The Devil You Don’t Know
In The Devil You Don’t Know, Lindsay, Cleveland, and their guests discuss personal growth and development by taking chances and getting out of your comfort zone. Topics range from whimsical to serious and everything in between but are always relevant to growth and development.
The Devil You Don’t Know
Who Did You Talk To? The Importance of Being an Approachable Parent Part One
Now, let's be honest: who hasn't had a good chuckle over a family mishap? We share a few of our own. You'll discover why an open-door policy does wonders and how setting healthy boundaries can be the secret sauce to nurturing well-rounded individuals. Plus, we don't skirt around the tricky bits – the dreaded empty nest syndrome and navigating school policies with humor and grace.
Finally, we'll wrap up with a hearty discussion on parenting styles that'll leave you pondering long after. Are some kids wound too tightly, or are others not wound enough? From heartfelt tales to the exploration of personal growth in careers and relationships, we examine how each thread weaves into the rich tapestry of childhood development. And because we can't resist a good cliffhanger, we tease an upcoming debate: the nature of good versus evil. So, buckle up for a ride on the parenting rollercoaster, and let's navigate the ups, downs, and loop-de-loops together.
Please email us at Gettoknowthedevil@gmail.com
This is Cleveland.
Lindsay Oakes:This is Lindsay.
Cleveland Oakes:And this is another episode of the Devil. You Don't Know, lindsay, what are we going to be talking about today?
Lindsay Oakes:Who did you talk to the importance of approachable parenting?
Cleveland Oakes:You know, one of the things that I've come across, especially as a counselor, are folks that struggle in their current relationships because they don't know how to talk to people, and it seems like, for a lot of people, learning on who you can count on and learning on who you can lean on is something that got missed or overlooked in childhood. What do you think about that?
Lindsay Oakes:Absolutely. What made me think about doing this episode was that I was actually listening to something where the therapist repeatedly asked the client who did you talk to? Who did you talk to, who did you talk to? And the client kept saying in the client who did you talk to? Who did you talk to? Who did you talk to? And the client kept saying in the demonstration my friends and the therapist said oh, so you didn't talk to your parents, right? And it was about some, some trauma that the child had, now an adult, that had experienced during childhood.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, it's interesting because I don't think a lot of parents don't really think about them as being, think of themselves as being approachable. I think it's, and it's a mix, right. What I've found is either parents are too controlling or too involved, or, in other cases, they're too distant, and so that this episode really focuses on how parents can build strong relationships with their children by being approachable and creating an open environment and in fostering trust and communication.
Lindsay Oakes:Right, and when I was listening to that I think I told you that I was tearing up a little, because I was like, oh my God, like I never felt like I could talk to my parents about things, and for that reason I often felt like there were a lot of topics that were, you know, kind of taboo, so to speak.
Cleveland Oakes:Your parents and my parents are from the same generation and I do think for boomers there was this idea that there are certain things that we don't talk about as much as I love.
Lindsay Oakes:Yes, I would agree with that.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, as much as I love dad, I think one of the things he we've got this episode on sex that he's like, oh, I'm not going to listen to that one because I don't know, they're probably talking about naughty stuff and so I do think that there's just an element from that generation that they're just not comfortable with expressing themselves, and a lot of folks that grew up with baby boomers and boomers as parents learn to not talk to their folks.
Lindsay Oakes:Well, and something that we've talked about before, too, is that it's it's sometimes it's difficult to talk to people, right, because there's embarrassment or not knowing how to respond, and one of the things that we talked about in another episode is also that I think we both grew up in a generation of just kind of develop a thick skin. Don't be so sensitive.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, for sure.
Lindsay Oakes:Right.
Cleveland Oakes:So it's like don't let things bother you, but then what happens is we end up giving the opposite message, which is like keep everything bottled up and push it down yeah sure, but before we jump into this, I know you had wanted to talk about both the devil of the week, which we haven't done for a while, and something good that you ate that we haven't done for a while. So I will start off with something good that I ate, and I think it was the toe. I don't want to mispronounce it because I said no, no, I'm not cursing on the pod anymore, so I want to make sure that this doesn't come out like a curse toe tofiken, tofiken fettuccine, which is, uh, tofu like tofu chicken like a chicken flavored tofu uh over fettuccine alfredo with peas and roasted peppers oh, that was amazing.
Cleveland Oakes:You did ask me, uh, earlier in the week. Uh, you packed it for me for lunch. And you did ask me earlier in the week did I enjoy it? And I told you it was the most amazing thing that I've eaten in a while.
Lindsay Oakes:So yes, I did enjoy it. Yeah, I think you said it was one of your like top five favorite things I've ever cooked.
Cleveland Oakes:Oh yeah, Amazing. I definitely would eat it again.
Lindsay Oakes:Did make you some pasta today, though how was that? Pasta today was pretty good. How did it rate?
Cleveland Oakes:with the toe-ficking, oh toe. Everything you do, you make, is out of the box. So I can't, I can't front on that.
Lindsay Oakes:But yeah, nothing I make is out of a box.
Cleveland Oakes:I mean knocks it out of the box, it knocks it out of the park. How about that? Devil of the week for me, I would say, is just inconsistent friends. I want to say had a friend reach out to me last week just randomly said, hey, tell your wife happy birthday. And I'm like bruh, her birthday's not for like eight months. So I don't, I don't, I don't know, yeah, it's longer than that. Her birthday's not until December.
Cleveland Oakes:Um, so I was like I don't know what you're talking about. And then you know, but I was like, hey, good to hear from you. Uh, let's catch up, let's get, let's connect, let's get some time on the, on the calendar together. And you know, set up an appointment with him that we were supposed to connect, have some drinks, and we'll set up some time for some boy time, some guy time. And then he just vanished, just disappeared, and so that's not unusual for that individual. No, not unusual. But you know what? I really like him a lot. He's in a, in a spot where he said he needed some help, and so I really wanted to be there for him. But, as we've learned his counselors and his friends is like you can't force, you can make. What's the saying? Muhammad can come to the mountain, but you can't make the mountain come to Muhammad.
Lindsay Oakes:So people can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink that that too.
Cleveland Oakes:So when you have people in your life that you care about, you know and it's something that I talk to clients about too you care about you can't really force them to care more than you do, right?
