lot of tomatoes . Sit in your feelings , I'm going to sit in my feelings . And are there any tomatoes left ?
Speaker 1Well , there's a hundred more .
Speaker 2Are there any more that are off the vine ? There are no more . No because I made some really nice tomato sauce .
Speaker 1Yes , yes , yes , I was lying to myself that you needed to get rid of all the tomatoes and give them to Alex , but , with that said , I want to thank our audience for tuning in and I want you to , guys . We have a new feature where you can text us directly from iTunes or other websites that we're on . So if you , if you , if you liked what you heard or want to join the discussion , follow up there Also . Hey , rate , review us , look for it , look and look for the next episode and recommend us to your friends . We are found on iTunes , spotify or wherever podcasts are sold . They're not sold . Well , some of them are .
Speaker 2Wherever you listen to your podcast . This is a better way to say it . So this has been Cleveland and Lindsay .
Speaker 1And this has been the devil . You don't know .