Lindsay Oakes:And so I really and I think, for some reason, people get embarrassed about their situations or uncomfortable and in the and this actually lends beautifully to what we're talking about today right, because if you have something going on, you should be able to talk to your friends. Right, without judgment, without criticism, and you should be able to know that a good friend is going to be there and listen and be supportive.
Cleveland Oakes:One of the things I always tell my counseling clients is I'm a judgment-free zone. You could pretty much come and tell me anything, and when I say anything I mean anything, and I think you're the same way as a counselor and I'm not going to judge you. I mean, I may, honestly, I may, think the shit was weird, but you know, I'm not going to, I'm not going to judge you. I'm really not going to judge you.
Lindsay Oakes:Yeah, that's something I've been thinking about too a lot with clients is I have to be careful of what I say, because I do have some very strong opinions on what people do. We all have opinions, but it's not really saying them out loud or being careful how you communicate with clients, because you don't want to put an idea in their head that something could be a certain way because you said something.
Cleveland Oakes:Right, right, and it goes back to, as your point says, it's a. It goes back to approachability. Right, I want to be an approachable counselor. I may have standards that I hold, but the standards that I hold for myself I don't hold for you. Right, and even though I did make a joke earlier, that stuff is weird and you know what, what? What may be weird for me might be normal for you, and I'm fine with that. And I do go into it with clients and I assume you do the same, Lindsay to let them know I am approachable, I am an open book and there is no judgment here. As long as what you were talking about is legal and there's no child abuse or elder abuse involved, you can talk to me about anything. But that was my Devil of the Week and also my Meal of the Week. So did you have a devil of the week or anything amazing that you ate that you'd like to talk about?
Lindsay Oakes:Well, I think my devil of the week right now is just that I want to kind of keep moving forward and phase out of the one job and more into another, and I really want to figure out what's going to happen next in our life. I really don't want to live here much longer and I'm starting to think about that. And coming back from vacation always makes it a little more challenging. In regards to what I ate, yeah, I had the Rebel Cheese Club came. I ordered the April Rebel Cheese Box, which I don't order the monthly boxes anymore because it's too much vegan cheese for us but I did order the monthly one because they were offering a special edition black garlic brie that you can order for like 20% off if you got the box, and so I did that. And yesterday we had a nice cheese plate and I love rebel cheese, I love the truffle brie, I liked the black garlic brie and I think you really loved the, the vegan bacon scallion oh yeah, that's.
Cleveland Oakes:Oh yeah, that was.
Lindsay Oakes:That was some good stuff, that was some yeah, we would be in trouble if they were near us well they are. I mean well, they do have not super near, but they are in manhattan at the essex streets market, right they are, but that would require you going down there and since you're so busy you don't have, and I definitely don't go to the city anymore.
Cleveland Oakes:So no, I do not have time so it's a good thing for us.
Lindsay Oakes:We just order it from their store in Texas and it's really fantastic yeah.
Cleveland Oakes:Good stuff, rebel cheese. If you were listening, please sponsor us.
Lindsay Oakes:We love some rebel cheese. I tell everybody who goes vegan I'm sorry to interrupt you that when they say, right, there was somebody from high school that I went to high school with that was posting on Facebook that she'd given up dairy, and she was really. That was like the hardest part for her in clean eating was giving up dairy and she was eating some of the bio life, which bio life is probably my favorite. Store bought vegan cheese but I said to her, oh, rebel cheese. And she's like, oh, I got to save for that. But oh, rebel cheese. And she's like, oh, I got to save for that, but it's just like a treat once in a while. It's a little bit expensive and it shouldn't be that expensive, but, as with everything vegan, it's always more expensive.
Cleveland Oakes:I honestly think, as time goes along and farming becomes more and more expensive, on that end at factory farming and dairy farming, and we saw this with Elmhurst, the Elmhurst.
Cleveland Oakes:Oh they switched from dairy to nut milk, to nut milks, because it was actually more profitable for them. I do think by default, for just economic reasons, that you will see more vegan options out there, but for right now, let's just jump into this topic. So the first thing I want to talk about in Lindsay, this is your topic, so I'm going to just add some color commentary as we go along. But I want to define what approachability is. Being approachable as a parent means creating a safe and open environment where children feel comfortable sharing their thoughts, feelings and experiences. It fosters a strong parent-child relationship based on trust, respect and understanding, and so expound on that a little bit.
Lindsay Oakes:Right and I think the important thing about that is it actually starts in infancy. It's not something that when you have teenagers and they're starting to have, you know, difficult times and go through things and have, you know some challenging life experiences that you need to be there for them. But creating an approachable environment starts in infancy that when you're you know you have a baby and when they need something and they cry that you come right and you help them and you meet their needs and that when they, instead of doing what we do in America, which is kind of like, oh, let them cry it out right Develop a thick skin, let them figure it out on their own Right. And it's really about letting kids know from a very early age that when they need us, we will be there.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, to me, that approach allows children to feel safe to discuss their thoughts, their feelings, their experiences, and contributes to a better emotional development and stronger family bonds. How is that different from helicopter parenting, though?
Lindsay Oakes:different from helicopter parenting, though. Well, I mean, helicopter parenting is so different from that right, because that's where the parent is hovering over the child and not letting them do anything and have any autonomy, not letting a child be authentic, whereas, on the other hand, right Approachability is, oh, you know what. They can come to me when they need something. I'm not hovering over them, yeah.
Cleveland Oakes:Or, and how is it different from and we've talked about it before how is it different from being enmeshed?
Lindsay Oakes:Well enmeshed. Enmeshed is almost like you're so tightly wound up into all of what the kids are doing right that you're actually like it's unhealthy that you know, almost know too much or pry too much or you're too involved. Whereas the approachability piece and I know we see this a lot because we, we are, we're very lucky because we have some really great kids and probably because of the way that we interact with them but they come to us right and there's not a fear in them, they're not afraid to ask for things, they don't feel embarrassed. They come to us and we go back and, you know, try to give them what they need or to support them or help them.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, it's one of the reasons why we have a lock on the door, because several times people have come to us in the middle of the night when things were happening and it's like, oh, there's a child suddenly in the. There's a child in the room. Oh, when did that happen?
Lindsay Oakes:mama, oh my god. And we're like, we think we're smart, we're like okay, it's like 10 o'clock, it's 10 o'clock and it's time now nah, yeah, yeah it's good, you know, even though you know the queen mom wound up, curled up in bed.
Cleveland Oakes:We were trying to have some, uh, grown and sexy time a couple of weeks ago and the queen mom, you know ended up had heartburn and ended up in bed with us. Uh, that kind of shut it down, but I did, in the mood, damp in the mood a lot. It was like here's a water, here's a whole bunch of water, just pour it all over you and the college drop-in did the same thing, but what?
Lindsay Oakes:I would say is, even though we're making fun of it. It is nice that, as he was like I just can't stop thinking about things that are going to happen when I go to college and I'm so scared and I don't know, is this normal? I think I'm going crazy and then you were like, no, it's normal. Yeah, and he was like, oh, all right, and he hung out with us and then he left.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, and he left, and I think that's important. What I have written down here for myself is that I would just, you know, put together for myself was active listening. Right Approachable parents truly listen to their children and give them full attention without interrupting or dismissing their feelings.
Lindsay Oakes:Yeah, actually very funny. So the queen mom is 16 and she's in an all girls high school and when she comes home she has all of the stories, all of the stories, the stories.
Lindsay Oakes:I've heard the stories. Sometimes she gets upset when I interrupt her, so I listen. But sometimes the interruption is necessary because if you have a 16 year old girl in high school, you know that the story has so many pieces and you probably don't know 95 of the people that are in the story. So she keeps yelling at me that I'm interrupting her and I'm no, I just need a little clarification because there's a lot of moving pieces in these stories Right.
Cleveland Oakes:Open communication also means that parents encourage open dialogue. And how is that different from an enmeshed family where everybody speaks like just over each other or freely? Or what does open dialogue look like in a healthy family?
Lindsay Oakes:well, I want to talk too about the active listening, and then I'll go into that a little bit. Okay, let's go back. Sometimes I don't really want to listen to what the kids have to say because in not in a mean way, right, I love them very much.
Lindsay Oakes:But sometimes, especially in the morning, I wake up very early so that I can have a cup of coffee before anyone else wakes up and so that I can do some you know paperwork, catch up on notes, do trainings, and she always wakes up right at the same time as me and then she starts talking the whole time and I get a little frustrated but I don't say anything because I know that she wants to talk to me and I want her to feel that she's not going to be shut down.
Lindsay Oakes:I don't want her to feel that she's not going to be shut down. I don't want her to feel like I'm disinterested. So that active listening piece is you know, I don't dismiss, even if I want to, because I know that there's also only a year left with her at home and I know that you know I was. It was hard when the college drop-in left for me and I cried for weeks, remember, yeah, so I don't know what it's going to be like. I know that you're very excited for the empty nest, but just be prepared for hot mess.
Lindsay Oakes:Lindsay, super excited for the empty nest and you'll, you'll be a hot mess for, like 30 seconds and then you realize, like oh, oh, that no one's going to interrupt the sexy time.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, no one's going to interrupt the sexy time, Um, but yeah, you know, active listening is important because it validates a child's emotions, thoughts, feelings and makes them feel valued. Right, If we were thinking about this as in a counseling way and parents, you guys are counselors in a way, this is very Rogerian, right? Carl Rogers would have called it person in a counseling setting. This is person-centered counseling. And in a parent in a parental setting, it's person-centered parenting. What do you think about that?
Lindsay Oakes:in a parental setting, it's person centered parenting. What do you think about that? Yeah, absolutely. And I think the open communication and the non judgment is just letting your kids come and express themselves. Because if you don't have that open communication I always say right, a good, a bad truth is better than a good lie. And by that I mean I want my kids to come to me. I don't want them to sneak around, do things get into trouble, something happens. And then it's just I always say to the kids what do I tell them? I don't like surprises. So if I get a call from somebody and I didn't know first, I'm probably going to be pretty upset because I'm pretty open-minded. But you know, and I just I try not to judge right. I mean, the queen mom did just have a detention this week. That was fun.
Lindsay Oakes:So the queen mom had a detention and it was my fault. So I did not read the handbook. It's very big in my defense. Does anybody read the high school handbook? Did you ever read a handbook? I've never read the handbook of anything.
Lindsay Oakes:So the queen mom had a dental appointment and I had to pick her up at 215. Dismissal's 250. I called the school. I said I had to pick her up. I went. They said just call when you get here. I got there, I called, everything was fine. They sent her out.
Lindsay Oakes:She went to the dentist the next week. She said mom, I got a detention and it's your fault. And I was like, oh, you didn't write a paper note so evidently at her school no one mentioned it to me when I called, I guess because they thought that I probably read the 500 page handbook which I don't even know. I don't even think I have a copy of it. It's probably online somewhere. So I got her the detention so I could not be upset with her for having the detention. And then she had a second detention because she used the bathroom for five minutes and 42 seconds instead of the five minutes that's allowed. Now she was not available to serve the detention and the assistant principal always emails about the detention to let you know your child has a detention. Detention is a mandatory obligation. Blah, blah, blah. This is when detention is conducted and I responded to him. I'm so sorry, but the queen mom is not able to attend this week.
Cleveland Oakes:And yes, that's how she actually put it in the note the queen mom.
Lindsay Oakes:And then I received a response back from him that said unfortunately that's not an option. I was like I am paying you to send my kid here and she has another appointment at the time of detention. So you know, we have an open communication she and I do, and we were able to work it all out with the school. But she's such a like a rock star that she will just come to us and say, like, listen, I had to go to the bathroom and it took more than five minutes. And you know, and that's the thing, I think that there's other parents who get upset. Right, there's judgment Well, what did you do? There's not the open communication. And because we have an open communication and we're pretty easygoing, I mean I think detention is just stupid. There were so many girls in the detention, by the way, that I almost wanted to call the school and tell them that, whatever they're, doing for discipline and consequences is not working.
Lindsay Oakes:Obviously, I mean 70 girls in detention. That's ridiculous. It's like a very small school.
Cleveland Oakes:There's like 72 girls in the whole school. Half of them were in uh. Over half of them were in detention. 70 of them were in detention.
Lindsay Oakes:No, that's not true but you know what I mean. So it's, it's, you know, not having a judgment right and letting your kids feel safe to come to you and say, hey, I did this Right, because there's no. I mean, she's a, she is a rock star. We talked about it last week, and so she's, right now, our only real parenting that's going on on a consistent basis, because she's the only one that lives with us.
Cleveland Oakes:Can I let me ask you a question? Sure, how Is non, a nonjudgmental attitude, different than permissiveness? And I want to think about some folks that we have in our lives and it was even something that we talked about when you first met me is being knowing too much about what your kids are doing. Right, how is it? You know? How is it? Hey, mom, I've slept with like 10 guys or 10 girls. How is that different? How is, how is you know, being nonjudgmental different than being permissive?
Lindsay Oakes:Well, well, they're very different things right? Permissive is just allowing somebody to do something right, and being nonjudgmental is learning what someone's done right when they come to you to tell you something, and not being openly critical about it or criticizing what they did, but maybe talking to them about it and having a conversation about what could be done differently next time. Or you know a different way to look at yourself. I mean the situation. I know what you're talking about and that situation is a big, big mental health kind of self-worth situation.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, but even when I think about Jesus as a counselor and I talk about Jesus every week it is just that Jesus didn't judge anybody. He would always let folks ask him a series of questions. He would ask questions back and then let people come to their own decision on what it was. It helps children feel safe in the share, an uncomfortable or sensitive topic, but you are still going to be firm as a as a counselor, as a parent, and come back and guide them to to safety and not to permissiveness. Right, because I think the goal and I think what people get confused is you can be nonjudgmental but still be apparent. Right, you can communicate and still be firm with what what?
Lindsay Oakes:with what's right and what's wrong and what's helpful and what's not helpful Right, and what's right and wrong for us in our house is different. Right, the boundaries Right. You know I'm big on boundaries and what the rules are in the house, and that's. That's not judgment. There's open communication about it and it's just that there's certain things that are not allowed here and we do not allow them.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, but they may be allowed in other places. And then when let's talk about boundaries and respect for boundaries, so parents who are approachable respect their children. Boundaries, but in what way? Right, what is respecting your child's boundary for privacy in your mind?
Lindsay Oakes:I think for me personally as a parent, it is allowing my kids to have some autonomy and independence. However, if there is something going on or you know something has been brought to my attention, then sometimes you do have to be a little bit more invasive and you do have to check things out. I have had to go into the queen mom's room before, um, but you know it's. You do have to respect people's boundaries and, like I said earlier, honestly she's like a great example, because I even talked to her therapist last week and I'm like she's a rock star. This is a kid two years ago who was so different and you even said last week well, I shouldn't have said that she should have stopped therapy.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, yeah, yeah, I, I, I, I do agree with that that. Yeah, I thought therapy wasn't working for her, but you stuck with it. You were very clear with your intent and your intentions and look at it and it's really worked out really well. I want to ask you, how does flexibility and adaptability play into uh, into all of this?
Lindsay Oakes:You have to be flexible with kids all the time, because you pretty much do whatever they need you to do and you come last. So, um, I mean, we adapt all the time right Schedule changes, school projects needs, an outfit for this, has to do that, needs to be here, needs to. I mean, today we're driving to grand central to pick her up at five 30 on a Sunday, right? So it's just about you know you do. You, you're a parent. When you sign up to be a parent, right? You are making a decision that you need to do certain things for certain people and that your needs come after theirs.
Cleveland Oakes:What do you consider as non-intrusive guidance?
Lindsay Oakes:Um, I think with with uh, the college drop in, right, he's a good example for non-intrusive guidance, right, saying hey, let's look at some of these options that you're talking about, right, and see what might work for you but also what might not work for you, Right? So it's kind of looking at both sides of it, because sometimes kids can get really stuck on something. I try not to shoot them down or you know crap on their decisions and their choices, because I think it's really important for them to have an interest in what they do and to be able to, you know, kind of follow that path that they want to take, and so I think it's it's kind of like almost like encouragement, but also offering some support and maybe some advice if they need it.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, Matt Wilpers at Peloton often talks about, and Dennis also. They both my boyfriend. They often talk about consistency and reliability, dennis and Sam, you know, by the way just as a side note, they're both my boy, all three, all three.
Cleveland Oakes:No, not Matt, Not Matt. Oh, poor Matt, poor Matt, you're my favorite. Oh, thank you, though, but they both talk about consistency and reliability. Especially consistency, and when I think about a consistent parent, or an approachable parent, is that they're consistent with their actions and responses. Right, one of the things that Jordan Hart Right, the rules can't change. The rules can't change. One of the things that Jordan Harbinger talks about is, if you have to game someone right, where you have to figure out, well, what mood are they in today? What mood is mom in today? What mood is dad in today? What mood is this person in today? How does consistency and reliability play into open communication?
Lindsay Oakes:Well, with consistency and reliability. You are, you know. You know what you're going to get right. I am who I am and so I think for me, when it comes to parenting and nurturing the kids, they know what they're going to get with me. Yeah, when I think there's consistency there, I don't change who I am based on certain things. I don't say yes one day and know the next, Right and that's, and that's also that boundaries and the rules play into that as well.
Cleveland Oakes:Right, right. And not to pick on mom and dad in Florida, or even, or even, or even a Cleveland gene. So what does it mean? To be supportive and encouraging, as, as a, as an approachable parent.
Lindsay Oakes:Being supportive is being there right, listening not only listening, but allowing your kids to try things out and to follow their dreams and to do the things that they want to do.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, I can tell a story from my adulthood. I kind of I didn't have confidence in myself. It would have. It would have really taken me aback. But I remember a few years before I met you and I had just gotten divorced, I was talking to my mom no, you didn't. Well, yeah, that's right, I was separated. Thank you for correcting me. And I was, and I was separated. And I was separated. I was talking to my mom and dad about dating and they were like they were very, they were the opposite of encouraging. So when I was talking to my mom and dad about dating, and they were like they were very, they were the opposite of encouraging. So when I was talking about dating and and my mom was like, and guys, I'm gonna say this story, and my parents are black, um, and my mom says to me baby, you gonna date women. And I'm like, yeah, who gonna like you? I was like why?
Lindsay Oakes:you so, black baby, love your mom.
Cleveland Oakes:Ain't nobody, you black and I was like ma, that doesn't mean anything, I can get any woman I want to. Which she laughed her head off and she's like big clee, come over here what you want, gene. This boy just said some crazy stuff. Uh, gene, what he said? He said he could get any woman he wanted. You know what my father said, but he black. So now, thank God, I was a 40 year old man when this conversation happened and my parents didn't mean anything bad by it. Maybe they were just pulling my leg. I don't think so, because you know, my mom always talks about how I is the darkest one.
Lindsay Oakes:Yeah, your mom is, she likes the light skin.
Cleveland Oakes:She's a little. She's a little colorist right.
Lindsay Oakes:She loves the white hair.
Cleveland Oakes:She always asks if she can run her fingers through my hair but it is important, despite you know my mom would deny to this day, and if she listens to this episode I'm going to be in a lot of trouble. But to this day you really are.
Lindsay Oakes:And you know the other thing your mom always says how my white?
Cleveland Oakes:grandbabies. But to this day, thank God, I didn't take that and I really didn't have any problem with what my mom and dad said, because, you know, I just I take them with a grain of salt, but for somebody else that might've been discouraging. You know, and my mom and dad like to, they like to rib me from time to time and so I take it like that, but I do think it's important to be supportive and encouraging. And and and lens, I think part of your own story and we talked about this with the college drop-in is your folks weren't very supportive about your choice um in a major and how did that work out for you? And then, how did you apply that with the college drop-in?
Lindsay Oakes:Well, it worked out okay for me because I did what I wanted anyway, which is typically what I do yeah with with him. Well, I I encouraged him to study something he enjoys and we're actually his. His college experience is a little bit different because he goes to a very exclusive liberal arts college and they don't allow you to choose a major until the end of your sophomore year. And they don't allow you to choose a major until the end of your sophomore year. Most students who start out with one major change which is why they did that because they want you to take a variety of different classes in different subject areas to really gauge your interests. And he took sociology class and he loved it. And he went proactively, went to his advisor or to his sociology professor and talked to him about what kinds of opportunities there are for careers, what the classes look like, and you know he decided that he wanted to be a sociology major.
Lindsay Oakes:And I do have to say that my mother did have some things to say about it. Well, what's he going to do? He's not going to make any money. Have some things to say about it. Well, what's he going to do? He's not going to make any money. But he came to us with a whole list of careers that you can have when you have a sociology major, and the other day I was listening to someone say that there was actually this is actually very interesting kind of ties into our topic. There's a sociologist and I'll have to look up who it is who lived with the pygmy tribe. I was telling you this and the one thing that this sociologist noticed in the years that he spent living with this tribe and really engrossed in their day to day was that they never, ever, lay a hand on their children, right, and there's this really nurturing parenting going on, and it's never. There's never like any physical violence happening in the home. And I thought, oh, the college drop in would probably like love to go and live somewhere amongst a tribe and not see anybody for a while. Yeah, I can imagine that, right, but we encouraged him to to.
Lindsay Oakes:Really, when he started at college, remember, he was like, oh, I'm going to go into business, I'm going to go into business. But then he was miserable his first semester and we encouraged him to take a variety of classes and to see what his interests are and he came into this on his own because we did not push him in one direction or another. When he had electives to take, he found sociology. We did not push anything else. Next semester, I think, he's taking African studies and the development of rap music. I don't know if you knew this. He's very excited about that because he wanted to do that over Chinese brush painting. Ok, right, so we just encouraged him and you know, the interesting thing is, I'm not worried about him at all. I'm not worried about him at all. I'm not worried about him in life. I think he's going to go and he's going to study what he wants to study and I think he's going to be very successful and I think that you would agree.
Cleveland Oakes:Yes, yes, I would.
Lindsay Oakes:You know he even in high school, all the things that he does, he is very self-motivated, because we have that kind of relationship with him where there's certain things that we won't tolerate but then we're pretty loosey goosey on a lot of other things, but when, when we have boundaries and rules, those rules are hard.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, yeah, I totally agree with that. I want to ask you, um, as we start to transition out of this, though, what is the importance of modeling positive behavior? And I'll answer that before you jump in and answer it. Positive behavior is approachable means that the folks that you guys are modeling positive communication between yourselves, that the children or the other people in the house are watching. A lot of times when I sit down with couples and couples counseling, they have had very poor to no role models in communication and it really impacts their. It says, as Gabor Mate talked about. I know you said the sins of the father, right, and in this case, modeling poor behavior really is sins of the father, because these children now take this poor behavior that they've seen in bad communication and closed communication and now take it and ruin their new families with it. So, lindsay, I want you to speak about that for a little bit.
Lindsay Oakes:Well, I think a big thing I tell clients who are struggling is, if you want to work it out, you have to work it out and you have to let go of certain things that have happened and focus more on the positives. However, when you model a certain behavior, your children think that that behavior is how they should be. And I say that especially with couples in very tumultuous relationships is what are you teaching? And I can use a couple that I no longer see, but I had a couple and they split but they only came a couple of sessions because she wanted to really work it out and he was very much, didn't want to be there, and she said I want to stay here in the marriage because I was a product of divorce and I know how it impacted me and in my head I thought right, but all of this behavior around your child says to her that it is OK to let a man treat you this way.
Cleveland Oakes:Right, Right right.
Lindsay Oakes:And so you're passing on that it is okay to be treated this way and that you are not having an equal say in things or having healthy communication. I know our kids get especially the college drop-in. If we get into an argument he gets very upset. But we do tell him no, people don't see eye to eye on everything. Yes, right, and fighting is okay, but you have to fight nicely, right. And I like to think that we argue kind of nicely when we don't see eye to eye on something and it just like. You also have to just take accountability for it, and that's something that we teach our kids Right.
Lindsay Oakes:And I think just as much as the positive behavior is how you treat each other, it's also how you resolve conflict and how you argue with each other. Right, because arguing is natural. No one is going to see eye to eye, but if you model for your children healthy arguing, I always tell my clients right, argue kindly. Don't argue with the name calling and the finger pointing. Argue with what's happening within you in a situation, and so it teaches our kids especially right. This is how you should have an interaction with someone. You don't have to see eye to eye and you don't have to agree and you don't have to say, okay, I'm going to just say this because that person believes it, but you can. We've said it in another podcast too is like you can tell the truth kindly and you can argue kindly with your partner, and then you can tell the truth kindly and you can argue kindly with your partner, and then you can apologize or take any accountability for anything that you might have done.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, yeah, that's true. I can't really add anything more to that. I want to talk a little bit about the benefits of being approachable. There are a lot of folks out there that are listening. Well, you know, I come from a family where we were tough and we didn't. We didn't share our feelings and you guys are soft. So what are the benefits? Can you think of some of the benefits of being approachable as a parent?
Lindsay Oakes:The kids come to us when they have a problem. My kids know and I mean I should say mine, but yours too, right? Our kids, they know there's. No, I don't want to surprise. Yeah, I do not like surprises. So it is much better for you to come to me and we can come up with a solution together than it is for me to find out from someone else.
Cleveland Oakes:And I always say that Right. So sometimes the kids like the college drop in. He was very reluctant to tell you so I had to go back and get like fact check. But the college drop in you know, stole the family car in the summertime.
Lindsay Oakes:No, it was not in the summer. When was it? When was it? Oh, it wasn't in the summertime.
Cleveland Oakes:It was recently I was on vacation. Yeah, that's right.
Lindsay Oakes:And you were here responsible for the children.
Cleveland Oakes:In January, see I just yes. Yes, it was happening in January.
Lindsay Oakes:And you were here responsible for the children and you didn't even know he took the car for a joyride. Yeah, a joy ride.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, yeah, but when I? Yeah. But when I asked him about it he was, oh yeah, I took it to the city and I was like, oh okay. But then when you asked him about it, he was like oh, I just took it to the train station.
Lindsay Oakes:I just you know. And I was like, did you have your friends in the car? He said yes. The only reason I knew he used the car was because, first of all, he left the window open and it had rained, so the inside of the car was wet, but I'm vegan and he left beef jerky in the car, like that's the other thing about kids, right On a side note, is that they do this stuff and then they don't remember to clean up after themselves. And I'm like you ratted yourself out, dude. I never would have known. The car was parked right back up in the driveway where I park it, and I never would have known.
Cleveland Oakes:But but one of the good things is is, even though he was scared to tell you and and I went back into him, it was like, and you spoke to him too, it was like, dude, you got to tell me. The truth is that we it wasn't a major flip out, it wasn't a major freak out, it was like, you know, because I told him hey, she's very scared to let you drive the car because she doesn't think you know how to drive. I think you should tell her the truth that you drove to the city and he was like oh, no, it's not that I know that he knows how to drive. Yeah.
Lindsay Oakes:But this is a perfect example of what belongs to me, which is my own anxiety. Right, I fear it's not even him, it's the other drivers around on the road. No, he did come clean with me because I asked him and my only point with him was I have to trust you and so if you're going to do something, you need to be honest with us about what you're doing, because that is my car and you are going to lose the privilege of using the car if you're not honest. And he said OK, that was it. There was no yelling, there was no fighting, it was just. This is the rule. I and you know I have severe anxiety about going away this summer and leaving him with the vehicle, but we'll deal with that another day. But we did, we had a conversation about it and that was it, and we don't need to talk about it anymore.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, that's true. So it strengthens trust, right, I'm going to go through a couple of things here, and I want you to stop me when you feel that, when there's one that you really want to talk about, but it in the the benefits of being approachable, and not only does it strengthens trust, as we had in that, in that situation, and even with the queen mom um, we've had incidences with her and I had to have blunt conversations with her about stuff where you know she comes and talks to us. Now, right, where I talked to her, I said something to her once. Like you know, you may think those people are your friends, but I'm here with you right now. Me and mom are here with you right now and you need to talk to us. And so it strengthens trust, it enhances the emotional connection, it promotes problem solving, it reduces misunderstandings right, because, as you like to say, lindsay, a bad truth is far better than a good lie.
Lindsay Oakes:Absolutely.
Cleveland Oakes:You know, it actually even encourages independence.
Lindsay Oakes:It is autonomy right. Let's kids make their own decisions and learn from their own mistakes. And that's really important too, because when we stifle kids, they don't make their mistakes, but then when they're off on their own later, they make the mistake, and when you're an adult it's much harder.
Cleveland Oakes:Right right. It encourages emotional regulation. It facilitates early intervention. It supports a lifelong relationship. I remember listening to a sermon once where a gentleman was in his 60s and he was talking about his mom had passed away, maybe like 10 years prior, talking about his mom had passed away maybe like 10 years prior, and he was like I still think about what my mom would want. And he was like my relationship with my mom and dad was so good that even though I they are not on this planet anymore, I still have that person. That speaker said he still has a lifelong relationship with his mom because they established two way communication and so, even though that person, that his mom and dad were far, were long gone, he still felt that he had them in his life to trust and talk to, even though they physically weren't there.
Lindsay Oakes:I think that's a really important point to make too, because I have a client who I have worked with in the past and the big overarching theme in his life was that he was never really heard or supported.
Lindsay Oakes:And you know, he had had a lot of struggles in his childhood and he wasn't raised by his own parents because of some issues with drugs and addiction and things like that, and even to this day he would be very, very triggered by people not hearing him and not listening, and in seventh grade he was expelled. And so to me that's like a cry for help, not a label of a bad kid. Right, and that's a mistake that we make is by not getting under the surface behavior. Right, and that's a mistake that we make is by not getting under the surface behavior. Right. Kids are not getting expelled from school at 13 years old because they want to be a problem Right, but they don't know how to be any other way because they don't have a support system and so they have to kind of almost defend themselves. They don't have anybody, it's only them, it's them against the world and they have to protect themselves.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, Despite me clowning on my mom with the black thing, my mom actually went to, took Montessori training, and that is you just made me think of that part of the Montessori philosophy. Is not labeling kids is being approachable, is not it's?
Lindsay Oakes:also. It's like child choice, right, is what Montessori is, which is letting kids make a choice, and that's a huge. I mean, we can have a whole episode on the what's wrong with the education system, especially in New York City, but in the country, really, and it is. It's that autonomy that we talked about earlier. Why should I be choosing the college drop-ins major? I'm not him, I'm not living his life. Right, he should be able to have some autonomy. This is what interests me. This is what I'm going to study.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, it's interesting, right, because not only does it, it's weird, right, it's a weird juxtaposition because at the same time, it provides autonomy, but then it also gives kids the skill to ask for advice when they're out of their depth. Right and families where open communication is encouraged, children are more likely to approach their parents for advice and support, and since they trust their parents, they will take them seriously when helpful guidance is offered is. I've tried this with my own kids and we saw what happened with uh, with princess peach last week in her vacation to Puerto Rico, where she did not ask me any advice and tried to fly standby during spring break, and what ended up happening with that lens.
Lindsay Oakes:Well, we just, you know, she does just say she didn't really make it.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, she didn't need a little help. She needed a little help and we had to help her, which she was very thankful for.
Cleveland Oakes:But I was like if you would have told me that you were going to fly on standby on spring break to Puerto Rico, I would have talked to you about it. Oh, I just wanted to do this one on my own. I'm 26. And I'm like that's fine, I'm 50, but I wouldn't fly to space without talking to an astronaut first, because I need to understand the rules. And so this is your first big trip. You know you should have talked to us, and you know she did afterward and we stayed in communication while she was in Puerto Rico and she ended up having a good time, but it would have been helpful for her. If you know, maybe it was my fault there that she didn't feel that she could approach me on it, but that's the importance of having you know being an approachable parent.
Lindsay Oakes:I think you've worked on your approachability, and so have I. I noticed for myself, and you could speak for you. I used to get really here's. Here's one thing I thought of the other day. Right, is that there's? I used to be. There was a time where I would get really angry when the kids did something, and now I'm just like, eh, it is what it is. Okay, well, let's resolve it. Let's solve it, and I don't really let it get to me or get in the way of me having a good day.
Cleveland Oakes:One of the reasons why kids won't come talk to you is because of the fear of rejection or punishment. And listen, there are going to be repercussions for if something bad happens.
Lindsay Oakes:Kids do stupid shit. They do stupid stuff all the time and they're just kids and so you know what? Like it doesn't really matter. You could sit there and you could call them names and you could criticize them and you can judge them, but they're still going to go and do it because you are always the expert everywhere except in your own home.
Cleveland Oakes:Right, right right.
Lindsay Oakes:So, even though you know the mistakes that are going to happen before they happen, it doesn't matter if you tell them or not, because they're still going to do it anyway.
Cleveland Oakes:And then, once again, we are not encouraging permissiveness, so we're not saying, if your kid does something foolish, that there shouldn't be repercussions to the actions, because that's how life works, and I do think, as a parent, that is important to let kids know there's repercussions to actions, but what? One of the things that I told Lindsay is, and one of the reasons why you were able to reduce your anger, is if you're going to go to jail for everything, then I might as well do anything Right, and so, understanding that there's a difference between skipping school and murdering somebody, they need two different levels of response and I think what messes parents up is, you know, is everything is, is is capital punishment. And when everything is capital punishment in these, in a relationship with the kid, the kid is just going to just do anything. That's what I found. What do you think about that lens?
Lindsay Oakes:Absolutely, I absolutely agree. I think that you have to. You know you have your kids have to know that you're approachable and that there's going to be some strong consequences for specific behaviors and that other things are a little bit more permissive. But yes, I think and the other problem is too is that when you reject or punish your kids for everything they do, they're going to come on 10 times harder, right, right, and we've seen that with the oldest one, right, my oldest one is that he has really, really struggled and everybody, like you know, just looked at what his challenges were and used those things against him, which I think has severely impacted, you know, his own kind of well-being and self-esteem.
Lindsay Oakes:And I remember when he was in high school and they were like I hope he could get it together and I was like, well, don't you think if he knew how he would, yeah, right. And you know we'll talk about that in another episode, because I think that you know he does have ADHD and I've been reading a lot about that lately and listening to some things, and I don't know if you've heard of that book called Scattered Minds, but it's a very interesting take on ADHD, so I'd like to talk about that in a whole episode on its own. But in regards to the parenting, we parented him, I think, a little bit differently than the other two, given his special needs, and I think that definitely impacted him in a in a certain way.
Cleveland Oakes:I want to stick on this topic for a little bit, and I am going to be one that I do believe in discipline. I do believe that you know actions, that certain actions need repercussions, but strict, authoritarian parenting styles create a sense of fear and repression where children will hesitate, they will hesitate to approach you due to a harsh punishment and fear. Harsh due to a fear of harsh punishment, punishment or judgment.
Lindsay Oakes:I want to just interrupt you for a minute because I find that you are such a permissive parent. Yeah, you think I'm super permissive.
Cleveland Oakes:Well, because people got to figure it out. Well, here's one of the things that I learned, and so I grew up as a Jehovah's witness, which is a very strict religion, but as strict as it is. I remember in one of the books, one of our Bible study publications at the time, it compared strict parents as a parent that held their kid as a spring that was too tightly wound Right, and what would happen to a spring that's too tightly wound Lens, when you let that spring go, what happens?
Lindsay Oakes:It flies across the room.
Cleveland Oakes:It flies across the room. It flies across the room. And then it gave the other example of parents that were overly permissive, that let their kids do anything, and that the spring was stretched out. And so a spring that's stretched out is no good right when I think about kids whose parents held them too tightly, wound and lens. You went to college, um, and I've had kids and friends who went to college.
Lindsay Oakes:I didn't get a chance to go. Well, you're also forgetting that I went to college before there were cell phones, and so if my parents called I remember when my sister went to college if I wanted to talk to her, I had to call the hall phone and, like a random person from the floor, answered and they'd have to go knock on her door. So we I went to college at a very different time, which you know it was you had, if you, if your parents were knowing what you were doing, you'd have to be talking to them multiple times a day, right? Which is why I think technology, in a way, is negative, because we know too much now.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, but one of the examples I wanted to bring out is all my friends who went to college said that the kids who burned up and you can definitely speak to this because you lived on campus that the kids who burned up immediately were the ones that you could tell they came from a home where mom and dad didn't let them do anything amazing and that you know he, you know, accredited his success too. And I've talked to other folks. I was like, yeah, you know what, my parents pretty much you know we had a good relationship, but my parents, let me figure stuff out in high school. And so when, when he got to college, he didn't have a desire to do any of that crazy stuff because he had already worked all of that stuff out of his system Right, he had already. You know, he wasn't that spring that was tightly wound.
Lindsay Oakes:Right, I mean, I think I mean my parents, I mean we did stuff in high school, you know, because you've heard the stories. Oh yeah, I've heard the stories.
Lindsay Oakes:And high school and college. But I mean, I also my dad. I kind of got my younger partying ways from him, so I don't think they expected much different from us. We all know how to have a good time, Thanks, dad, but I didn't. You know, I don't know. I think it was also a balance of I knew my dad had a good time in college because he got kicked out the first time.
Cleveland Oakes:We don't, we won't. I don't think Papa, papa wants anybody to know that.
Lindsay Oakes:And then he said and then you know. So he knew how we were Cause I? Here's a funny story I don't know if you heard this one. I used to have a fake ID and he found it in my room one day and he was like, who is Jennifer Brantseforte? And I was like, oh, that's me when I go out. He's like don't call me if you get caught.
Lindsay Oakes:But you know, he knew what we were doing, but it was also the stuff that kids did. Yes, but I also think that my parents had instilled in us the need for a, an education and for future success, and my parents were both very hardworking. So I had that model and we talked about modeling earlier and so I think for me, I had a balance of fun and partying and then getting good grades, and because of that I was able to have a successful experience. So I think it depends on the message that you're getting from home. My parents we did. I was allowed to go out. Yes, Did I get in trouble? Sure, Every teenager did. But they instilled in us what we needed to do, and so, in that way, I knew that I could not go to college and mess up in my classes. I knew that, because it would not have been okay.
Cleveland Oakes:One of the ways that you can overcome strict discipline is parents can adopt a balanced approach to discipline by focusing on setting clear expectations, offering explanations and using positive reinforcement, rather than focusing solely on punishment. I was trying to say punishment and judgment at the same time, solely on punishment.
Cleveland Oakes:It's going to be a new word that you created, pudgement and they can guide children with patience and empathy. This couple is when I think of strict discipline. Also I think of high expectations. Right, and I think that's another one where communication breaks down when parents impose and I can think about once again, not to pick on your folks, but when parents impose unrealistic expectations on children and expect them to meet their standard. I know in your case you wanted to be a teacher and your folks were like that's not the expectation that they had for you. So speak to that a little bit.
Lindsay Oakes:Well, I think that's a lot of parents. I think that there's expectations I also in in in their defense too in this. Now that I look at it, I don't think that they realize that I can do the job that I do with that degree Right, and so what they were envisioning was maybe like sitting in a classroom all day and making $30,000 or $40,000 a year, after you know, being there for years and not being able to live because, you know, teachers are not known to be in a really lucrative profession and you know that's. You know I have a lot of opinions about that as well. But I don't think that they expected that I would do what I did, yeah, and but I was always the one who decided to do what I wanted to do Right.
Lindsay Oakes:I came home, I left, I moved to New York city, I lived in Brooklyn for a while. I've done all these things. That, and both of my siblings are pretty much like my sister right is right back in her college town or close to my brother is right near where we grew up. So I was the only one who really kind of like branched out and did something and really kind of stepped out of the comfort zone and I think after a while they started to just expect that from me. Yeah, and I really don't follow the rules, you know.
Cleveland Oakes:I don't do. Yeah, I have to follow your rules, which are, with their, great rules.
Lindsay Oakes:But let's talk about that for a minute. What rules do you have to?
Cleveland Oakes:follow. I follow none of them.
Lindsay Oakes:You do not follow any rules. I know you're trying to make me look bad.
Cleveland Oakes:I follow no rules. Even folks at work know this. But I want to continue on this, this idea of high expectations. Right Cause, even using my own background, I was expected to be a minister in the congregation. Right, I was expected to be an elder or a circuit overseer or a district overseer. All these, these were the expectations that were put upon me and, and because of these unrealistic expectations that were put upon me, I didn't accomplish a lot of what I wanted to do. It makes me think of the scripture in the Bhagavad Gita, which is you can live the dharma of another one perfectly, but it's more important to live your dharma poorly, because living the dharma of another one perfectly invites great danger.
Lindsay Oakes:Oh, look at you remembering. Yeah, I remembered it. It's better to live your own dharma poorly than the dharma of another. Well, the dharma of another invites great danger.
Cleveland Oakes:Yeah, and so, thinking of that, it's parents set who set unrealistic expectations and focus on, and focus on judgment rather than encouragement. You're going to force your kid into a lifestyle that they don't. That doesn't necessarily suit them, right? It always. It always bugs me out when you know people are, when people you know disown children because of of of a lifestyle choice, right? So when you put your expectations on your child, you're actually like doing them more harm than good because you're forcing them to live a life that's not true to them, right? And one of the things that always bugs me out is, I think, if your child, unless they're committing crimes, unless they're on drugs, unless they're just an evil person, I think it's important to just let your child live their life, let them live their truth.
Lindsay Oakes:Absolutely. But I do want to ask do you think that people are actually?
Cleveland Oakes:evil? Yes, I do think that's a whole different topic. Yes, but I do think there are some people who are straight up evil.
Lindsay Oakes:Yes, yes, Don't you think that's a result of their lack of connection, as a child, to a caregiver?
Cleveland Oakes:That's a tough you know what. We can definitely debate that in another episode, but no, I will stick to that. And I do think certain people, uh, you know what one of my first episodes that we did was even God has the devil, and I don't think there's anything necessarily that, that if you believe in the Bible that God did as a parent that made the devil the devil. Maybe he did, I don't know, but I do think that people choose. I think people choose to make a choice to be good or evil, and I do think there and I will never change my opinion on it I do think there are some rotten, evil people in the world. You know that. You know, when we make rules that are supposed to benefit everyone, you get a certain amount of people who are just wicked and they just were like well, how can I benefit myself? Right? And I think it's really important to understand that there are some just bad actors out there.
Lindsay Oakes:That's interesting, because I actually do not agree with that. But we can debate that in another show.
Cleveland Oakes:Oh we definitely can debate that in another show. I think we're coming up on an hour here, so I think this might be a good place to stop, and then we can definitely get into a part two of what it is to be an approachable parent. What do you think about that?
Lindsay Oakes:I think that sounds great.
Cleveland Oakes:Okay. So, guys, if you enjoyed this episode, we're going to get into a part two, where we will go over a little more of how you can be an approachable parent in part two.
Lindsay Oakes:Yeah, you're waiting for me to say something.
Cleveland Oakes:I was waiting for you to say a lot of things.
Lindsay Oakes:All right. Well, this has been another episode of.
Cleveland Oakes:The Devil. You Don't Know. This has been Cleveland.
Lindsay Oakes:And Lindsay.
Cleveland Oakes:And we'll see you in part two next time. But I can't get my own.
Speaker 3:I'm not that nice. I lied to you that I was only you. I'm sorry, I really didn't know how to love you. Honestly, I probably shouldn't have with you. I'm not that nice.
